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All Scientists Should Be Militant Atheists

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think that? If an unfalsifiable claim is made, the burden must lie on the one making that claim.

Yes, but "God does not exist" is also an unfalsifiable claim.

And if someone makes a claim like that, it's acceptable for their opponent to take a position of neutrality for the sake of that argument.

Example: Bob believes in life after death, Bill doesn't.

Bill creates a thread called, "Consciousness is an exclusive function of the brain" with an OP claiming that all consciousness originates in the brain and ceases completely at the moment of death, hence no afterlife.

Now even though Bob has already made it clear in other threads that he believes in an afterlife, if all he's asking in this thread is, "How do we know consciousness originates in the brain and ceases at death", he's taking a neutral position for the sake of that thread/argument, which he has a right to do. That being the case, it would be inappropriate for Bill to turn around and demand that Bob show that consciousness exists outside of the brain, since that isn't the position he's taking in the thread.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Yes, but "God does not exist" is also an unfalsifiable claim.

And if someone makes a claim like that, it's acceptable for their opponent to take a position of neutrality for the sake of that argument.

Example: Bob believes in life after death, Bill doesn't.

Bill creates a thread called, "Consciousness is an exclusive function of the brain" with an OP claiming that all consciousness originates in the brain and ceases completely at the moment of death, hence no afterlife.

Now even though Bob has already made it clear in other threads that he believes in an afterlife, if all he's asking in this thread is, "How do we know consciousness originates in the brain and ceases at death", he's taking a neutral position for the sake of that thread/argument, which he has a right to do. That being the case, it would be inappropriate for Bill to turn around and demand that Bob show that consciousness exists outside of the brain, since that isn't the position he's taking in the thread.
I acknowledged that "God does not exist" is also an unfalsifiable claim. That is why I never made that claim. And, it is why there is no need to make the claim at all. The claim that God exists had to come first, historically at least. A claim of existence that does not yet exist cannot be refuted. And, since the initial "God exists" is an unfalsifiable claim, the burden lies with the claimant, as it is logically flawed to expect a counter claim to an initial unfalsifiable claim.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I acknowledged that "God does not exist" is also an unfalsifiable claim. That is why I never made that claim. And, it is why there is no need to make the claim at all. The claim that God exists had to come first, historically at least. A claim of existence that does not yet exist cannot be refuted. And, since the initial "God exists" is an unfalsifiable claim, the burden lies with the claimant, as it is logically flawed to expect a counter claim to an initial unfalsifiable claim.
Wrong. You're leaving out inference from evidence, logic, and other things that can make up the belief in a Deity, deities, or have a theistic viewpoint. You are essentially treating the position of theism , from the viewpoint of atheism; this is affecting your arguments.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Wrong. You're leaving out inference from evidence, logic, and other things that can make up the belief in a Deity, deities, or have a theistic viewpoint. You are essentially treating the position of theism , from the viewpoint of atheism; this is affecting your arguments.
Evidence must be verifiable, right?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Wrong. You're leaving out inference from evidence, logic, and other things that can make up the belief in a Deity, deities, or have a theistic viewpoint. You are essentially treating the position of theism , from the viewpoint of atheism; this is affecting your arguments.
There are reasons to believe, but that doesn't mean belief is substantiated as being true.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Truly? In my time being and working with scientists, I think the core value shared is a love of learning and endless curiosity more than those things. Probably neither here nor there.

In the broad sense, being "religious" simply means one has a strong passion for something, but in the sense I really mean here, to be religious means one specifically has a strong drive to know and understand the world around us, or to find meaning in things. That's what all religions do - they provide a map for understanding and relating to the world, from which comes various value systems, practices and stories. You keep asking life's big questions and wanting answers to those. Any and all scientists (and really, any and all academics, regardless of whether or not they are scientists) are fundamentally religious in this way. They've got that strong drive to know and understand, to find meaning in things. Those who pursue the sciences particularly enjoy that method of seeking meaningfulness, though by no means do they need to limit themselves to that. Those who are inclined to see deep meaning tend to do so from multiple sources, because to do otherwise is... well... it's unnecessarily limiting, and why would you do that?!

I think the definition of "religious" you're using is a common one, but I'd say it's not what one might expect the default to be on RF :)

As far as understanding the world goes, I think that the *common* religious approach is antithetical to science. Religion claims to have all the answers to those questions, and science is more open about admitting when it does NOT have answers. Religion doesn't demand evidence, science does. So the two might be looking for the same answers, but that's where the similarities end.

I suspect that your personal take on religion is quite far from the norm. You sound to me more like a philosopher and a scientist than you do a religious person.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Let's start getting into details because we both have fair points.

I'm not asserting all subjective beliefs are harmful or negative. But some beliefs have to have credence and reflect objective reality. For example, Kim Davis and Christianity's assertion that homosexuality is a sin. This is destructive in nature and harmful to the homosexual community. It creates discrimination and segregation. Other beliefs like swine being unkosher is questionable but harmless to society. I could care less what people eat as long as its not other people. Some vegans would argue here but then I digress. We have to draw a line against specific types of beliefs that are harmful to society and cannot be proven. It doesn't matter if those beliefs are religious in nature either. I find that reasonable, do you?

No, I don't. I don't regard beliefs as either inherently good or bad; such a concept seems, itself, to be largely derived from Christian doctrine (heck, about 70% of the US's values are rooted specifically in puritan morality, which I've observed being a large behavioral influence even in staunch atheists; consider H.P. Lovecraft). Beliefs are what they are, but they can't be regarded as having inherent qualities of "good" or "bad", since they don't exist in a vacuum.

Kim Davis' belief is harmful because it exists within a context that both enables and encourages her to act that belief out in a way that's harmful to individuals and our cultures. The same, however, could easily be said of beliefs that our culture would regard as virtuous; consider the well-known declaration that "all men are created equal". When taken out of context, it enables the erasure of things like from-birth disabilities, inherent physical differences, etc., and by extension encourages this idea that "everyone has the capability to do everything, and thus anyone who asserts that they can't do a thing is just being lazy". In the context of the original document, this isn't the case; for one, "men" refers specifically to white males over 21 who owned property, and for another, the equality is only in reference to the idea that everyone that "men" encompasses has equal and inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." However, cherry-picking seems to be a valued tradition in the US, at this point, such that we now have the painfully inaccurate, and in many contexts quite harmful, notion that "America is a free country".

Or, closer to the topic, even the assertion that religious ideas are not to be regarded as sacrosanct and thus free to be mocked, could potentially enable cultural discrimination and segregation because many US cultures are so deeply religious. The assertion is something I fully believe, even as a religious person. But also as a religious person, I can't ignore its possible long-term negative implications or consequences.

Scientific experimentation is about reducing uncontrollable variables, such that the experiment is performed in a figurative (sometimes literal) vacuum. While certainly a great thing, I wonder if this has created a mindset in certain people within the scientific community, that things should only be looked at independent of everything around them, even outside the laboratory setting. That couldn't be a more inappropriate way of looking at the real world outside the lab; EVERYTHING exists within the context of everything else: the Butterfly Effect.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Evidence must be verifiable, right?

Personally verifiable, that might be a preference. Verifiable, is what is reached when evidence is put into a certain equation or parameter, of other verified 'things'.So, if you mean, verifiable to someone else? No, absolutely not. We construct our beliefs /theoretically/, based on our own parameters of what we consider likely, etc. Some is verified by our standards, some isn't. I may have verified something to myself, but cannot prove it to someone else, and likewise.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure if you are joking or being serious.
full


from Givant, S. & Halmos, P. (2009). Introduction to Boolean Algebras. Springer.

I'm a computer engineer graduate.
Then naturally you are familiar with logic gates, Boolean algebras, and their relationship with classical symbolic/mathematical logic.

1 + 1 = 10 to a computer if I'm understanding what you're trying to suggest
I'm not. I'm suggesting that Boolean algebras define addition as in the scan above. These are essential for the construction of logic gates.

EDIT: It is not essential, of course, that Boolean algebras define addition as in that table. But it is necessary for the normal rules of arithmetic to fail:
full
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Evidence must be verifiable, right?
In a murder trial X says he saw Y shoot Z. That is evidence, but no one can verify it. Evidence does not mean verifiable proof. In the same manner I base my beliefs on evidence knowing it is not proof.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do they assume A (God exists) or B (God doesn't exist)?
If you let A be the proposition "God exists", then "God doesn't exist" would be ~A (although a more precise rendering would be "it is not the case that god exists", but because nobody talks like that we'd translate ~A as "god doesn't exist").
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
full


from Givant, S. & Halmos, P. (2009). Introduction to Boolean Algebras. Springer.


Then naturally you are familiar with logic gates, Boolean algebras, and their relationship with classical symbolic/mathematical logic.


I'm not. I'm suggesting that Boolean algebras define addition as in the scan above. These are essential for the construction of logic gates.

EDIT: It is not essential, of course, that Boolean algebras define addition as in that table. But it is necessary for the normal rules of arithmetic to fail:
full

Edited - misread the table.
You're right as I didnt realise the semantics that you used. You are referring to what I know of as logical XNOR.

Also, you're discussing from theoretical perspective. Computers to me are much more tangible where I view it in terms of transistors, voltage, blocks, components. Hence, the engineering side. And even then I've specialized in embedded sw applications for over two decades now.

We are digressing from the op, though...
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Computers to me are much more tangible
I can imagine (actually, I don't have to imagine I've worked with engineers and have gotten somewhat used to a sort of mutual (mild) irritation as in projects we've worked on I am concerned with theoretical justifications and the nature of abstract models, and naturally they want to just build/program the thing, see if it works, and if not fix it). The closest I get to the physical make up of computers is computer models.

We are digressing from the op, though...
Good point. I have an unfortunate habit of doing that.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the definition of "religious" you're using is a common one, but I'd say it's not what one might expect the default to be on RF :)

Of course not. The default understanding of religion and religiosity in Western culture is extremely ethnocentric and not a good basis for understanding the phenomena of religion in global or comparative terms. The English speaking world (aka, Western culture) pretty much things that all religion has characteristics similar to Abrahamic religions, and in particular, Christianity (or specific denominations thereof), even though this is not the case.


As far as understanding the world goes, I think that the *common* religious approach is antithetical to science. Religion claims to have all the answers to those questions, and science is more open about admitting when it does NOT have answers. Religion doesn't demand evidence, science does. So the two might be looking for the same answers, but that's where the similarities end.

I'd agree that the common misunderstanding of the "religious" approach appears "antithetical" to the sciences. I also recognize that it is a common misunderstanding that applies extremely poorly in global or comparative terms, or even much outside of particular segments of Christianity that are big fans of mythological literalism and being faith-based. In more broadly comparative terms, religion really isn't any more "antithetical" to the sciences than the arts are as a whole. They're different approaches to understanding, and it is only rigidity in worldviews (i.e., there is only one right map of the territory) that causes incompatibility, not the approach itself.

It's interesting you feel religions don't demand evidence, and that sciences somehow do. I'm not sure I'd characterize it that way on both accounts. Sciences don't "demand" evidence as much as have particular standards for what types of evidence are acceptable for its methods. The arts, of which religions can be said to be a form of, have less restrictive standards for evidence and reasoning. Artfulness like poetic allegory is allowed to enhance meaningfulness of the stories and such, rather than being limited to boring, dry, and stale descriptions that are terrible at evoking emotion and inducing a sense of deep meaning or gnosis. But I'm probably getting sidetracked here.


I suspect that your personal take on religion is quite far from the norm. You sound to me more like a philosopher and a scientist than you do a religious person.

If by "the norm" you mean I've broken free from the telescopic understanding most Westerners have of religion and substituting that with a more global and comparative understanding, then yes, though I'm hardly in the place that a proper scholar of religion would be on expertise in that. That you think I sound more like a philosopher and scientist than a religious person is perhaps a testimony to how you regard religion, yes? All of those things are me. I have the most formal eduction in the sciences, but I'm all of those things. Eh... just call it a Druid thing, I guess. :D
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Personally verifiable, that might be a preference. Verifiable, is what is reached when evidence is put into a certain equation or parameter, of other verified 'things'.So, if you mean, verifiable to someone else? No, absolutely not. We construct our beliefs /theoretically/, based on our own parameters of what we consider likely, etc. Some is verified by our standards, some isn't. I may have verified something to myself, but cannot prove it to someone else, and likewise.
Can you give me an example of the kind of evidence that is not verifiable, but still has value in debate?
 
Great, so you can prove that G-d does not exist?
I can not. Which is why I do not claim it to be true.
Required to support does not mean 'prove'. Merely because I cannot ''prove' that deity exists, neither takes the burden of proof off of the declarative position that deity does not exist, nor does it prove that deity does not exist.
True. However the argument isn't against the claim that god does not exist. The broad sense of atheism does not claim that. Strong atheism claims that. How do you deal with the position of broad atheism?
 
Wrong. You're leaving out inference from evidence, logic, and other things that can make up the belief in a Deity, deities, or have a theistic viewpoint. You are essentially treating the position of theism , from the viewpoint of atheism; this is affecting your arguments.
You mean through empiricism? One cannot look at something through atheism except in the light of a belief that they are wrong from the beginning. While I have done this in the past during a debate such as this none of my points rest on the axiom of atheism. They do rest on the axiom of empiricism.
 
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