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Alternative Voting Systems

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I like the idea, but because it gives thirds a more level playing field, the major parties will fight it with all their resources. For that reason, I don't see it gaining traction here for some time, but I hope I'm wrong.
Because of the quirks of the first-past-the-post system, I think that if the United States develops a third party any time soon, it will be one that's strongly regional.

A small party that can concentrate on a few districts and ignore the rest gets a significant advantage in your system over one of a similar size that has support spread out over a wide area.

Because of this, the Texas Independence Party (if one exists... I'm not sure) will elect a member of congress before the Greens do.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
In our last provincial election, we had a referendum on whether to implement Mixed Member Proportional voting. I thought it would be a good idea, but the motion was defeated, as was a Single Transferable Vote system in British Columbia recently.

First-past-the-pole has, IMO, shown its weakness many times. It's time to replace it where possible. Single transferable vote is my current pick. Here is how I would like to see it work for House elections:

1. Abolish Congressional districts. States are the districts now, with multiple Representatives in most "districts."

2. States with more than 20 Representatives (currently NY, TX, FL, and CA) may, by a 2/3 majority of both houses of legislature, divide the state into two districts that would result in even populations (according to the latest census) and number of Representatives; there must be less than 0.5% difference in the Representatives-population ratios between the two parts. The legislature may modify this divide at any time with a 2/3 majority, provided the new divide meets the above conditions. They may abolish the division and reunite the state with a 60% majority. The division expires after each census and must be redrawn; if it is not, the two sections are reunited.

3. Use the Single Transferable Vote for all states with more than one Representative (those states still use first-past-the-pole).

I like the idea, but because it gives thirds a more level playing field, the major parties will fight it with all their resources. For that reason, I don't see it gaining traction here for some time, but I hope I'm wrong.

This is my single greatest motivation for the proportional vote in Congressional election. Take Massachusetts, a state that currently has 10 Representatives. If, theoretically, all ten elections came out 44% Democratic, 26% Republican, 17% Libertarian, and 8% Green, then under the current system, Democrats would sweep the state, and 59% of voters don't get whom they elected. However, under proportional vote, the results (slightly different under single transferable vote) would come up as 4 Democrats, 3 Republicans, 2 Libertarians, and 1 Green. That's only a 4+4+3+2 = 13% deviation from the actual voting results. Much better!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You sometimes can! Get involved in shareholder meetings.

yeah but....I meant allowing the general public...the consumer...make choices.

The scheme of things would be greatly different if a wannabe ceo, had to make promises he might have to keep.

And 'politically correct' could some day fall away to fiscally correct.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
yeah but....I meant allowing the general public...the consumer...make choices.
The scheme of things would be greatly different if a wannabe ceo, had to make promises he might have to keep.
And 'politically correct' could some day fall away to fiscally correct.

To vote require an investment of money &/or time.
If you don't want to get involved, then you don't deserve to get involved.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I'm all for people voting on political races and issues.

When it comes to running a company (i.e. CEO, Board of Directors, etc.), the only people that should have the right to vote are the stockholders of that corporation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
yeah...I know the current routine.
This is about changing it.

What if the consumer had voting rights?

They'd vote for board members who would give out free bacon, concert tickets
& toasters, the they'd lower prices until the company went out of business.
 

Smoke

Done here.
To vote require an investment of money &/or time.
If you don't want to get involved, then you don't deserve to get involved.

A poll tax is unconstitutional in the United States, and people already complain about long lines at the polls. Anyway, I'm not sure we want a system in which only activists vote.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
A poll tax is unconstitutional in the United States, and people already complain about long lines at the polls. Anyway, I'm not sure we want a system in which only activists vote.
Isn't that pretty much what we have now?

Luis, if I am not mistaken, it is a legal requirement to vote in Brazil. How well does that work?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A poll tax is unconstitutional in the United States, and people already complain about long lines at the polls. Anyway, I'm not sure we want a system in which only activists vote.

I never suggested a poll tax. I addressed voting for board members in a corporation.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see too much politics and not enough of what it takes.

America is an economically driven society.

Our founding fathers lived in a different country.....so to speak.

What they did, in setting up a functional government was all fine and good...
in their time.

If they could have seen the direction America would go...their efforts may have gone...
some other way.

Several of them understood, that a distribution of wealth was altogether important.
But at the time, the concept of free enterprise was more important....
and the only option.....freedom.
Good luck to all...everyman for himself.

They had to assume we would develop better laws and methods as the need presented itself.
And the voting system of representation was assumed to accommodate the voice of the people.

Recent news reports...economic reports...lengthy speeches by economic experts....recent documentaries of our historical economic development....
All these come together to show we ARE on the brink of serious and possibly drastic alteration of our means and methods.

It's a good thing that we have this discussion about voting.
It places on the table, that we share a common perception, that something about our system is failing.
And the voting system is one portion of the failure.

At this point in time your vote is aimed at politicians.
You are then reliant on their ability to execute the platform and policies, the incumbent did offer in his bid to take office.

All too often, we find our politicians give up their ideals, preached and delivered in the race for office....and succumb to whatever is politically correct...once in office.

Your vote becomes meaningless when this happens.

I say, we do not have the vote that counts.
As we are economically based so too, should be our voting rights.

In recent news, I see strong denouncement of ceo's that seek their bottom line before consideration of the people, and the effect of decisions made.

I see in our immediate future, a change of venue.
As one percent of the population continues to own one third of the nation's wealth....disparity will increase.
The rich will continue to get richer, and the poor will become desperate.

History has lessons learned.
Shall we ignore history? shall we let the poor...'eat cake'?
 
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I'm all for people voting on political races and issues.

When it comes to running a company (i.e. CEO, Board of Directors, etc.), the only people that should have the right to vote are the stockholders of that corporation.
TVOR, what do you think about the idea that "stakeholders" should get some sort of vote -- i.e. employees, and people who live in the community?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
TVOR, what do you think about the idea that "stakeholders" should get some sort of vote -- i.e. employees, and people who live in the community?

Well, if you are going to make corporations concerned with more than the bottom line, then stakeholders should have a vote.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
TVOR, what do you think about the idea that "stakeholders" should get some sort of vote -- i.e. employees, and people who live in the community?

Good question, Spinkles.

The stakeholders that you speak of already have input into how a company conducts its business. As a citizen, we have the right to vote for representatives that will enact laws to regulate industries. That protection is (at least in theory) our opportunity to influence the direction of the companies in our country.

Employees also have input, but in a different way. As an employee, you have the power to impact how the company conducts itself. If you know that your company is straight piping its effluent into a nearby creek, then you really need to do whatever is necessary to stop that action.

As for the manner in which you phrased it, I think you were asking if the stakeholders should be able to vote in stockholder meetings. My answer to that would be a resounding "no".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Good question, Spinkles.

The stakeholders that you speak of already have input into how a company conducts its business. As a citizen, we have the right to vote for representatives that will enact laws to regulate industries. That protection is (at least in theory) our opportunity to influence the direction of the companies in our country.

Employees also have input, but in a different way. As an employee, you have the power to impact how the company conducts itself. If you know that your company is straight piping its effluent into a nearby creek, then you really need to do whatever is necessary to stop that action.

As for the manner in which you phrased it, I think you were asking if the stakeholders should be able to vote in stockholder meetings. My answer to that would be a resounding "no".

This will change.
Perhaps you watch the evening news?

Decision made years ago...at the corporate level have brought our economy to the point where it is now.

Even the mighty Greenspan...in recent interviews...has confessed his naive te'....
having assumed the economic system was self-correcting, and that greed would not be such an influence, as it is proving to be.

Of course he waited until leaving office to make his confession.
Had he said so while in office, his complaint would have been 'politically sour'.

I say the economy belongs to the people....
It's their money and they need it now.

Of course, history clearly shows extreme difficulty as the shift of expenses takes hold. Some of that shift is already at hand, as errors in manufacturing are taken to the makers of faulty goods, as well as loss of business revenues due to environmental accidents, brought on by errors 'at the pump'.

Day by day, it becomes more and more self evident...
the 'bottom line' is not the most important target for a healthy economy.
And the old guard of ceo authority, cannot be trusted at the helm.
 
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