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All laws abolished, by Jesus, or otherwise

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
There is a sufficient answer within Reformed Theology known as the Threefold Division of the Law: Moral, Civil, and Ceremonial. The civil and ceremonial laws pertained to the nation of Israel exclusively while the Moral Law was summarized in the Ten Commandments given to Israel at Sinai. This Moral Law is that natural law (from creation) written in the heart of every person. Although marred by the fall, everyone having been created in God's image (of whose image this Law is a reflection) possesses in their conscience an innate knowledge of moral obedience or disobedience. "in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Rom.2:15 The Civil and Ceremonial Laws given to Israel were abrogated and taken away when Christ accomplished His earthly ministry at His first advent when He created the Church, bringing in the Gentiles, creating "one new man". "The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard to the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation." 1689 LBCF Ch.19 para.5 As the Threefold Division of the Law demonstrates a distinction of the laws so the Threefold Use of the Law explains different applications of the Law of God: To show or reveal our sin. To restrain our sin. To guide believers to live a life pleasing to God. Not as a way to be saved but because we are saved we desire to reflect God's holy character and will.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
/this thread is only intended to be discussed in a 'Jesus' adherence, or Jesus validity, context.
otherwise, ''same faith'', here, is meant broadly.



@Deeje

Were the Torah laws modified, or nullified?
My argument, is that they were mostly modified,

The moral laws are still in effect---the sacrificial laws were abolished by Jesus---the dietary laws were nullified.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
There is a sufficient answer within Reformed Theology known as the Threefold Division of the Law: Moral, Civil, and Ceremonial. The civil and ceremonial laws pertained to the nation of Israel exclusively while the Moral Law was summarized in the Ten Commandments given to Israel at Sinai. This Moral Law is that natural law (from creation) written in the heart of every person. Although marred by the fall, everyone having been created in God's image (of whose image this Law is a reflection) possesses in their conscience an innate knowledge of moral obedience or disobedience. "in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Rom.2:15 The Civil and Ceremonial Laws given to Israel were abrogated and taken away when Christ accomplished His earthly ministry at His first advent when He created the Church, bringing in the Gentiles, creating "one new man". "The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard to the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation." 1689 LBCF Ch.19 para.5 As the Threefold Division of the Law demonstrates a distinction of the laws so the Threefold Use of the Law explains different applications of the Law of God: To show or reveal our sin. To restrain our sin. To guide believers to live a life pleasing to God. Not as a way to be saved but because we are saved we desire to reflect God's holy character and will.
not buying that....

I read Genesis as Man created on day Six
no names, no garden, no law.....
Go forth be fruitful and multiply......dominate all things

Day Seven.....no more will be created

Chapter Two is a story of manipulation
a correction was made

Man had learned to use that will of domination .....on each other
the spiritual life intended was not going to gel
the garden event was applied to redirect
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Thief. It is somewhat difficult to follow your line of thinking but when you assert: "I read Genesis as man created on day six, no names, no garden, no law..." I must say that a reread is absolutely mandatory. Garden of Eden Gen.2:8. The name Adam Gen.2:19. The name Eve Gen.3:20.

Now for Law.

Job 31:33 "Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, by hiding my iniquities in my bosom,"
If Sin is the transgression of the law. 1John 3:4
And
If Adam sinned. Romans 5:12-21
Then there was law given to Adam in the Garden.

When you get the Garden wrong you will get justification wrong. Romans 5 The essential doctrine of Christianity.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief. It is somewhat difficult to follow your line of thinking but when you assert: "I read Genesis as man created on day six, no names, no garden, no law..." I must say that a reread is absolutely mandatory. Garden of Eden Gen.2:8. The name Adam Gen.2:19. The name Eve Gen.3:20.

Now for Law.

Job 31:33 "Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, by hiding my iniquities in my bosom,"
If Sin is the transgression of the law. 1John 3:4
And
If Adam sinned. Romans 5:12-21
Then there was law given to Adam in the Garden.

When you get the Garden wrong you will get justification wrong. Romans 5 The essential doctrine of Christianity.
stay to Genesis until you get it right

Chapter Two is not a retelling of Chapter One

Day Six....Man as a species
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I didn't say or imply ch.2 repeated ch.1.
You're asserting God created a nameless group of living individuals (species) and not the first man and woman as the progenitors of the human race as testified in Scripture?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I didn't say or imply ch.2 repeated ch.1.
You're asserting God created a nameless group of living individuals (species) and not the first man and woman as the progenitors of the human race as testified in Scripture?
correct.

Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Gen.2:7: "Then the Lord God made man (the man - definite article in Septuagint) of dust from the ground, and breathed into his (not their) nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." (not beings)

1Cor.15:45 "So also it is written 'The first man, Adam, (single individual) became a living soul'. (not souls) The last man (Christ alone) became a life-giving spirit" (not spirits)

Your understanding of the Biblical teachings on the creative order regarding man, mankind, the first man: Adam, the last man Christ and Adam's position in the doctrine of salvation is wanting. There is no ambiguity in Scripture or church history regarding this subject.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
my copy reads.....and the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground

that would be man as a species

Now granted.....the next verse leads....
and the Lord planted a garden......
and there he put the man he had formed

New Testament uses the word ....chosen.....when it speaks of Adam

and the name Adam is not used until verse 19 of Genesis 2

I do understand why people want to read Chapter Two as a retelling of Chapter One

but if you insist .....and you follow onward...
then Eve is a clone
not born of woman......not having a navel

and Adam was given his twin sister for a bride
 
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Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
my copy reads.....and the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground

that would be man as a species

Now granted.....the next verse leads....
and the Lord planted a garden......
and there he put the man he had formed

New Testament uses the word ....chosen.....when it speaks of Adam

and the name Adam is not used until verse 19 of Genesis 2

I do understand why people want to read Chapter Two as a retelling of Chapter One

but if you insist .....and you follow onward...
then Eve is a clone
not born of woman......not having a navel

and Adam was given his twin sister for a bride

It makes perfect sense that Moses would write that the Lord formed mankind from the dust of the ground since Scripture traces our origin back to that first man formed from the dust of the ground.

As for the rest of your response. So what?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Why would a creator deity , go through some lengthy process, of creation, when He can do it all in a few days? It isn't just Adam and Eve, it's everything, the plants, etc.
when creating substance.....the rules took form as well....

reality has a form AND function.
sure .....the universe responds to His touch....

but it doesn't really respond

and listening to your own Echo is not really a conversation
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It makes perfect sense that Moses would write that the Lord formed mankind from the dust of the ground since Scripture traces our origin back to that first man formed from the dust of the ground.

As for the rest of your response. So what?
you are made of dust.

do you think God made a statue of clay and breathed on it?

any chance?.....God told Moses .....what Moses could understand
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
you are made of dust.

do you think God made a statue of clay and breathed on it?

any chance?.....God told Moses .....what Moses could understand

Most of your posts are simply irrelevant rabbit trails. Please attempt to engage the Biblical passages (Jobs 31:33, Rom.5:12-21, Gen.2:7, 1Cor.15:45) which refute your position and offer some Biblical and/or historical, orthodox Christian support for this odd, perhaps singular, interpretation of the historical Adam.

If all mankind is united to Adam as their federal head and are by virtue of that natural union "children of wrath" because we all inherit his fallen nature. Who are these other species of the human race also formed from the dust of the ground at the same time as Adam? Were they unaffected by Adam's sin? Did they produce a separate sinless race? Where does Scripture even imply that Adam was not the first person created by God?

Like I mentioned earlier: Romans 5:12-21 is explicit regarding the federal headship of Adam because he was the first man. ("...the first man, Adam..." 1Cor.15:45) Everyone, absolutely every single person, came from the first man - Adam, except Christ alone, sharing his fallen nature. Because he disobeyed God's command - Law - he suffered the penalty bringing the curse upon mankind, "For as in Adam all die..." (1Cor.15:22) It is the last Adam (Christ) who will reverse the curse in the future. "So also in Christ all shall be made alive." (1Cor.15:22)

Adam was the first human being created.
There was Law given to him in the Garden of Eden.

Looking forward to a response to this post and an exegesis of the Biblical passages I have presented and ones you may offer.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It makes perfect sense that Moses would write that the Lord formed mankind from the dust of the ground since Scripture traces our origin back to that first man formed from the dust of the ground.

As for the rest of your response. So what?
God made Man of dust does not exclude evolution

you are made of dust
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Most of your posts are simply irrelevant rabbit trails. Please attempt to engage the Biblical passages (Jobs 31:33, Rom.5:12-21, Gen.2:7, 1Cor.15:45) which refute your position and offer some Biblical and/or historical, orthodox Christian support for this odd, perhaps singular, interpretation of the historical Adam.

If all mankind is united to Adam as their federal head and are by virtue of that natural union "children of wrath" because we all inherit his fallen nature. Who are these other species of the human race also formed from the dust of the ground at the same time as Adam? Were they unaffected by Adam's sin? Did they produce a separate sinless race? Where does Scripture even imply that Adam was not the first person created by God?

Like I mentioned earlier: Romans 5:12-21 is explicit regarding the federal headship of Adam because he was the first man. ("...the first man, Adam..." 1Cor.15:45) Everyone, absolutely every single person, came from the first man - Adam, except Christ alone, sharing his fallen nature. Because he disobeyed God's command - Law - he suffered the penalty bringing the curse upon mankind, "For as in Adam all die..." (1Cor.15:22) It is the last Adam (Christ) who will reverse the curse in the future. "So also in Christ all shall be made alive." (1Cor.15:22)

Adam was the first human being created.
There was Law given to him in the Garden of Eden.

Looking forward to a response to this post and an exegesis of the Biblical passages I have presented and ones you may offer.
we are not in the scriptual debate section

even so.....you would not be able to control my post work
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Man as a species ...Day Six
Day Seven ....all has been created.....and no more will be created

THEN Chapter Two
a story of manipulation

not creation
 
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