All laws abolished, by Jesus, or otherwise

[Desert Snake]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

 

[Kemosloby]

The only thing that changed is how the law is presented to us. A more flexible enforcement.

Hebrews 7:12 "For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also."

Matt 5:18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Romans 7:6For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Sunstone]

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

That's interesting. How were they modified, for the most part?

 

[Scuba Pete]

This hearkens back to debt theology. Many (most?) Christians believe Jesus paid a debt he did not owe. IOW, the law was a contract (testament) and we owed it our lives. There was no hope of us paying off our debt, so Jesus paid it for us.

In this regard, the law is like a mortgage. As long as we owe on it, we are subject to it's regulations. It's going to accrue interest, we have to pay by a certain date every month and so on. So what happens when you pay off your mortgage? You're freakin' free! Woohoo! You're no longer under the mortgage's regulations. You didn't abolish the mortgage: you paid it off. Likewise, Jesus didn't abolish the law: he paid it off (completed it). We're no longer under the rules and regulations of the Old Testament (Law) but under the the New Testament (Love).

Unfortunately, many, many Christians and their denominations are intent on turning the New Testament into a set of laws like the OT and some even include the rules and regulations from the OT as well. It's horrible and goes against all that Jesus died for. We are free and no longer under any law, except to love each other. My favorite verse in all of the scriptures speaks to this in a special way.

Galatians 5: The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's interesting. How were they modified, for the most part?

In the context of the redemptive action of Jesus;
they can apply, or still have redemptive value, however, they are modified in the sense that they are changed by the 'sacrifice', or partially redeemed.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Dunno, seems a tad vague.

Loving someone is never 'vague'. You have to know them well enough to discern their needs and creative enough to figure out how to meet them. It's only 'vague' if you've never tried it before.

Is this the correct message of the church?

"Of"... probably not. They seem to have their own message which I can't find in scripture. "For" would be the better term. They've over-complicated and disemboweled the power of Christianity. Paul thought they should emasculate themselves. Who am I to disagree with Paul?

If this is the case, then why do churches tell us

Now you're asking the right questions. WHY? indeed!

 

[DragonHawk1959]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

 

[DragonHawk1959]

As the Bible says that the law will always be with us what Jesus did was to change who pays the penalty for people breaking the law.
We are still expected to obey the law(s).

 

[Desert Snake]

Now you're asking the right questions. WHY? indeed!

We agree on the nature of the baptism, ceremony, at least. //ceremonial symbolic with perhaps some sin redemption, but not 'necessary' for salvation.

 

[Scuba Pete]

We agree on the nature of the baptism, ceremony, at least. //ceremonial symbolic with perhaps some sin redemption, but not 'necessary' for salvation.

It appears we do. As for salvation, complete this quote from Jesus:

"They'll know you're my disciples by..."

Therein lies true salvation. Knowing the scriptures, saying grace at meals and even baptism weren't used in this quote. Why?

 

[Desert Snake]

It appears we do. As for salvation, complete this quote from Jesus:

"They'll know you're my disciples by..."

Therein lies true salvation. Knowing the scriptures, saying grace at meals and even baptism weren't used in this quote. Why?

Yes, I'm not saying that the laws are 'salvific' in themselves. Of course not. However, the laws were not completely abolished, because of Jesus's actions.
That verse is in the context of other verses/adherence.

The 'salvation' via the sacrifice, is conditional, either way.

 

[Scuba Pete]

However, the laws were not completely abolished

They were fulfilled, not abolished. Just like a mortgage isn't abolished, it's also fulfilled. Once they are paid off/fulfilled, they are no longer relevant to us.

How many dietary laws do you follow? Why or why not?

How many of those laws are covered by the Law of Love?

If they are not, then they are probably man made anyway.

Laws are needed when you don't understand why they are needed. Once you live a life of love, laws fall far, far short. You won't have to worry about hurting your brother because you are too busy feeding him. You won't have to worry about cheating a merchant, because you're too busy promoting them and finding ways to serve them. Love supersedes the law in so many ways.

Laws are for servants.
Love is for heirs.

Stop thinking like a servant and start living like an heir to the Kingdom. There is no law against Love. Read all of Galatians to understand this, but for now I leave you with this:

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. NIV

 

[George-ananda]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

My thought is that we have no record of Jesus addressing that question directly, so we have to use our intelligence and judgment on how to act under the umbrella of Jesus' clear teachings of brotherly love for all. Jesus never specified all the details of every situation.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Hmm - how to say it..??...I mean - its so obvious - it shouldnt even need pointing out - but, lets just look at what Christ is renowned for saying - renowned for doing, and what is recorded as actually happened....Now as I always say - there are TWO sets of disciple gospels and accounts for all this - and so for the sake of inclusion I will just point out things that both contain and agree on first....

You have heard it said - that Christ Himself said - DAMN those PHARISEES - and this is agreed by all...So - PHARISEES are specifically the HEBREW PRIESTHOOD - those who teach about the old ways and abide by them to the letter as THAT god demands....Look - DAMN THEM Christ said - pretty scathing yes..??..

He actually says "damn them for they dont know truth and would not give you it freely if they did"...He also says about them that they are PURPOSEFULLY misleading the people -"TAKEN the keys of truth and HID them from you"

Similarly - He tells people blatantly to QUIT THE TEMPLE - like ENTIRELY quit it - its for MAN He said - stop doing all those useless prayers, rituals ,sacrifices etc etc - stop begging and leading to this "god" - use just a SINGLE PRAYER as He then REPLACED ALL THAT TEMPLE MALARKY, with just THIS single prayer and said use it and it alone...Our Father Who art in Heaven....We all know it - He gave it directly to REPLACE all that bogus temple nonesense - didnt He..??.. When you seek the Father He said - avoid the temple and priest - go ALONE into a room and shut the door - yes He said this..The One we seek is NOT found in the temple then, or form the words of an other MAN !!

Indeed - He emphasised this with again, very strong language - you must come to HATE YOUR PARENTS He said - yes..??...

Some may be confused perhaps - but it is again obvious - hate their WAYS and their TRADITIONS He means - because look, DAMN those pharisee liars who led THEM astray and now BOTH religion AND parent are leading US all astray - so He says DAMN the reliogn come away form it ENTIRELY, so much so that you MUST come to HATE, despise your parents tradition !!!

Already we see clearly - HIS teaching is NOTHING to do with their TRADITION - and all the way through He is taking people away from the religion by the things He says, frees them out from under its domination and has them turn and shun it completely..No wonder the rabbis opposed Him so - which of course leads to the real world events - they the PRIESTHOOD - simply MURDERED HIM - lets not forget - and this tells us clearly (should do) that they are in fact ENEMIES and He was obviously a rather serious threat to them directly, their position, status and authority... People seem to forget what happened - but look it was the PRIESTS OF YHVH who act AGAINST Him - isnt it..??..

They acted to SILENCE Him - as simply said -- Our Father that Christ alone teaches us of, is not that Hebrew "god" at all - He takes people AWAY from that religion and turns them from the temple completely..He teaches of a new deity entirely - Our Father - but for the truth of that we would need to put the bible down and rely on the ORIGINAL gospels alone...It is obvious though to any without a religous bias -he came to REPLACE their old ways entirely - that god is NOT Our Father - He said so repeatedly many ways - said so emphatically and to their faces - explains it all fully in the original gospels written by the disciples own hands - and for all that they MURDERED HIM !!!

For sure - He came to REPLACE the demigod Yhvh - to give a truth that will finally set us free He said....Look Folks - its a TRUTH that does this - and this means then up until that truth is given, we have had only LIES, error and deceipt - and all that came before was FROM YHVH....Christ NOW then is giving a NEW TRUTH that sets us free from THAT lies error and deceipt form Yhvh !!!

That one is NOT Our Father - I could even point out the fact here also remind that actually Yhvh itself remained silent while all this happened - had ALREADY relinquished authority here TO Christ and simply is never to be seen or heard from again by ANY mortal - not since 400 years BEFORE Christ that god went silent and left Christ alone to remedy all this..For those with ears to hear.....

 

[Thief]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

He was questioned....have you come to abolish the law?

Nay...He replied....
I have come to fulfill the Law

best quote....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

 

[QuestioningMind]

/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.


@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

After reading through the comments on this subject I can only conclude that this creator God is a HORRIBLE communicator. This is supposed to be the most important message that mankind will ever receive, yet God chose to use the 'telephone' method for delivering it. This is a method that guarantees that a couple of thousand years later no one will be able to agree on exactly what that message is. Did Jesus nullify or modify the old laws? If the latter, HOW were the laws modified? Seems like an EXTREMELY important question that you'd think a creator God would make certain was answered unequivocally, yet the bible provides ample arguments for either side.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

QuestioningMind; The CREATOR "god" - Our Father - speaks DIRECTLY - spirit to spirit - mind to mind - and there is no chance of misinterpretation - this is Gnosis

The "god" of the BIBLE though - yer for sure - lousy communicator - speaks in riddles - lies - contradicts itself - NEVER a straight answer....And that is because it IS deceiving us, and manipulating us all the way through...Christ though - speaks directly - always available - answers clearly and fully...I remind you all - that god Yhvh in the bible - SILENT for 400 years even BEFORE my mate walked among us - it knew the game was about to end - so swift exit stage left, as they say - red faced and embarassed Im afraid, left Christ to sort out its mess and confusion..

The real problem is that gods AGENTS - its Angels and PRIESTS - wont allow - can NOT allow - that personal communication that Christ alone taught - they can not allow us to attain that direct communion that Christ alone taught - for when we do, immediately THEY become OBSOLETE - no longer needed at all, and are seen to be bogus and useless - this is why just as Christ warned us, the priesthood had "taken the keys to wisdom and HIDDEN them from you" - they cannot allow you truth of Christ for it utterly destroys their power and status above you - hence the lies deceipt and manipulation from religion ALWAYS

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

Thanks for opening this discussion syncretic....sorry our timezones are out of sinc.

Jesus summed up the whole "law and the prophets" in just two commands. (Matthew 22:34-40)

The Torah was a "to do" and "not to list" of things that were mandatory under the law of Moses. Everything the law stated, they were under obligation to perform. No one had a choice, because just being born "Jewish" meant that you were bound by that Law. It left no room for independent thinking or choice in any matter.

When Christ came, he did not alter the Mosaic Law but exposed the Pharisaical interpretation of it.

Here is what I believe about Jesus' discussion in Matthew ch. 5....

“You Heard That It Was Said”:......

When Jesus previously quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures, he said: “It is written.” (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10) But six times in the Sermon on the Mount, he introduced what sounded like statements from the Hebrew Scriptures with the words: “It was said.” (Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, 43) Why? Because he was referring to the Scriptures as interpreted in the light of Pharisaic traditions that contradicted God’s commandments. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Matthew 15:3) This is made apparent in Jesus’ sixth and last reference in this series: “You heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’” But no Mosaic law said, “Hate your enemy.” The scribes and Pharisees said it. That was their interpretation of the Law to love your neighbor—your Jewish neighbor, no others.

Consider now the first of this series of six statements. Jesus declared: “You heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice.” (Matthew 5:21, 22) Anger in the heart can lead to abusive speech and from there to condemnatory judgments, and it may ultimately lead to the act of murder itself. Prolonged anger nourished in the heart can be deadly: “Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer.”—1 John 3:15.

Jesus next said: “You heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27, 28) You are not going to commit adultery? Then do not even start down that road by entertaining thoughts about it. Guard your heart, where such things have their source. (Proverbs 4:23; Matthew 15:18, 19) James 1:14,15 warns: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” People sometimes say: ‘Don’t start what you can’t finish.’ But in this case we should say: ‘Don’t start what you can’t stop.’ Some who have been faithful even when threatened with death before a firing squad have later fallen for the insidious lure of sexual immorality.

We come now to Jesus’ third statement. He said: “Moreover it was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman [that is, one divorced on grounds other than sexual immorality] commits adultery.” (Matthew 5:31, 32) Some Jews dealt treacherously with their wives and divorced them on the flimsiest of grounds. (Malachi 2:13-16; Matthew 19:3-9) Oral traditions allowed a man to divorce his wife “even if she spoiled a dish for him” or “if he found another fairer than she.”—Mishnah.

In a similar vein, Jesus continued: “Again you heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not swear without performing’ . . . However, I say to you: Do not swear at all.” By this time the Jews were abusing oath-taking and were swearing many oaths about trivial things without performing. But Jesus said: “Do not swear at all . . . Just let your word Yes mean Yes, your No, No.” His rule was simple: Be truthful at all times, not having to guarantee your word by an oath. Reserve oaths for vital matters.—Matthew 5:33-37; compare 23:16-22.

Jesus next said: “You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.” (Matthew 5:38-42) Jesus is not here referring to a blow intended to do injury but to an insulting slap with the back of the hand. Do not degrade yourself by swapping insults. Refuse to return evil for evil. Rather, return good and thereby “keep conquering the evil with the good.”—Romans 12:17-21.

In the sixth and final example, Jesus clearly showed how the Mosaic Law was weakened by rabbinic tradition: “You heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you.” (Matthew 5:43, 44) The written Mosaic Law put no limits on love: “You must love your fellow as yourself.” (Leviticus 19:18) It was the Pharisees who balked at this commandment, and to escape it they limited the term “neighbor” to those who kept the traditions. So it was that when Jesus later reminded a certain lawyer of the command to ‘love your neighbor as yourself,’ the man quibbled: “Who really is my neighbor?” Jesus answered with the illustration of the good Samaritan—make yourself a neighbor to the one that needs you.—Luke 10:25-37.

So when Jesus referred to parts of the Law and added, “However, I say to you,” he was not setting aside the Mosaic Law and substituting something else in its place. No, but he was deepening and widening its force by showing the spirit behind it. A higher law of brotherhood judges continued ill will as murder. A higher law of purity condemns continued lustful thinking as adultery. A higher law of marriage rejects frivolous divorcing as a course leading to adulterous remarriages. A higher law of truth shows repetitious oaths to be unnecessary. A higher law of mildness sets aside retaliation. A higher law of love calls for a godly love that knows no bounds.

What a profound impact such unheard-of admonitions must have had as they fell upon the ears of those hearing them for the first time! How utterly worthless they rendered the hypocritical self-righteousness that came from slaving for rabbinic traditions! " (Excerpt 1990 WT Study article)

When gentiles were added to the Christian congregations, they were not bound by the Mosaic law and modifications applied to them. Unlike Jewish proselytes, they did not need to dress or worship as Jews. The only "necessary things" were outlined in Acts 15:28-29. Christians were no longer obligated to observe Jewish festivals or even the Sabbath. They did not have to circumcise their sons or observe dietary laws with the exception of the consumption of blood.

 

[Desert Snake]

Thanks for opening this discussion syncretic....sorry our timezones are out of sinc.

Sure,

Jesus summed up the whole "law and the prophets" in just two commands. (Matthew 22:34-40)

There is a difference between a ''summary'', and a 'in the context of'; I'm reading it not as a summary, personally.

The Torah was a "to do" and "not to list" of things that were mandatory under the law of Moses. Everything the law stated, they were under obligation to perform. No one had a choice, because just being born "Jewish" meant that you were bound by that Law. It left no room for independent thinking or choice in any matter.

That is what the Torah is, to you? Why would you even read it?

When Christ came, he did not alter the Mosaic Law but exposed the Pharisaical interpretation of it.

Generally agree, however, do you think that Jesus would have agreed with the Saduccees?

Here is what I believe about Jesus' discussion in Matthew ch. 5....

“You Heard That It Was Said”:......

When Jesus previously quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures, he said: “It is written.” (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10) But six times in the Sermon on the Mount, he introduced what sounded like statements from the Hebrew Scriptures with the words: “It was said.” (Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, 43) Why? Because he was referring to the Scriptures as interpreted in the light of Pharisaic traditions that contradicted God’s commandments. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Matthew 15:3) This is made apparent in Jesus’ sixth and last reference in this series: “You heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’” But no Mosaic law said, “Hate your enemy.” The scribes and Pharisees said it. That was their interpretation of the Law to love your neighbor—your Jewish neighbor, no others.

I never mentioned the Pharisees or false interpretation of Torah.

In the sixth and final example, Jesus clearly showed how the Mosaic Law was weakened by rabbinic tradition: “You heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you.” (Matthew 5:43, 44) The written Mosaic Law put no limits on love: “You must love your fellow as yourself.” (Leviticus 19:18) It was the Pharisees who balked at this commandment, and to escape it they limited the term “neighbor” to those who kept the traditions. So it was that when Jesus later reminded a certain lawyer of the command to ‘love your neighbor as yourself,’ the man quibbled: “Who really is my neighbor?” Jesus answered with the illustration of the good Samaritan—make yourself a neighbor to the one that needs you.—Luke 10:25-37.

Jesus is affirming Torah, here, not abolishing it.

So when Jesus referred to parts of the Law and added, “However, I say to you,” he was not setting aside the Mosaic Law and substituting something else in its place. No, but he was deepening and widening its force by showing the spirit behind it. A higher law of brotherhood judges continued ill will as murder. A higher law of purity condemns continued lustful thinking as adultery. A higher law of marriage rejects frivolous divorcing as a course leading to adulterous remarriages. A higher law of truth shows repetitious oaths to be unnecessary. A higher law of mildness sets aside retaliation. A higher law of love calls for a godly love that knows no bounds.

What a profound impact such unheard-of admonitions must have had as they fell upon the ears of those hearing them for the first time! How utterly worthless they rendered the hypocritical self-righteousness that came from slaving for rabbinic traditions! " (Excerpt 1990 WT Study article)

Great.

When gentiles were added to the Christian congregations, they were not bound by the Mosaic law and modifications applied to them. Unlike Jewish proselytes, they did not need to dress or worship as Jews. The only "necessary things" were outlined in Acts 15:28-29. Christians were no longer obligated to observe Jewish festivals or even the Sabbath. They did not have to circumcise their sons or observe dietary laws with the exception of the consumption of blood.

The Sabbath is obviously redemptive// Sunday, the Christian Sabbath. That being said it may not be 'necessary'. Adherence is going to vary there, and always has.

 

[Sully]

The Levitical Laws were part of the first covenant with the Children of Israel. It was essentially a mirror to show man how sinful we are. Jeremiah 31:31-34 foretold promise of a new covenant, different from, and much improved, from the covenant made at Mount Sinai. The second covenant was Jesus Christ which is more like a window into the love of God.

When Christ was crucified it was during Passover and the Priests were sacrificing thousands of doves and lambs as atonement for failing of the Israelites to uphold the Mosaic/Levitical Laws. The blood of these sacrifices flowed into the Brook of Kidron. After Christ was scourged and was moving toward Calvary his blood (the lamb of God...the perfect sacrifice) flowed into the Brook of Kidron. That was the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new.

The early Church struggled with the idea of the Mosaic/Levitical Laws. There was a subset within the early Church that believed that one had to be Jewish and uphold the Mosaic/Levitical Laws to be a Christian. Peter addressed this with a great deal of eloquence...why would you place a heavy yoke upon the believer that neither we nor our fathers were ever able to bear.