All are redeemed says Pope.

[Iti oj]

All who do good are redeemed through Christ, says the Pope.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

good stance, good points, and good deceleration in my opinion. I think this is a good sign for the church and I hope the Pope continues with this as an agenda. I think the world needs more of this.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear iti :angel2:

Thank you for putting up the thread!

Yes I agree with you, and the Holy Father naturally as well, that the most important thing is simply "doing good" and that all people are redeemed in Christ, including our atheist brothers and sisters. Beautiful words.

I should note that Francis has been, to my mind, exemplary from the first moment he was elected. When he walked out on that balcony and asked everyone to pray for and bless him, rather than the reverse, I knew we were in for something special.

I can only hope that a fresh outpouring and a new springtime has come for Catholics worldwide with our Pope Francis, after the difficult period we have been through these past years. So far, the signs are very encouraging. May God bless the pope in his work and use him as an instrument of His Will.

Hans Kung wrote a good article on NCR yesterday about Francis:

It is astonishing how, from the first minute of his election, Pope Francis chose a new style: unlike his predecessor, no miter with gold and jewels, no ermine-trimmed cape, no made-to-measure red shoes and headwear, no magnificent throne.

Astonishing, too, that the new pope deliberately abstains from solemn gestures and high-flown rhetoric and speaks in the language of the people.

And finally it is astonishing how the new pope emphasizes his humanity: He asked for the prayers of the people before he gave them his blessing; settled his own hotel bill like anybody else; showed his friendliness to the cardinals in the coach, in their shared residence, at the official goodbye; washed the feet of young prisoners, including those of a young Muslim woman. A pope who demonstrates that he is a man with his feet on the ground.

I should probably also say though that the Catholic Church has taught for 50 years now since Vatican II , doctrinally, that non-Christians and atheists can receive salvation ie

"...Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life..."

- Vatican II [Lumen Gentium 16]

"...The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990)

"...The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men...Though We speak firmly and clearly in defence of religion, and of those human, spiritual values which it proclaims and cherishes, Our pastoral solicitude nevertheless prompts Us to probe into the mind of the modern atheist, in an effort to understand the reasons for his mental turmoil and his denial of God. They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine. This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary. It proves that nothing can tear from their hearts their yearning for God, the first and final cause of all things. It is the task of our teaching Office to reveal to them, with patience and wisdom, that all these things are immanent in human nature and transcend it. Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this. It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church..."

- ECCLESIAM SUAM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI , AUGUST 6, 1964

The important thing is hearing this said so beautifully, clearly and explicitly before the world by the pope - not wrapped up in theological garb - so as to fully seep down to the level of popular lay consciousness, where I think there has been a disconnect and deficit for many years (and I hold the teachers of the flock responsible).

 

[LuisDantas]

That is definitely good news and a well-chosen step in the Vatican's policy. Congratulations for all Catholics.

 

[Iti oj]

Dear iti :angel2:

Thank you for putting up the thread!

Yes I agree with you, and the Holy Father naturally as well, that the most important thing is simply "doing good" and that all people are redeemed in Christ, including our atheist brothers and sisters. Beautiful words.

I should note that Francis has been, to my mind, exemplary from the first moment he was elected. When he walked out on that balcony and asked everyone to pray for and bless him, rather than the reverse, I knew we were in for something special.

I can only hope that a fresh outpouring and a new springtime has come for Catholics worldwide with our Pope Francis, after the difficult period we have been through these past years. So far, the signs are very encouraging. May God bless the pope in his work and use him as an instrument of His Will.

Hans Kung wrote a good article on NCR yesterday about Francis:



I should probably also say though that the Catholic Church has taught for 50 years now since Vatican II , doctrinally, that non-Christians and atheists can receive salvation ie










The important thing is hearing this said so beautifully, clearly and explicitly before the world by the pope - not wrapped up in theological garb - so as to fully seep down to the level of popular lay consciousness, where I think there has been a disconnect and deficit for many years (and I hold the teachers of the flock responsible).

I did not know that about him, or the church so thank you. I agree with your last paragraph. I wonder how this will affect the churches image, other sects, and other religions.

 

[Ouroboros]

All who do good are redeemed through Christ, says the Pope.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

good stance, good points, and good deceleration in my opinion. I think this is a good sign for the church and I hope the Pope continues with this as an agenda. I think the world needs more of this.

Very good. If the church wants to really open up for a better and more sincere dialogue with nonbelievers or other-believers, this is what has to be done. Be more inclusive and accepting instead of seclusive and rejecting. There's too much cultism in many religions. "Only we got the Truth(tm)!"

I think I might like this pope.

 

[LuisDantas]

So do I, Ouroboros

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm so glad some guy in a funny hat approves.

 

[Falvlun]

Wow. This blows my socks off. This is really a radical change, and certainly one for the better!

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm sorry I don't get this. This seems as patronising and disrespectful to the views of others as saying to an atheist 'but god still loves you.'

No atheist worth the definition can be redeemed in something whose existence is categorically and literally not accepted.

The new one may be an improvement on the last one, but the fundamental script must remain the same.

 

[Vouthon]

I'm sorry I don't get this. This seems as patronising and disrespectful to the views of others as saying to an atheist 'but god still loves you.'

No atheist worth the definition can be redeemed in something whose existence is categorically and literally not accepted.

The new one may be an improvement on the last one, but the fundamental script must remain the same.

May I ask how can a religious believer please an atheist then? If he says atheists are damned, he is a backward, medieval literalist. If he says they're not damned but redeemed, he is according to you patronising and disrespectful. So how can the said religious believer "win"? If he doesn't mention the salvation of atheists at all then I'm quite sure he'll be accused of being elitist and not caring of others outside his own lot. So how can he "win"?

I hear, "he can't" :angel2: Is that fair? I think, no. An atheist can surely understand the goodwill with which a religious person can have the strength to say that atheists will be redeemed by simply being good people, even when they don't believe in said religion. How can the religious person be faulted for his religious understanding?

It is the heart, thought and intention that counts (or should) rather than the beliefs and concepts they are expressed through. And the intention is not to see atheists as rebellious heathens "outside the fold" but as brothers and sisters we can work with together in a great enterprise and recognize truth in each other rather than merely within one's own small little "crowd". Its about having a universal vision beyond religious frontiers and beliefs. Its about respecting the good in humanity for simply being the good in humanity, no matter what name it goes under, whether atheist, Christian Muslim or Jew.

 

[Quagmire]

I'm sorry I don't get this. This seems as patronising and disrespectful to the views of others as saying to an atheist 'but god still loves you.'

It's a step in the right direction away from "God hates you". :yes:

 

[Iti oj]

It's a step in the right direction away from "God hates you". :yes:

haha exactly. and magogs remarks only hold true if the atheists right, what if the Christian is right then the remarks have validity and sense.

 

[Revoltingest]

All who do good are redeemed through Christ, says the Pope.

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

good stance, good points, and good deceleration in my opinion. I think this is a good sign for the church and I hope the Pope continues with this as an agenda. I think the world needs more of this.

Hah! I win Pascal's wager.

Hmmm.....what if God isn't Catholic?

 

[LuisDantas]

Then we will have to choose whether to bet on either his non-existence or his fairness, I suppose.

We've dealt with worse. Well, I know that I have, anyway.

 

[thau]

Hans Kung wrote a good article on NCR yesterday about Francis:

It is astonishing how, from the first minute of his election, Pope Francis chose a new style: unlike his predecessor, no miter with gold and jewels, no ermine-trimmed cape, no made-to-measure red shoes and headwear, no magnificent throne.

Astonishing, too, that the new pope deliberately abstains from solemn gestures and high-flown rhetoric and speaks in the language of the people.

And finally it is astonishing how the new pope emphasizes his humanity: He asked for the prayers of the people before he gave them his blessing; settled his own hotel bill like anybody else; showed his friendliness to the cardinals in the coach, in their shared residence, at the official goodbye; washed the feet of young prisoners, including those of a young Muslim woman. A pope who demonstrates that he is a man with his feet on the ground.

I liked your post a lot and I do love this pope. I always maintained the Catholic faith preached salvation was open to all of mankind, not just the one who calls himself Christian. This gets lost so easily on those who resent the what comes off as “uppityness” of some voices of the faithful, the clergy or various churches or even voices on the internet.

My one comment of some discontent is from Hans Kung. Oh, we all agree that Pope Francis’ humble and simple message of charity as the key is whole heartedly welcome and true. But must Hans Kung do so by drawing a negative image of his predecessor? What of it if Benedict wore the garments of a pontiff, does this make him an elitist?.... does it define his papacy or message in even the most miniscule of ways? For me, I have never marveled at a pope as I did with the soft, humble, brilliant teachings of Benedict. Yes, humble. Astounding beauty and truth. Let not the red $200 loafers purchased from a Mexican peasant cobbler cause you too much disdain, Hans. He would have been wise and fair not to have brought up Benedict at all is my contention.

God created different men with different talents for different roles and different times. Pope Benedict’s reign and skillful theological teachings put in very simple thoughts and words, was as welcome and important as any other. IMO.

 

[Pegg]

i wonder if the new pope will weed out the corruption within the vatican...if he's serious about doing good then im sure he will do good where it needs doing.

 

[Secret Chief]

It's a step in the right direction away from "God hates you". :yes:

Yes it is, to one of I implicitly disregard your belief as erroneous. Only a few more centuries to go perhaps!

 

[Secret Chief]

haha exactly. and magogs remarks only hold true if the atheists right, what if the Christian is right then the remarks have validity and sense.

It's nothing to do with being right or wrong, it's about accepting another's worldview as legitimate for that person.

 

[Secret Chief]

Vouthon, you do neither as one is not meant to be denying or correcting the belief of another in this manner. If a person is an atheist they do not believe in any gods, going to hell, being redeemed, or any other related stuff. To talk in such terms is irrelevant at best and rude at worst.

If the topic is mutually agreed to discuss that is an entirely different scenario, but that is not the case here.

Imagine a believer in reincarnation saying all bad people are coming back as worms, even non-believers. Non-believers would respond by pointing out they are not coming back as worms because they do not believe in reincarnation...

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm reminded of the JW and creationist I know. They are both certain they are right, which is fine, but the endless dismissal of alternative views with the evangelising is most annoying. Maybe I should invite them round at the same time and wait to see who implodes first...