Am I an Islamic Apostate?

[Trey of Diamonds]

Ok, here is the situation. I grew up traveling. Spent a couple years in Algeria in the late 70s. Then on to Abu Dhabi and a visit or two to Saudi. Later in life I spent three years working very closely with Turks. I have also traveled Europe extensively and marveled at places like the Alhambra. I love history and tried to learn the cultrual history of the places and peoples I have lived.

I decided very early on that I had no problem believing that Mohammed was one of God's prophets. But at the same time I don't believe that he was the last or was any more special than the rest of the Biblical prophets. Now my Christian friends have said that makes me a Muslim. But if so, then am I an Apostate for not following the strict rules governing Islam? Can I believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God and not pray 5 times a day or observe ramadan?

I think I can but I'm curious about what you think too.

Also, do any other Christians out there believe that Mohammed was one of God's prophets? Does this somehow make one less of a Christian?

 

[Falvlun]

O Can I believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God and not pray 5 times a day or observe ramadan?

I think I can but I'm curious about what you think too.

I think you can too, but I don't think that makes you a Muslim, or even an apostate Muslim, for that matter.

I think it's on par with say, finding meditation useful. Just because you dig meditation, doesn't mean you're a Buddhist.

Also, do any other Christians out there believe that Mohammed was one of God's prophets? Does this somehow make one less of a Christian?

It is kinda interesting that you don't hear of too many Christians accepting that Muhammed was a prophet. I suppose it would shake things up if it was accepted theologically-- additions to the Bible, etc. Now that I think about it, it's interesting a Muslim-Christian hybrid hasn't formed after all these years, what with the two religions sharing so much background, and interaction between members. Melding of beliefs once was a common occurrence when two cultures collided, but then ended up living peaceably enough in proximity to one another.

 

[A-ManESL]

You may be interested to know that Prophet Muhammad himself forbade anyone to give him preference over other Prophets. (source).

I hardly think it matters whether others consider you a Muslim or not, what's relevant is what you consider yourself. Also it is an established position in fiqh that not praying 5 times a day or not observing ramadan does not take a Muslim out of the pale of Islam. (Such people are called fasiq Muslims).

 

[muslim-]

Actually all prophets in Islam are equal in terms of prophethood. So that belief of yours is really Islamic.

The Prophet has believed in that which is sent to him from his Lord as have the believers. All of them believe in Allah, His angels, His books and His Messengers. We do not differentiate between any of His messengers, and they say: "We hear and we obey. (We seek)Your forgiveness, our Lord to You is the return (of all). Allah does not burden any soul beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned." [Soorah Baqarah (2): 285-6]

Also the prophet peace be upon him said "Do not overpraise me like the people before me overpraised Esa (Jesus) the son of Mary, for I am the servant/slave of Allah, and His messenger)

To be Muslim, the "category" of works, is essential. But if you miss some prayers, or commit certain sins, or drink etc. This doesn't make you an apostate at all. But if you categorically leave out "work" as a whole (all prayers, zakat, fasting Ramadhan), then yes you cannot be Muslim. Belief necessates at least some work based on this belief if it is genuine.

Yes we are human, and may sin, not do "works" as we should, but to leave the category of "works" as a whole, altogether, this cannot be in Islam. Works is necessary for faith, even if theres shortcomings.

About the the prophet being the final one, the Quraan says he certainly is the last and final messenger. ( Of course we believe in the return of Jesus Christ, but he isn't really a "new" messenger ). Anyone who believes in the prophethood of anyone after him, cannot be considered a Muslim. This is by the consensus of the scholars.

If you believe in Islam and the Quraan, this shouldn't be problematic. As the Quraan says "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things."( 33:40)

The prophet peace be upon him said "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." ^ Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik

So if you do believe in the Quraan and prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, this shouldn't be an issue.

I don't think you should rush and consider yourself as "non Muslim" but rather, see it as an opportunity to learn more about Islam, and develop knowledge that is always the basis of any solid belief.

 

[sandandfoam]

Can I believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God and not pray 5 times a day or observe ramadan?

I think I can but I'm curious about what you think too.

I think you can too.
I don't pray 5 times a day. I admire those who do but I don't seem able to manage it.
To my mind, because I believes that there is no God but God and that Mohammed was his prophet I am a Muslim.
Others can view me as they see fit, but judgement is not theirs - it's Gods. And as I experience it God is not cruel or vindictive.
What makes Islam perfect in my eyes is the understanding of what God is.

 

[Caladan]

Ok, here is the situation. I grew up traveling. Spent a couple years in Algeria in the late 70s. Then on to Abu Dhabi and a visit or two to Saudi. Later in life I spent three years working very closely with Turks. I have also traveled Europe extensively and marveled at places like the Alhambra. I love history and tried to learn the cultrual history of the places and peoples I have lived.

I decided very early on that I had no problem believing that Mohammed was one of God's prophets. But at the same time I don't believe that he was the last or was any more special than the rest of the Biblical prophets. Now my Christian friends have said that makes me a Muslim. But if so, then am I an Apostate for not following the strict rules governing Islam? Can I believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God and not pray 5 times a day or observe ramadan?

I think that in the long run what you are seeking is different from an Islamic POV. what I believe you are looking for is a cultural niche.
in a way I have some similar experience. I travelled Turkey, Egypt and Jordan. and in fact travelled Europe for months, and also China and New Zealand. the past year I spent in London.
you may feel affinity or closeness to an inclusion that you sense when you interact with or travel in middle eastern cultures. also the Islamic doctrine at its core is simplicit which may be complimentary to that experience.
but I think that if you think about it long enough, you will realize that taking on an Islamic dogma falls short of actually understanding a culture.
so, I have to ask, why not simply interact with a culture without adopting one of its faith's tenets?

Also, do any other Christians out there believe that Mohammed was one of God's prophets? Does this somehow make one less of a Christian?

I read the New Testament and the Qur'an, but I didn't become Christian or Muslim. I think there is a major and beneficial difference between studying a religion and deciding to adhere to some of its tenets.
it is possible to look at all these figures without attributing to them any mystical attributes. also its good to apply critical tools when reading scriptures.
for me the scriptures hold a cultural role in history and in society, however their extraordinary claims should be taken as allegory or in the context they were written at. its vital to remember that the Qur'an was written during the 7th century.

 

[Caladan]

I think it's on par with say, finding meditation useful. Just because you dig meditation, doesn't mean you're a Buddhist.

There's truth in this. some aspects of other cultures, religions or philosophies simply resonate with us.

 

[Sahar]

I think you can too.
I don't pray 5 times a day. I admire those who do but I don't seem able to manage it.

Why, stephen, if you don't mind asking?

You miss all the beauty...

 

[sandandfoam]

Why, stephen, if you don't mind asking?

You miss all the beauty...

Prayer times here today are 5:41 7:39 12:09 2:12 4:38 6:31

I got up at half six this morning to do some work. So I missed the first one. I called the kids at half 7 for school and got them ready until 0850. So I missed the second one.
Noon prayers - I said a prayer at noon but just a prayer because I'm working so no Wudu. I must pick a child up at 2.10 from school so I'll miss that one. I'll pray again tonight but it won't be at half six because that's dinner time.
I pray every day, but not 5 times.

 

[Peace]

Prayer times here today are 5:417:3912:092:124:386:31

I got up at half six this morning to do some work. So I missed the first one. I called the kids at half 7 for school and got them ready until 0850. So I missed the second one.
Noon prayers - I said a prayer at noon but just a prayer because I'm working so no Wudu. I must pick a child up at 2.10 from school so I'll miss that one. I'll pray again tonight but it won't be at half six because that's dinner time.
I pray every day, but not 5 times.

Hello Stephen

I believe you haven't well grasped the time of prayer.
Well let me explain this according to your local time of prayer
5:41 This is the Fajr or dawn prayer
7:39 this is not a time for prayer it is the time of sunrise. It is there in the prayer calendar in order to be aware that we should pray the dawn prayer between 5:41 and 7:39 that's the right time for praying the dawn prayer and you can do it at any time between those times.

12:09 This is the time of Dhuhr or noon. So you either prayer it at that time or before the next prayer which is 2:12 (afternoon prayer)

The same thing for the latter, you can perform it at 2:12 or at any time before the next prayer at 4:38 (the sunset prayer)
The last prayer which is the night prayer at 6:31 could be done at any time during the night.

In case you missed the time of any of the five prayers you could make them up once you are able to. Let's suppose it's the time now of the afternoon prayer and you still haven't performed the noon prayer, you should pray the noon prayer first and then follows it with the afternoon prayer though it's the time of the latter.

Once you get used to pray on time whenever you could, you will feel that you cannot do without prayer and that it is part of your daily life and duties. Prayer is a communication with God and a believer longs for that communication and for the prayer time to come to stand in front of his Creator.

I hope I made myself clear to you brother. In case, you need any help or you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask your Muslims fellows. You know that your questions are always welcome Stephen

 

[Sahar]

Prayer times here today are 5:41 7:39 12:09 2:12 4:38 6:31

I got up at half six this morning to do some work. So I missed the first one. I called the kids at half 7 for school and got them ready until 0850. So I missed the second one.
Noon prayers - I said a prayer at noon but just a prayer because I'm working so no Wudu. I must pick a child up at 2.10 from school so I'll miss that one. I'll pray again tonight but it won't be at half six because that's dinner time.
I pray every day, but not 5 times.

I still don't understand why you miss it. You know there is a space of time to catch praying on time. For example, the adhan of Fajr prayer is at 5:41 am, the sunrise is at 7:39 am. So you have like two hours to pray al-Fajr. So you can manage to pray at that time.
Do you mean praying once the time of the Adhan comes?

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

No, you are not an apostate, lol, since you were never actually Muslim. It is best not to listen to a Christian on what makes a person Muslim, haha. If just believing Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) was a messenger of God made you Muslim, then every Baha'i person would be considered Muslim.

 

[Iti oj]

Ok, here is the situation. I grew up traveling. Spent a couple years in Algeria in the late 70s. Then on to Abu Dhabi and a visit or two to Saudi. Later in life I spent three years working very closely with Turks. I have also traveled Europe extensively and marveled at places like the Alhambra. I love history and tried to learn the cultrual history of the places and peoples I have lived.

I decided very early on that I had no problem believing that Mohammed was one of God's prophets. But at the same time I don't believe that he was the last or was any more special than the rest of the Biblical prophets. Now my Christian friends have said that makes me a Muslim. But if so, then am I an Apostate for not following the strict rules governing Islam? Can I believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God and not pray 5 times a day or observe ramadan?

I think I can but I'm curious about what you think too.

Also, do any other Christians out there believe that Mohammed was one of God's prophets? Does this somehow make one less of a Christian?

you might by a suffi muslim and yes that probably makes you an apostate.

 

[Sahar]

Hello Stephen

I believe you haven't well grasped the time of prayer.
Well let me explain this according to you your local time of prayer
5:41 This is the Fajr or dawn prayer
7:39 this is not a time for prayer it is the time of sunrise. It is there in the prayer calendar in order to be aware that we should pray the dawn prayer between 5:41 and 7:39 that's the right time for praying the dawn prayer and you can do it at any time between those times.

12:09 This is the time of Dhuhr or noon. So you either prayer it at that time or before the next prayer which is 2:12 (afternoon prayer)

The same time of the latter you can perform it at 2:12 or at any time before the next prayer at 4:38 (the sunset prayer)
The last prayer which is the night prayer at 6:31 could be done at any time during the night.

In case you missed the time of any of the five prayers you could make them once you are able to. Let's suppose it's the time of afternoon prayer and you still haven't performed the noon prayer, you should pray the noon prayer first and then follows it with the afternoon prayer.

Once you get used to pray on time whenever you can, you will feel that you cannot do without prayer and that it is part of your daily life and duties. Prayer is a communication with God and a believer longs for that communication and for the prayer time to come to stand in front of his Creator.

I hope I made myself clear. In case, you need any help or you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask your Muslims fellows. You know that your questions are always welcome Stephen

Thank you Peace for the detailed reply.

Stephen you have us all here, you can talk to us and ask about anything at anytime.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I think that in the long run what you are seeking is different from an Islamic POV. what I believe you are looking for is a cultural niche.

What makes you think I'm seeking anything other than knowledge? There is no confusion in my eyes as to what or who I am. But I am still curious about how others see me and the world around them. It is amazing how varied the perceptions of others are and we can learn from each of those perceptions.

This particular question stems from when I returned from the Middle East and ended up attending a Baptist Church with my grandmother. Lets just say that the perceptions there were very different from those found here, mostly anyway.

Anyway, I don't consider myself a Muslim but some more fundamental Christians I have run across have accused me of such simply for accepting Mohammed as a prophet of God. It seems to me that if I was some how a Muslim by proxy that I would be an Apostate as I don't fully believe in Islam. Just one of the many thoughts that whirl about in this strange and twisted head of mine.

 

[Caladan]

What makes you think I'm seeking anything other than knowledge? There is no confusion in my eyes as to what or who I am. But I am still curious about how others see me and the world around them. It is amazing how varied the perceptions of others are and we can learn from each of those perceptions.

OK, I may need more introduction then to what we discuss here

This particular question stems from when I returned from the Middle East and ended up attending a Baptist Church with my grandmother. Lets just say that the perceptions there were very different from those found here, mostly anyway.

introduction such as this

Anyway, I don't consider myself a Muslim but some more fundamental Christians I have run across have accused me of such simply for accepting Mohammed as a prophet of God. It seems to me that if I was some how a Muslim by proxy that I would be an Apostate as I don't fully believe in Islam. Just one of the many thoughts that whirl about in this strange and twisted head of mine.

I can see the logic here though, professing that Muhammad is the messenger of God is part of the Muslim Shahada. I guess you are in a unique position, and it would be interesting to talk about this more.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I can see the logic here though, professing that Muhammad is the messenger of God is part of the Muslim Shahada. I guess you are in a unique position, and it would be interesting to talk about this more.

Not as unique as you might think. There is a rather large community of Christians who have been raised in the Middle East due to oil, construction or the military. We've been called Military Brats, Construction Brats and Company Brats. Many of us have some interesting views on religion and culture.

 

[Caladan]

Not as unique as you might think. There is a rather large community of Christians who have been raised in the Middle East due to oil, construction or the military. We've been called Military Brats, Construction Brats and Company Brats. Many of us have some interesting views on religion and culture.

I actually find that fascinating. and I am sure that if we ever sit down for a cup of coffee we will have much to talk about.
I served in Arab territories, travelled the middle east, and enjoy studying the middle east and Islam in general. when its ideal, I keep it apart from political discourse. and this I think can be one of the strong points of RF. to discuss world religions for the sake of discussing world religions.
also as an interesting side note, part of my family has lived in the middle east for centuries and immigrated to Israel from North Africa a few short years after the establishment of the state of Israel.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I actually find that fascinating. and I am sure that if we ever sit down for a cup of coffee we will have much to talk about.
I served in Arab territories, travelled the middle east, and enjoy studying the middle east and Islam in general. when its ideal, I keep it apart from political discourse. and this I think can be one of the strong points of RF. to discuss world religions for the sake of discussing world religions.
also as an interesting side note, part of my family has lived in the middle east for centuries and immigrated to Israel from North Africa a few short years after the establishment of the state of Israel.

You use the word served so I take it you were in the military. My father was/is overseas construction so I was a Construction Brat. I have noticed that while people who work or serve outside of their own country can appreciate the new cultures, they don't often alter what they already believe. But when its a child growing up outside their own country, it can drastically alter their view on the world and where they fit into it.

I'm sure coffee with you would be a wonderful experience, both educational and entertaining.

 

[sandandfoam]

I hope I made myself clear to you brother. In case, you need any help or you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask your Muslims fellows. You know that your questions are always welcome Stephen

Thank you Peace. I always appreciate what you have to say.