All-Powerful God Always Right

[TheKnight]

That says it all, right there. If there is a creator, and if my values are not already informed by "his", then "he" is not the creator.

I know this thread is primarily for Non-Theists and Atheists, but I cannot help but to ask you how on Earth is this logical?

Essentially what you're saying is that God cannot be God if He doesn't agree with you. Does that not strongly sound like arrogance on your part?

If you knew that God exists and if there were sufficient evidence that He wanted you to abide by a certain code of ethics, you would not follow that code because it didn't agree with the opinion you had already formed?

I can't imagine how any person could, knowing that they were created by a Being more powerful then they, knowing that He basically owns all that exists because He made it all, defy His standards based on the fact that they don't agree with them.

It seems as if you'd think your reasoning capacity is powerful enough to reasonably disagree.


Tell me, if you had children and they formed an opinion of morality that was different and contrary to your own, would you let them follow it? Would you allow them to say "Well Mom, since my values are not already informed by your values, I don't have to listen to you because you can't really have been the person that brought about my existence."?

I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend the logic behind that.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Whether or not I obey this god, my actions will be as god intended. If I disobey, he created me in such a way that I would disobey. Having said that, if eternal suffering is at stake my answer is the obvious one.

 

[AlsoAnima]

Even though I'm a theist, I disagree with the OP. People were given free will for a reason.

 

[Alceste]

Obviously, this would be a more likely rational explanation for god talking to you, but the question is assuming that you've gone through, and discounted this possibility.

It would be natural to question this god, if its values weren't in alignment with yours, but wouldn't you have to question the assumptions your views were based on in this situation?

OK, well assuming I was absolutely convinced it was actually God - which may only be possible after a positive consensus was reached independently by thousands of disinterested (read: non-religious) third party observers - then I would be likely to obey his commands in direct proportion to how consistent the ethics of the requested action was with my pre-existing ethics. So, for example, if it told me to spend a lot of time gazing at butterflies and always carry a pocket full of change for beggars and buskers, no problem. I do that anyway. If it told me to kill abortion doctors, homosexuals, infidels and uppity women, there would be a problem. I would not be able to comply with such a request, even if I deferred to the judgment of God on their inherent evilness. We'd have to agree to disagree. If it was something in between, like give up all my worldly possessions and wander the streets praising Her name, wearing nothing but a daisy in my hair, well, I suppose I could live with that. It might even be a good time. * shrug *. (Actually, it wouldn't even require that I re-examine my pre-existing values - ha! I'm a hair's breadth away from gypsying out anyway, and have been for years. All I need is an excuse!)

Edit: BTW, I should point out that I already question my values, assumptions and ethics pretty much constantly. Whether the spontaneous manifestation of a god in my kitchen with a to-do list would have a significant impact on them, I just couldn't tell you unless it happened.

 

[Willamena]

This doesn't logically follow at all. It may not have a need for your previous values to coincide with its plans. It may be completely irrelevant. What if the only relevance to this god was that you obey its commandments?

It follows for me. "It" is a creation, not creator. God would be the creator of everything. If I have values that it doesn't, then I exist apart from God and apart from everything that is its creation. I exist in another place entirely.

But I don't. Nothing stands between creator and creation. I am the plan. I am the commandment fufilled. I am "it".

If there is a God.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I'm confident that if there really was a god, he would give me a 'high five'.

How high?

 

[Willamena]

I know this thread is primarily for Non-Theists and Atheists, but I cannot help but to ask you how on Earth is this logical?

Essentially what you're saying is that God cannot be God if He doesn't agree with you. Does that not strongly sound like arrogance on your part?

If you knew that God exists and if there were sufficient evidence that He wanted you to abide by a certain code of ethics, you would not follow that code because it didn't agree with the opinion you had already formed?

I can't imagine how any person could, knowing that they were created by a Being more powerful then they, knowing that He basically owns all that exists because He made it all, defy His standards based on the fact that they don't agree with them.

It seems as if you'd think your reasoning capacity is powerful enough to reasonably disagree.


Tell me, if you had children and they formed an opinion of morality that was different and contrary to your own, would you let them follow it? Would you allow them to say "Well Mom, since my values are not already informed by your values, I don't have to listen to you because you can't really have been the person that brought about my existence."?

I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend the logic behind that.

If God is creator, then he created me and my values, so I am his being and they are his values. It's as simple as that.

 

[TheKnight]

If God is creator, then he created me and my values, so I am his being and they are his values. It's as simple as that.

So you are saying that God is not God unless He agrees with you.

You assume that God would create robots who would do exactly everything He wanted without straying from that at all. So, you figure if God exists, then however you are is how He wanted you to be.

Of course, you don't even seem to consider the possibility that maybe God has a projected outcome of how you should be and desires that both you and He be a part of that final outcome. After all, if He were going to create robots that would do exactly as He wanted all the time like perfect little extensions of His will then He wouldn't have created in the first place. In fact, the ONLY way that He could have created us is if we have the power to go against what He desires. After all, if He already had all that He desired, there would be no need to go and create something that would promulgate more of the same thing that He already has. It would make sense to create something that would add something He did not have to the gamut of what He has.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Presupposing that "What does God need with a starship?" arguments have all been thrown out: Exactly where do any of you get off base presuming that your framework of understanding is superior to a/the creator of the universe?


Even if a/the creator were not omnipotent/omniscient, then they at the very least have perspective (sense of time, history, scale of events, knowledge of purpose/intent, etc) that far exceed/transcend our own. Exactly where do you get off telling this being that they are wrong? Sounds like monumental hubris to me if anyone seriously thought that they could tell a/the creator being they were wrong.

Its akin to telling a person on top of a sky-scraper that there is no grass outside the city limits because you can't see any grass from the street level.


I am with you atotalstranger; any belief systems/ideological schema/world-views to which I hold now would have to be completely re-examined in the context of knowing that a/the creator being existed and would have to be able to conform to the intentions/ideas of this being.

MTF

 

[Willamena]

So you are saying that God is not God unless He agrees with you.

No; I am saying that God is not God unless I am part and parcel of creation, and not separate from it/God.

 

[Falvlun]

An omnipotent being would be able to make "right" whatever it is that he felt was "right". In fact, "right" would not exist unless that omnipotent being willed it to exist, and to exist in such a way that pleases him. (Note that I think this Being would be genderless, but "it" is just so awkward...)

That said, if this omnipotent being convinced me without a shadow of doubt that he existed, and that he was indeed omnipotent, then I would also be convinced that this omnipotent Being was always "right". There is no possible way for him to ever be wrong.

By extension, if he said something that didn't quite jive with how I thought the world works, then I would have to bow to his superior knowledge (and the ability to make it the way he says it is.)

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Why is being wrong impossible for an omnipotent being? Is not this being capable of anything? And why would judgments of any kind render a being not omnipotent?

Furthermore, if omnipotence means one is superior to reality in totality, then morality cannot apply in the first place and as such God is NEVER either moral or not moral.

MTF

 

[Falvlun]

Why is being wrong impossible for an omnipotent being? Is not this being capable of anything? And why would judgments of any kind render a being not omnipotent?

Why would an omnipotent being ever settle for being wrong, when with a flick of his magic wand, he can be right?

Besides, who or what can judge an omnipotent being? From what authority is this judgement being made? Would not the authority come from the omnipotent being himself? Isn't it a little absurd to believe that the omnipotent being would judge himself to be wrong?

Furthermore, if omnipotence means one is superior to reality in totality, then morality cannot apply in the first place and as such God is NEVER either moral or not moral.

MTF

Interesting thought. I'm not sure I follow it though. Could you expand upon it?

 

[TheKnight]

No; I am saying that God is not God unless I am part and parcel of creation, and not separate from it/God.

Right....so let's go over this.

1. You know how God would act because you just understand how divine minds think.
2. Because you know the potential behavior of a divine mind, you also know that if He created you, He would make you in such a way that you would already agree with Him.
3. Because you don't agree with Him, He must not because God because God would make you in such a way that you would agree with Him.
4. Since He is not God, neither He does not deserve your service, whether He created you or not.

Outstanding logic.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Why would an omnipotent being ever settle for being wrong, when with a flick of his magic wand, he can be right?

Besides, who or what can judge an omnipotent being? From what authority is this judgement being made? Would not the authority come from the omnipotent being himself? Isn't it a little absurd to believe that the omnipotent being would judge himself to be wrong?

Interesting thought. I'm not sure I follow it though. Could you expand upon it?

Why indeed? I don't know. Perhaps the omnipotent being chooses to limit "himself." Surely "free will" would constitute a "self placed" limitation for an omnipotent being?

Anyone can judge anything else. The standard of judgment is what matters. Authority to judge? The desirability of the outcome is the authority. Sure an omnipotent being could simply change the state of the universe such that the majority finds something desirable, but that presupposes no free will and consequently the universe achieves a sort of meaningless "puppet show" quality.

Again don't know. Perhaps an omnipotent being finds being wrong amusing?


If a being transcends reality, then it is beyond all that is real. Morality is part of what is real. As such any being which transcends reality must transcend morality. If omnipotence and Perfection are synonymous, then any quality attribution fails at the outset. If this being can do ANYTHING, then that includes existing and not existing simultaneously. Immunity to contradiction is required. Suddenly this being is so remote, so distinct from from existence and from what is understandable that anything we try to say about such a being becomes nonsensical.

MTF

 

[ManTimeForgot]

If God is creator, then he created me and my values, so I am his being and they are his values. It's as simple as that.

But this logic applies to every other being in existence, including those that have beliefs which are contradictory to your own. How do you reconcile this?

MTF

 

[BenFX]

If this being can do ANYTHING, then that includes existing and not existing simultaneously. Immunity to contradiction is required. Suddenly this being is so remote, so distinct from from existence and from what is understandable that anything we try to say about such a being becomes nonsensical.

That really is the best description of God if he is believable at all I've ever heard.
In all honesty I would have to weigh in what God said to me as me being a witness to God as a human being would leave me questioning why he is bothering to show up now to ask anything?
God, in his all knowing omnipotence chooses to ignore so much wrong? What is he too busy doing?
Watching women undress? So, no I would not do what this supposed God would want of me.

 

[BenFX]

OK real quick how do i respond and give credit to what someone else said?

 

[cardero]

My morals would obviously be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The morals I formed based on my exceedingly limited viewpoint, would be meaningless to god, and therefore, incorrect, insofar as god, the universe, and god's plans were concerned.

Being a creation of god, and part of the universe, whatever god's plans/commandments were for me, would be correct, even if I disagreed with them or didn't understand them from my limited perspective.

Your existence would definately come into question. You would probably spend most of your physical experience hoping to be a real life boy.

 

[Willamena]

Right....so let's go over this.

1. You know how God would act because you just understand how divine minds think.
2. Because you know the potential behavior of a divine mind, you also know that if He created you, He would make you in such a way that you would already agree with Him.
3. Because you don't agree with Him, He must not because God because God would make you in such a way that you would agree with Him.
4. Since He is not God, neither He does not deserve your service, whether He created you or not.

Outstanding logic.

That is nothing I said.