All religion begins with this notion:

[osgart]

Discordianism doesn't...

Fair enough! That proves there are always exceptions.

 

[osgart]

Just what is "meaningfully constructed" denote? That it was purposefully constructed by an intelligence?


It isn't the "formation," of a solid object, a process, but its former state; a non solid. Recall what you said, "Coherency cannot arise from incoherency" Take a pool of water from which a crystal grows. Tell us how it's physical state as a liquid fits the definition of coherency.


Yup, which is why you were wrong to claim, "Coherency cannot arise from incoherency . . . ."


Where oh where did you get the idea that coherency is an agency? "Coherency" is a noun that expresses a state of being.

coherency
1.
n the state of cohering or sticking together
2.
n logical and orderly and consistent relation of parts​

So what? Does this make you mistaken pronouncements right? Of course not.

.

The trip up is how i use the word coherency, my mistake. Meaningful coherency might be the better word usage here.

Meaningful coherency is things constructed with intentionality. The letter 'A' is designated to communicate as the arm and hand is designated to grab and utilize things in the environment.

 

[Skwim]

The type of coherency i speak of may be caused by agency and that would mean some form of intelligence is built into nature.

But not all agencies are intelligent. Take nucleation for example. This agency of crystal formation occurs where the molecules in a liquid start to gather into tiny clusters, arranging in a way that will define the crystal structure of the solid. There are two types of nucleation

Heterogeneous nucleation, which occurs when ice begins to form around a nucleation site, such as a physical disturbance, an impurity (such as salt) in the liquid or an irregularity in a container. Since biological samples are never pure water, they always experience heterogeneous nucleation.

Homogenous nucleation, which occurs when ice forms without any predefined nucleation site. Pure water will freeze at approximately -39°C in the absence of nucleation sites. In practice, though, homogenous nucleation is not often seen because of the rarity of completely pure water.
source

.​

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But not all agencies are intelligent. Take nucleation for example. This agency of crystal formation occurs where the molecules in a liquid start to gather into tiny clusters, arranging in a way that will define the crystal structure of the solid. There are two types of nucleation

Heterogeneous nucleation, which occurs when ice begins to form around a nucleation site, such as a physical disturbance, an impurity (such as salt) in the liquid or an irregularity in a container. Since biological samples are never pure water, they always experience heterogeneous nucleation.

Homogenous nucleation, which occurs when ice forms without any predefined nucleation site. Pure water will freeze at approximately -39°C in the absence of nucleation sites. In practice, though, homogenous nucleation is not often seen because of the rarity of completely pure water.
source

.​

Love this! And it describes how those heating packs filled with liquid and a little metal disc work. Sodium acetate trihydrate freezes at 58 Celsius, 136.4 F, so when you introduce an impurity (bend the disc) it rapidly freezes, and goes from it's current temperature (your room temp) to its "freezing point" which is so much hotter. Nifty.

 

[Nakosis]

It does not have to be supernatural to be a form of agency.

No but then it is measurable. As long as we can measure and test it, I suspect we'd eventually be able to figure it out. Duplicate the process if so inclined.

If "God" be nothing more than a being with the ability to create life from inanimate matter then we may find ourselves as gods at some point.

 

[osgart]

There would have to be a vital force along with inanimate matter if God were real.

Organizing and arranging matter in the right way to create life ourselves might be tapping into something extra.

 

[Milton Platt]

The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency and that demands human agency.

So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.

Meaningful Coherency cannot arise from incoherency so consciousness must be fundamental.

What is meaningful coherency but something meaningful that comes together to perform specific functions.

I, a human life, am the equivalent of the written letter 'A', expressing intentionality in my construction, and purposes specific to my cause of survival.

Sense does not come from nonsense.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence.

You are obviously unable to construct logical syllogisms. Try again, and support your claims.

 

[osgart]

You are obviously unable to construct logical syllogisms. Try again, and support your claims.

Something that has meaningful coherency is intended and purposed to function for a reason.

The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency to exist and that demands human agency.

So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.

I, a human life form, am analogous to the writing of the letter 'A'. The human form expresses intentionality in its construction, and purposes specific to its cause.

Meaningful Sense does not come from nonsense.

The human body expresses meaningful sensibility in its form and function. This meaningful coherency cannot come from unintellgibility and unguided processes.

Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence, nor can it come from nonsense, nor can it come from unguided process.




I dont understand why this makes no sense to you! So i edited it a bit.

 

[Milton Platt]

Something that has meaningful coherency is intended and purposed to function for a reason.
Meaning is given by an individual human. It has nothing to do with whether coherency exists.
The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency to exist and that demands human agency.
A written letter "A" needs only to be written by someone or something.An incoherent person could still produce a letter. A Chimpanzee can form the letter "A".
So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.
This does not follow. I reject this assertion for lack of justification. Also, what does "organized life" mean? as opposed to unorganized life?
I, a human life form, am analogous to the writing of the letter 'A'. The human form expresses intentionality in its construction, and purposes specific to its cause.
I reject this assertion as invalid. As to the second sentence, you fail to support your assertion of intentionality of construction. And expressing intentionality of construction if it existed does not necessarily imply intelligent direction.
Meaningful Sense does not come from nonsense.
Define your terms...differentiate "meaningful sense" from other sense. What nonsense are we talking about here?
The human body expresses meaningful sensibility in its form and function. This meaningful coherency cannot come from unintellgibility and unguided processes.
You have done nothing to establish that such a thing as "meaningful coherency" is involved in life in general let alone human life.
Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.
Does not follow from above assertions
If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence, nor can it come from nonsense, nor can it come from unguided process.
You have yet to demonstrate that consciousness is fundamental, therefore I reject this premise.



I dont understand why this makes no sense to you! So i edited it a bit.

 

[osgart]

Just testing!

A pencil is evidently created!
The human hand has the appearance of being a device that is created.

It is something you see or you do not see.

Its an observance.

 

[osgart]

A pencil has meaningful coherency as i defined it.

A pencil is to writing as a hand is to grabbing.

 

[Audie]

The concept of God is not directly in question. An eternal source could be vastly different than God while having perhaps some of those qualities.

So math could be "god" in this case.

 

[Audie]

Sense does not emanate from nonsense is another way of saying it. So if sense exists it must have always existed.

Similarly precision cannot emerge from imprecision.

 

[osgart]

So math could be "god" in this case.

Math could be a tool of nature of a force produced by conscious agency.

 

[Audie]

Math could be a tool of nature of a force produced by conscious agency.

A lot of things maybe could be.

 

[osgart]

A lot of things maybe could be.

Some people rule out, and some people rule in what maybe could be. And then they get into camps to indoctrinate everybody and play me smart and you fool games. And then they project their standards of epistemology on to the world when in fact they do not know.

Then it goes round and round. Ad hominems abound.

I see people beating the tar out of christianity non stop. And its the deadest horse to beat on because its farcical to begin with. And then some people are convicted of christianity and do mental gymnastics to reinforce it.



And then ... i try to understand the religious argument at its most basic convictions. And maybe a cold impersonal intelligence does exist and it turns out creatures. I dont know! Its busy doing its thing, im sure it has a lot to do.

Either way life is a miracle to me, and then it thrives and natural selection hasnt done us in yet.

And my sleep apnea is making me miserable too.

 

[Audie]

Some people rule out, and some people rule in what maybe could be. And then they get into camps to indoctrinate everybody and play me smart and you fool games. And then they project their standards of epistemology on to the world when in fact they do not know.

Then it goes round and round. Ad hominems abound.

I see people beating the tar out of christianity non stop. And its the deadest horse to beat on because its farcical to begin with. And then some people are convicted of christianity and do mental gymnastics to reinforce it.



And then ... i try to understand the religious argument at its most basic convictions. And maybe a cold impersonal intelligence does exist and it turns out creatures. I dont know! Its busy doing its thing, im sure it has a lot to do.

Either way life is a miracle to me, and then it thrives and natural selection hasnt done us in yet.

And my sleep apnea is making me miserable too.

Aww, sorry about your sleep problem.
Why are babies born expert and then people
forget how to do it?

The camp reference, was that bible camp?

 

[osgart]

Aww, sorry about your sleep problem.
Why are babies born expert and then people
forget how to do it?

The camp reference, was that bible camp?

Bible indoctrination is a difficult thing to grow up with.

 

[Audie]

Bible indoctrination is a difficult thing to grow up with.

I have seen that, yes. I was fortunate to grow up free of it.

 

[osgart]

I have seen that, yes. I was fortunate to grow up free of it.

Even dismissing it entirely ,the reality of it must be reckoned with if you are to get along with the people caught up in it. There really isnt any middle ground.