Allah talks about caste?

[Vrindavana Das]

How do you determine these qualities however, are they set in stone genetically? spiritually? can they be earned and learned?

The caste system is clearly based on qualities and not birth. Someone who is born of a high caste, if indulges in lowly activities, should be considered a low caste. Similarly, if a low class born, acts in ways befitting high class, he should be considered high caste.

What does being able to do a job have to do with your status as a human being. Should we start classing people based on what they can do? Does a doctor have more self worth than a CEO?

Next time, when you have a flat Tyre, try taking your car to a dentist.

 

[Vinayaka]

Since when is caste/varna (class, a variety of occupations, whatever you want to call our differences) a problem. It's not caste or class that's the problem.

The problem is discrimination based on it, just as discrimination based on race, gender, religion, wealth, height, etc is the problem. The original intentions pointed to in scripture don't involve discrimination.

 

[no-body]

Next time, when you have a flat Tyre, try taking your car to a dentist.

Can a mechanic learn to become a dentist? Can a dentist learn to become a mechanic? Or are there roles set for life?

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm guessing of the 6 billion people on the planet, we're missing out on about a billion potential dentists or so, not because of some predetermined status, but by wealth and wealth alone. Last time I looked dentistry tuition fees were right up there.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is no Caste System in Islam. Even though members of society will hold different positions on a material level this will not effect judgement of Allah (swt) or in an Islamic Court.

I believe the Caste System is only found in Hinduism. It also reject racism.

So why then, when I was in Dubai, and from articles about the place, there are 3 distinct levels of society: 1) Muslims (the very rich) 2) Westerners working there (Upper middle class) 3) temporary workers (living in total squalor)

It seems a bit disproportionate to me.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Since when is caste/varna (class, a variety of occupations, whatever you want to call our differences) a problem. It's not caste or class that's the problem.

The problem is discrimination based on it, just as discrimination based on race, gender, religion, wealth, height, etc is the problem. The original intentions pointed to in scripture don't involve discrimination.

The difference between all those things are that they are clearly distinguishable. Race, Gender, Height are physical and cannot be removed or changed. Wealth is something you can gain and lose. From my understanding it is not the same for a Caste. It is not physical but mentally attributed because of where a child is born, and it cannot be changed. Moreover, if you were to set two people side by side at birth you could never tell what Caste they are. Attributing a Caste that people can discriminate based on seems completely unnecessary.

Do different factions in Hinduism have different views on the Caste System? If you could enlighten me on the basics that are the same in all viewpoints. This would help me make sure I well aware.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So why then, when I was in Dubai, and from articles about the place, there are 3 distinct levels of society: 1) Muslims (the very rich) 2) Westerners working there (Upper middle class) 3) temporary workers (living in total squalor)

It seems a bit disproportionate to me.

I have lived there. I was Muslim. Many labourers are Muslim from IndoPak and work at the lowest section of society. Arabs tend to be richer in Arab countries. Although you could be very rich there if you are educated, no matter of race. You don't have to be a westerner to be higher class, they generally are upper middle class as they are educated more. There are enough IndoPak educated people in higher or equal posts as westerners.

Although it is true that Arabs hold themselves to be higher than others. Islam lends them 0% support on this. They choose to do it out of their own arrogance, they even do this regardless of their religion. If you ask a Religious Scholar to defend this point they would say that Islam does not support it.

Some Arab countries are no doubt racist, they also do many things against the teachings of Islam. They simply chose to do so because of selfishness, Islam lends them no support whatsoever. On the contrary it speaks against them.

Islam has taught that all people regardless of status, for example they should read prayers together etc..


Are Hinduism teachings similar?

 

[Vinayaka]

Do different factions in Hinduism have different views on the Caste System? If you could enlighten me on the basics that are the same in all viewpoints. This would help me make sure I well aware.

Very much so. Hinduism is several religions rolled into one. Most modern swamis speak against caste all the time. Not the caste itself, but the discrimination based on it. Personally, I do not follow caste at all. These days there are more and more intercaste marriages, etc.

 

[Vinayaka]

Are Hinduism teachings similar?

On this, perhaps. I'm not sure. On many many things these two faiths are as different as night and day. For example, Hindus believe that all souls, regardless of who they are now, will eventually attain moksha, after several lifetimes. That is a great equalizer. Islam, in contrast, says its either heaven or hell, in one lifetime. Not much equal about that.

 

[Rational_Mind]

On this, perhaps. I'm not sure. On many many things these two faiths are as different as night and day. For example, Hindus believe that all souls, regardless of who they are now, will eventually attain moksha, after several lifetimes. That is a great equalizer. Islam, in contrast, says its either heaven or hell, in one lifetime. Not much equal about that.

Hell is not eternal as many Muslims seem to think.

Is Hell Eternal?

Is Hell eternal or is it more like a hospital.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

And would you call a God who not only justifies a caste system but is responsible for it...good?

Do you know the caste system was not birth based, it was never ordained by God to be based on birth in the first place, if you have a look at the verse in Gita, Birth is not requirement of "Cast", The actual word in Sanskrit is Varna, meaning vocation, or merit based.

The modern Birth based cast system is a misinterpretation of Varna.

Ishwar does not justify nor is responsible for the modern caste system.

Traditional Varna is based on ones deeds, Karma, education and intelligence.
Its like today's Class system in the western world, where a brick layer cannot become a doctor without proper education.

 

[Desert Snake]

The caste system is the exclusion from power and self-determination based on an accident of birth. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Not really, you're making comments but you haven't done your homework.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not really, you're making comments but you haven't done your homework.

This is so true, in a lot of cases. People just believe what one source says. "Communism is Bad" said McArthy or whomever that guy was (sorry I'm from Canuckistan) , and they all believed him. I asked my cousin to tell me one thing about Communism. Guess what his answer was .... "It's bad." Unfortunately, this is a true story.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Do you know the caste system was not birth based, it was never ordained by God to be based on birth in the first place, if you have a look at the verse in Gita, Birth is not requirement of "Cast", The actual word in Sanskrit is Varna, meaning vocation, or merit based.

The modern Birth based cast system is a misinterpretation of Varna.

Ishwar does not justify nor is responsible for the modern caste system.

Traditional Varna is based on ones deeds, Karma, education and intelligence.
Its like today's Class system in the western world, where a brick layer cannot become a doctor without proper education.

What is the purpose behind assigning castes. Are there different rights for different castes or more expectations from different castes. What purpose does it serve in religion.

 

[Nakosis]

The caste system is the exclusion from power and self-determination based on an accident of birth. You don't see anything wrong with that?

But that is kind of true even without supporting a caste system. We are victims of our birth and the circumstances of our lives.

I understand this is not how the "caste system" was applied. I've been told so by people who've lived under it. People use it to discriminate against others.

However what I see is my position in life had a lot to do with things I had no control over. I'm am where I am. There are those who through no choice of their own have greater position and power. There are those who through no choice of their own have much less.

All deserve equal respect as human beings since our position in life is more a matter of circumstances then something we chose. People of wealth and power are not superior being. They are where they are because of the different circumstances of their life. In the same way those of less position in life deserve no lessor respect.

I've a lot of respect for people who clean the office and cook the fries. Their service is invaluable. We all have to play our roll. There shouldn't be any shame in doing the best you can with the cards that life has dealt you.

 

[Vinayaka]

What is the purpose behind assigning castes. Are there different rights for different castes or more expectations from different castes. What purpose does it serve in religion.

To use the God-given strengths of individuals, just as educational streaming happens by free will. If a person is really good at something, should he not be doing it? In this regard, there are many trades in India that are families that have been doing the same thing for centuries. But then reincarnation comes into play, as individuals often reincarnate into the same artisan family.

Under the western capitalism system, many skilled people are left behind just because of money. When was the last time a broke politician won anything?

 

[Rational_Mind]

To use the God-given strengths of individuals, just as educational streaming happens by free will. If a person is really good at something, should he not be doing it? In this regard, there are many trades in India that are families that have been doing the same thing for centuries. But then reincarnation comes into play, as individuals often reincarnate into the same artisan family.

Under the western capitalism system, many skilled people are left behind just because of money. When was the last time a broke politician won anything?

I cannot understand how caste system would help in picking the right man for the job. Does it base it on capabilities of a person. What if a child does not want to do something that his caste is known to be good at. Would a highly capable person be born into a caste that his capabilities don't match with, or is this considered not possible because of reincarnation.

I would have to say that in North America you can go from the streets to the wall street. There is nothing holding you back because of your race in general. Although there are certain things that give you advantages. But the possibility is open based on your effort, it is harder for poor background people but definitely more than just possible. I feel that caste could prove to mentally limit a child about his or her capabilities.

 

[Vinayaka]

You're welcome to your belief about caste and about America. Have you been to India to research caste yourself? Or are you listening to other peoples' information?

In India, many people do indeed work there way out of caste/poverty.

When I was there, I truthfully never noticed caste based discrimination at all. That's not saying it didn't exist.

It is true that it is possible, however unlikely to live the American dream and work your way up, but there is no doubt in my mind that kids born rich are far more likely to go on to graduate degrees, or own businesses given to them via inheritance.

 

[Rational_Mind]

You're welcome to your belief about caste and about America. Have you been to India to research caste yourself? Or are you listening to other peoples' information?

In India, many people do indeed work there way out of caste/poverty.

When I was there, I truthfully never noticed caste based discrimination at all. That's not saying it didn't exist.

It is true that it is possible, however unlikely to live the American dream and work your way up, but there is no doubt in my mind that kids born rich are far more likely to go on to graduate degrees, or own businesses given to them via inheritance.

I know there are many flaws in the system in America and the concept of American Dream. But I would have to say that it is generally better than other countries today. There are problems but there are also much more opportunities.

I am not saying that the caste system is a fail. Moreover, I do not doubt that you can overcome the caste holding you back. The way most people put it and explain it makes no sense. I cannot seem to see the positive aspect of it. It appears that it has a huge risk of being misused and draw no major benefit. And what purpose does it serve in religion is still not clear to me. All I am saying is that people should probably do a better job explaining the caste system.

I feel whether it is caste system or family name tribalism it is almost always used to take away the rights and opportunities of others. I am not sure of what benefit it provides.

To Sumarize:
My problem with American Capitalism is greed.
My problem with Caste System is that it can be used as an organized system for inequality while in its best for does not appear to add benefits.

I think I should probably also point out that many societies apply a caste system implicitly (like the West) and other countries apply it explicitly (like the East).

 

[Desert Snake]

You're welcome to your belief about caste and about America.

Not only that, but America has it's social problems as well.