altered states conundrum

[Kapalika]

Lately I've been giving in a lot to theistic tendencies. Even though I would identify myself, intellectually and philosophically as a nontheist... a pantheist, or even an atheist.

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

But it's also kinda confusing for me. As how can I act like theism, the supernatural, is real, for like all the times I deal with the spiritual and religious except when intellectually challenged or when I feel the belief in supernaturalism threatens other's wellbeing; by using it to replace real care (say those who use Reiki to treat illness instead of modern medicine, ect)?

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory. Maybe i'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?

Granted, I am in a pretty altered state asking this... but i thought about it a lot in my normal waking state. I used to be strongly theistic... then transtheistic before coming to where I am now. I can't intellectually believe in some of the stuff I need to act and believe as true for those moments of magick, but like.... I know it's not true deeper down. So I kinda feel, like, what's the point in lying to myself? Okay, I get the experience, but does that just make me a junkie of altered states? Is that really any different then tripping to drugs? To trip to the power of the belief and placebo?

My point is, I've struggled with this a lot, finding a balance. The "Intellectual decompression chamber" I feel ruins my power over exploring the fringes of the power of the mind to make it as limited. That might be a dangerous way, but perhaps in my kind of view of duality and nondualtiy it's another way to break the theism-atheism and naturalism-supernaturalism dualities....

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

EDIT: If I was not clear on any point... I can clarify in the morning. Did my best to explain as I can atm lol Don't tell anyone but I might be using some light drinking to assist some super intense hypnotic and meditative states right now via some good old vamachara methods. everything is so surreal. been in a constant hypnotic. / meditative state for like an hour straight now... on the edge of awake and super sensory perception and something akin to lucid dreaming

 

[wizanda]

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory.

Then expand your comprehension to a larger scope, that encompasses all perspectives...

My understanding now is we're in a holographic reality, with a CPU manifesting it...

Have become more scientific based, after years of discussion with many different ideologies; which then allows it to be integrated into most theologies, whilst also being in advance of most Atheistic thinking.

It is like trying to remain consistently logical, in a world where many stick to a narrow perspective, that is often illogical in someway.

 

[Kapalika]

Then expand your comprehension to a larger scope, that encompasses all perspectives...

My understanding now is we're in a holographic reality, with a CPU manifesting it...

Have become more scientific based, after years of discussion with many different ideologies; which then allows it to be integrated into most theologies, whilst also being in advance of most Atheistic thinking.

It is like trying to remain consistently logical, in a world where many stick to a narrow perspective, that is often illogical in someway.

I'm trying to understand your point of view. But like, not all perspectives are reconcilable. I don't quite get what you mean about holographics and a CPU... such things are digital. reality is very analog. I don't think most theologies work together. I mostly believe in Trika of Kashmir Shaivism as the most correct from what I understand. This would, by many measures invalidate a lot of views.

I think it would be illogical to be entirely universal, as opposed to recognizing that many if not most or all see some underlying aspect of the same general truths. That doesn't meant that all of those underlying aspects are valid, just that they agree on at least some points more so than other points. It doesn't mean they are truth if evidencetial reason does not align with it.

To me, in the context of true belief or position, and assumed position for the sake of magick, altered states, what have you, I want to minimize confusion. Partly, it makes me seem contradictory, unsure, unconvicted. But on another level, living something consistent 24/7 works better than trying to shift gears from opposites so often. Perhaps I could find a balance, or not. I don't know. That's why I made this topic.

Basically, I want to be honest with myself. Magick takes some degree of plaecbo and lying to oneself, but at least I don't want to do this philosophically or theologically in a way that is inconsistent.

 

[wizanda]

I don't quite get what you mean about holographics and a CPU... such things are digital. reality is very analog.

Everything is made of consciousness vibrating at different speeds, the CPU isn't a materialistic aspect; yet to the materialistic mind, it can compute it in that fashion, and the deeper mind can question the logical aspects of removing anthropomorphism.

 

[Kapalika]

Everything is made of consciousness vibrating at different speeds, the CPU isn't a materialistic aspect; yet to the materialistic mind, it can compute it in that fashion, and the deeper mind can question the logical aspects of removing anthropomorphism.

Vibrations so new age. Everything conciousness? Okay maybe in some hindu schools but im of the idea via trika that physical is very real. I don't see that as really conscious since consciousness was an evolutionary adaptation. Such an eternal being wouldn't need that.

But anyways why give faulty computer analogies? Computers are inventions, not naturalistic... CPUs can only do one thing at once and are digital... even our minds can do many things at once and are analog... a cosmic mind greater than us could surely do even more in something beyond analog.... a digital computation device only capable of doing 1 thing at once can't even compare to our minds, what could it compare to a cosmic mind?

I get that we should remove anthropomorphism but do we do so by subscribing to the things we create? No. It is beyond current imagination. I can't visualize say the distance from the moon, to 1 AU, to one LY to one parsec to the size of the local group to the univeral entirety. It's beyond out 'middle earth' perception... it's beyond our comprehension. Like.... cosmic scale and truth... is beyond the human conceptualization.

 

[Ingledsva]

Lately I've been giving in a lot to theistic tendencies. Even though I would identify myself, intellectually and philosophically as a nontheist... a pantheist, or even an atheist.

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

But it's also kinda confusing for me. As how can I act like theism, the supernatural, is real, for like all the times I deal with the spiritual and religious except when intellectually challenged or when I feel the belief in supernaturalism threatens other's wellbeing; by using it to replace real care (say those who use Reiki to treat illness instead of modern medicine, ect)?

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory. Maybe i'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?

Granted, I am in a pretty altered state asking this... but i thought about it a lot in my normal waking state. I used to be strongly theistic... then transtheistic before coming to where I am now. I can't intellectually believe in some of the stuff I need to act and believe as true for those moments of magick, but like.... I know it's not true deeper down. So I kinda feel, like, what's the point in lying to myself? Okay, I get the experience, but does that just make me a junkie of altered states? Is that really any different then tripping to drugs? To trip to the power of the belief and placebo?

My point is, I've struggled with this a lot, finding a balance. The "Intellectual decompression chamber" I feel ruins my power over exploring the fringes of the power of the mind to make it as limited. That might be a dangerous way, but perhaps in my kind of view of duality and nondualtiy it's another way to break the theism-atheism and naturalism-supernaturalism dualities....

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

EDIT: If I was not clear on any point... I can clarify in the morning. Did my best to explain as I can atm lol Don't tell anyone but I might be using some light drinking to assist some super intense hypnotic and meditative states right now via some good old vamachara methods. everything is so surreal. been in a constant hypnotic. / meditative state for like an hour straight now... on the edge of awake and super sensory perception and something akin to lucid dreaming

I have no problem with Chaos Magic, altered states, etc., without any theistic thought involved.

I'm reading a couple of Hein's older Chaos Magic books right now. I also spend time on Elhaz Ablaze.com - Chaos Heathenism.

Meditation or drugs will bring altered states. Our brains are set up for both. No religion required. What you see has meaning to YOU.

To me Chaos Magic fits into the, - What was once understood to be "magic" will eventually be understood to be science, category.

Quite frankly, when I think Magic, I think of all the theories in Quantum Physics.

And by the way, a form of Wizanda's Holographic theory would also fit within the Quantum. (without Deity)

*

 

[Aupmanyav]

For the moment, I will let you struggle with yourself.

 

[Kapalika]

I have no problem with Chaos Magic, altered states, etc., without any theistic thought involved.

I'm reading a couple of Hein's older Chaos Magic books right now. I also spend time on Elhaz Ablaze.com - Chaos Heathenism.

Meditation or drugs will bring altered states. Our brains are set up for both. No religion required. What you see has meaning to YOU.

To me Chaos Magic fits into the, - What was once understood to be "magic" will eventually be understood to be science, category.

Quite frankly, when I think Magic, I think of all the theories in Quantum Physics.

And by the way, a form of Wizanda's Holographic theory would also fit within the Quantum. (without Deity)

*

This sounds like a bunch of quantum woo-woo and misunderstanding to me.

Give a real answer, K?

For the moment, I will let you struggle with yourself.

Yes... I must struggle and come to conclusion myself... perhaps I will ask you later when I feel I have something more to say

 

[wizanda]

Vibrations so new age.

Was referring to quantum physics, everything is strings vibrating at different speeds.

Everything conciousness?

Yes, dynamic computer code within the Matrix is what we call consciousness, everything is made of this same computer code.

CPUs can only do one thing at once and are digital

Our computers can do multi-threading, Brahman can do infinite threading; which means multiple tasks at the same time, it processes this whole reality.

I get that we should remove anthropomorphism but do we do so by subscribing to the things we create?

It is the easiest metaphor I'm aware of, that then quantifies what I saw in my NDE, cross referenced with all ideologies globally.

 

[Iti oj]

Lately I've been giving in a lot to theistic tendencies. Even though I would identify myself, intellectually and philosophically as a nontheist... a pantheist, or even an atheist.

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

But it's also kinda confusing for me. As how can I act like theism, the supernatural, is real, for like all the times I deal with the spiritual and religious except when intellectually challenged or when I feel the belief in supernaturalism threatens other's wellbeing; by using it to replace real care (say those who use Reiki to treat illness instead of modern medicine, ect)?

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory. Maybe i'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?

Granted, I am in a pretty altered state asking this... but i thought about it a lot in my normal waking state. I used to be strongly theistic... then transtheistic before coming to where I am now. I can't intellectually believe in some of the stuff I need to act and believe as true for those moments of magick, but like.... I know it's not true deeper down. So I kinda feel, like, what's the point in lying to myself? Okay, I get the experience, but does that just make me a junkie of altered states? Is that really any different then tripping to drugs? To trip to the power of the belief and placebo?

My point is, I've struggled with this a lot, finding a balance. The "Intellectual decompression chamber" I feel ruins my power over exploring the fringes of the power of the mind to make it as limited. That might be a dangerous way, but perhaps in my kind of view of duality and nondualtiy it's another way to break the theism-atheism and naturalism-supernaturalism dualities....

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

EDIT: If I was not clear on any point... I can clarify in the morning. Did my best to explain as I can atm lol Don't tell anyone but I might be using some light drinking to assist some super intense hypnotic and meditative states right now via some good old vamachara methods. everything is so surreal. been in a constant hypnotic. / meditative state for like an hour straight now... on the edge of awake and super sensory perception and something akin to lucid dreaming

Discordian ..... Chaos magic ....

 

[icehorse]

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

The explanation could be as wonderful as the idea that you're simply becoming aware of a cool bit of neuro-biology / cognitive science. As a related example, scientists know how to artificially stimulate a human brain so that the test subject experiences "visitation" experiences.

The brain is amazing!

 

[YmirGF]

Lately I've been giving in a lot to theistic tendencies. Even though I would identify myself, intellectually and philosophically as a nontheist... a pantheist, or even an atheist.

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

But it's also kinda confusing for me. As how can I act like theism, the supernatural, is real, for like all the times I deal with the spiritual and religious except when intellectually challenged or when I feel the belief in supernaturalism threatens other's wellbeing; by using it to replace real care (say those who use Reiki to treat illness instead of modern medicine, ect)?

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory. Maybe i'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?

Granted, I am in a pretty altered state asking this... but i thought about it a lot in my normal waking state. I used to be strongly theistic... then transtheistic before coming to where I am now. I can't intellectually believe in some of the stuff I need to act and believe as true for those moments of magick, but like.... I know it's not true deeper down. So I kinda feel, like, what's the point in lying to myself? Okay, I get the experience, but does that just make me a junkie of altered states? Is that really any different then tripping to drugs? To trip to the power of the belief and placebo?

My point is, I've struggled with this a lot, finding a balance. The "Intellectual decompression chamber" I feel ruins my power over exploring the fringes of the power of the mind to make it as limited. That might be a dangerous way, but perhaps in my kind of view of duality and nondualtiy it's another way to break the theism-atheism and naturalism-supernaturalism dualities....

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

EDIT: If I was not clear on any point... I can clarify in the morning. Did my best to explain as I can atm lol Don't tell anyone but I might be using some light drinking to assist some super intense hypnotic and meditative states right now via some good old vamachara methods. everything is so surreal. been in a constant hypnotic. / meditative state for like an hour straight now... on the edge of awake and super sensory perception and something akin to lucid dreaming

@Mandi I LIKE your post, a lot. Let me simmer this in the background for a bit and see what tumbles out into my lap. Frankly, I don't think you have anything to worry about and this actually sounds pretty healthy to me. That's my initial read of this. I have to do some stuff now, but will be back in about 1/2 an hour or so....

 

[George-ananda]

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

I would suggest aligning your rational thinking and supernatural beliefs into one meta worldview.

For example, I am highly rational and a strong believer in the paranormal. I have rationally come to believe that there are dimensions around us not accessible to our three-dimensional senses. Paranormal evidence has convinced me that something 'more' is out there and I believe there are many individuals more psychically gifted than myself that can tell me about these things.

With a rational and supernatural view of reality aligned, you can then consider the best path to where you want to go.

As for Altered States, I rationally believe our consciousness can experience genuine things beyond our familiar three-dimensional physical universe.

 

[YmirGF]

Lately I've been giving in a lot to theistic tendencies. Even though I would identify myself, intellectually and philosophically as a nontheist... a pantheist, or even an atheist.

But I kind of find... that seeing the world in a more theistic-like view lends itself very much better to attaining altered-states. At least for me. It's like, I really really wanna believe that, and acting as if that is so, in a lot of ways of life, allows that. Without that even temporary belief I just can't do it.

But it's also kinda confusing for me.

Hehe. Yes, that could be a tiny bit confusing on a conscious level as your actions are at odds with you beliefs or lack thereof. Try thinking of it like trying on clothing in a fashion boutique. What I am saying is don't be afraid to allow yourself the latitude to try new things. Obviously, your psyche is turning in the direction for whatever reason. Go with it. Play and if you have to, pretend it is all real. The mind is a powerful thing and if you give it room to explore ideas it can entertain you will pretty amazing experiences. Look into the suspension of disbelief.

As how can I act like theism, the supernatural, is real, for like all the times I deal with the spiritual and religious except when intellectually challenged or when I feel the belief in supernaturalism threatens others well-being; by using it to replace real care (say those who use Reiki to treat illness instead of modern medicine, ect)?

It just feels kind of inconsistent and contradictory. Maybe I'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?

I wouldn't know about so-called "chaos magick" and remain skeptical of its validity. That said, there is real "magic" already within your mind in the workspace of unlimited creativity. I have to say, I let my mind play as far as it wants to go, to exhaust an idea of experience, but I never lose touch with reality. The genuine experiences you just might unlock WILL strengthen your hold or grasp of reality and being a living, breathing human animal.

Granted, I am in a pretty altered state asking this... but i thought about it a lot in my normal waking state.

That's ok, sometimes we need to weaken our defenses a tiny bit to let things ooze out onto the floor.

I used to be strongly theistic... then transtheistic before coming to where I am now. I can't intellectually believe in some of the stuff I need to act and believe as true for those moments of magick, but like.... I know it's not true deeper down. So I kinda feel, like, what's the point in lying to myself? Okay, I get the experience, but does that just make me a junkie of altered states? Is that really any different then tripping to drugs? To trip to the power of the belief and placebo?

My guess is that you are still a bit new to this as the conflict you are describing is quite natural and healthy. I've been at this game for so long now and enjoy a seemingly permanent blend of altered and normal, simultaneously. I simply shift my focus away from the inner chatter-box and whole new vistas open up, while another part of my awareness is happily ensconced in the though process.

My point is, I've struggled with this a lot, finding a balance. The "Intellectual decompression chamber" I feel ruins my power over exploring the fringes of the power of the mind to make it as limited. That might be a dangerous way, but perhaps in my kind of view of duality and nondualtiy it's another way to break the theism-atheism and naturalism-supernaturalism dualities....

Don't get too hung up on the duality thingy. Your insistence on given aspects may actually be the source of your current challenge(s) as you succeed in creating your expectations. (There's a lot in that last line, so you might want to ponder it a bit.)

Any suggestions on where I should go forward?

Trust yourself and perhaps "park" your doubts while you continue to do more research. In theory, you could end up having the details work themselves out by themselves. ...or end up a total basket case (Just kidding, LOL!) Again, my best advice is simply to give yourself the room you need and don't fret over if you're doing things right.

EDIT: If I was not clear on any point... I can clarify in the morning. Did my best to explain as I can atm lol Don't tell anyone but I might be using some light drinking to assist some super intense hypnotic and meditative states right now via some good old vamachara methods. everything is so surreal. been in a constant hypnotic. / meditative state for like an hour straight now... on the edge of awake and super sensory perception and something akin to lucid dreaming

Hehehehe. In time, you'll get used to it. Wait until it becomes the new normal and there is nothing surreal or super sensory about it any longer. That's where the fun really begins.

 

[sun rise]

One thought on altered states. An analogy might be someone on a journey who walks by a beautiful and enticing meadow. The choice then is between giving up the quest and seeking to remain forever in the meadow or of refreshing oneself for a time and then resuming the journey.

Those much wiser than I have emphasized the later - not seeking altered states as an end but not rejecting them either - using them as refreshment and encouragement to continue the journey.

 

[Ingledsva]

This sounds like a bunch of quantum woo-woo and misunderstanding to me.

Give a real answer, K?

How in the world did you get THAT from what I said?

YOU sais this; ---- "Maybe i'm more suited though to chaos magick in this regard?"

And indeed if you go over and read the articles on the site I mentioned, - Elhaz Ablaze.com, - you will find people with thought processes just like yours. From BOTH sides of the isle.

Here are a couple of quotes from an article linked off of the site.

"... Magic arises to prominence when the boundary of self is either expanding or contracting. For example, during times of innovation and discovery, or during times of repression. A profound magical renaissance is now in progress because the boundary of self is both expanding and contracting simultaneously. Science, drugs, psychology, communications networks and all the paraphernalia of late twentieth century life have expanded aspects of awareness to a degree inconceivable a century ago.

Conversely, many aspects of industrial civilization oppress us and hence encroach on the territory of self. The childish allegories of religion have been rightfully jettisoned but the whole principle of the self as a mystic entity has taken a body-blow in the process. The natural environment is being rubbished to feed the industrial behemoth and our capacity to relate to it is diminishing. As the pace of life becomes more frantic the value of introspection becomes diminished except in art where it is encouraged to become grotesque. Consumerism and the prospect of thermonuclear Armageddon (which it seems must inevitably accompany it) could diminish us all. Thus with all these pressures on self, magic has mushroomed and taken on a coloration distinct from its historical antecedents. At once there is an extraordinary necrophilia and eclecticism and at the same time a powerful feeling for anachronistic practices.

Quantum physics rubs shoulders with nature shamanism and Tantric practices are employed for parapsychological purposes involving telepathy experiments arranged by satellite link between home microprocessors whilst ancient goetic incenses smoke away on the mantelpiece in homemade braziers. ..." Arcanorium College

Physics of Information - Quantum Entanglement, Black Holes and Holographic Universe

Simulations back up theory that Universe is a hologram

*

 

[LukeS]

Imagine three circles, the inner, the middle and the outer.

The inner is the known, the middle is the unknown and the outer is fun.

 

[Kapalika]

Quantum physics rubs shoulders with nature shamanism and Tantric practices are employed for parapsychological purposes involving telepathy experiments arranged by satellite link between home microprocessors whilst ancient goetic incenses smoke away on the mantelpiece in homemade braziers.

Curiously since I'm both into Tantra and own a small collection of physics books written by normal physicists on subjects from quantum entanglement, quantum physics and a lot of other stuff too I feel I can say... no, this sentence is just plain not true. Neurons are WAAAAAAY too big for quantum phenomena to occur on is the real clencher. Also I have no idea what Tantra has to do with quantum mechanics. Nothin', really. I think nueroscience would be very applicable in the future, to learn more about some of the psychological and neurological phenomena... but not quantum mechanics. It's literally comparing sub-atomic scales to something a thousand times larger beyond the threshold of quantum weirdness.

From what I've read, for a quantum event to be large enough for us to perceive it, the odds are that it might of only happened once in the history of the universe, if it ever did at all. This would necessitate that one of the bizarre quantum events occur to every single atom in that body at the exact same time which isn't practically possible for a bunch of reasons I'm not sure I really understood, but it was explained in there. At any rate such an event wouldn't last very long, but a split moment in time. These events matter for sub-atomic scales and some cases of astrophysical phenomena (think Hawking radition or vacuum energy) but that's still sub-atomic phenomena even if on a large scale but that's really it AFAIK.