Am I Christian or Not?

[rdoty]

First some background; I was raised in a primarily protestant culture in a rural community, first attending a Methodist church as a very young boy then Presbyterian as a youth/teen. A HS girlfriend introduced me to the Catholic Church which I identified with through my young adult life. Eventually I enrolled in an RCIA program, was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I attend mass regularly and often serve as Lector and Eucharistic minister. I have never read the entire Bible although I am familiar with many of the teachings contained therein and I try to live my life in a way that Jesus would have approved of. I acknowledge that I have sinned but I also am comforted by knowing that God is merciful, that if I believe that Jesus is the Son of God my sins will be forgiven - and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

The other day I had lunch with a close friend who I knew to be a devout and zealous Christian. Knowing this I had always avoided any discussion about religion although we had occasionally discussed generally the issue of the increasing conflict between Islam/Muslim and Christianity. Somehow our discussion devolved to my attitude toward Islam and other religions and heaven. I admitted to being tolerant of anybody who practiced another religion as long as they were good, loving and peaceful people – and of course were equally acceptable of Christians. I then said something that really set him off - that since the entire universe and all within it was created by God, and only one God, and that God is merciful, therefore God (the Father) is tolerant of those who may not have experienced or even were aware of Jesus, his Son and further that maybe, just maybe, we all ultimately worshiped the same God.

His response was strong - that the only way to be “saved” and go to Heaven is to accept unquestionably the proclamation by Jesus that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He then angrily accused me of not being a Christian, that I was a heretic and that I was going to Hell and when the world ended they only ones admitted to heaven were true believers – and I obviously wasn’t one.

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

 

[Katzpur]

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

Oh, my gosh! I'm surprised that you even have to ask. Isn't a Christian a follower or disciple of Jesus Christ? What did Jesus say concerning how people would be able to identify His disciples? Wasn't it by the love they showed -- not only towards one another but towards their enemies as well. As far as I'm concerned, you're a far better Christian than your friend.

 

[roger1440]

"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI."
https://zenit.org/articles/nonbelievers-too-can-be-saved-says-pope/

 

[columbus]

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian....?

Maybe the important question is "Is there an objective standard for Christians?"
If there is, then the answer to your question is Maybe. If there isn't, then the answer is Yes.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'd say you are more of a Christian than your friend is. He is not practicing charity. God is love.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

I am not a Christian but I think your beliefs about a merciful God are closer truth than your so-called friend!

Jesus example was to love everyone - even your "enemies" - something we could all pracice more!

All the best!

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Just found this -

It is of course evident that everything in one’s religious life depends
upon the sort of God one worships. The character of the worshiper
must necessarily be molded by the character of the object worshipped.
If it is a cruel and revengeful God, or a selfish and unjust God,
the worshiper will be cruel, and revengeful, and selfish,
and unjust, also. If it is a loving, tender, forgiving,
unselfish God, the worshiper will be loving, and tender,
and forgiving, and unselfish, as well.

Hannah Whitall Smith

 

[Deeje]

First some background; I was raised in a primarily protestant culture in a rural community, first attending a Methodist church as a very young boy then Presbyterian as a youth/teen. A HS girlfriend introduced me to the Catholic Church which I identified with through my young adult life. Eventually I enrolled in an RCIA program, was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I attend mass regularly and often serve as Lector and Eucharistic minister. I have never read the entire Bible although I am familiar with many of the teachings contained therein and I try to live my life in a way that Jesus would have approved of. I acknowledge that I have sinned but I also am comforted by knowing that God is merciful, that if I believe that Jesus is the Son of God my sins will be forgiven - and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

I guess we have to have a few definitions here.....what does it mean to "believe"?

James 2:19:
"You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

So what does "believing" entail?

The other day I had lunch with a close friend who I knew to be a devout and zealous Christian. Knowing this I had always avoided any discussion about religion although we had occasionally discussed generally the issue of the increasing conflict between Islam/Muslim and Christianity. Somehow our discussion devolved to my attitude toward Islam and other religions and heaven. I admitted to being tolerant of anybody who practiced another religion as long as they were good, loving and peaceful people – and of course were equally acceptable of Christians. I then said something that really set him off - that since the entire universe and all within it was created by God, and only one God, and that God is merciful, therefore God (the Father) is tolerant of those who may not have experienced or even were aware of Jesus, his Son and further that maybe, just maybe, we all ultimately worshiped the same God.

Following Jesus' example, we can see that Jesus while appealing to the heart, never condoned false worship. His stinging criticism of the Pharisees proves that he will not tolerate false teachings dressed up as Bible truth. This is why knowledge is so important. We not only have to know what we believe but why we believe it and be able to back up what we say with scripture.

1 Pet 3:13-15:
"Indeed, who will harm you if you become zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are happy. However, do not fear what they fear, nor be disturbed. 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."

His response was strong - that the only way to be “saved” and go to Heaven is to accept unquestionably the proclamation by Jesus that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He then angrily accused me of not being a Christian, that I was a heretic and that I was going to Hell and when the world ended they only ones admitted to heaven were true believers – and I obviously wasn’t one.

We have no right to judge anyone. We do have a right to state our beliefs and defend what we hold as truth, but not in a way that slaps a person in the face with our words. Its not only what we say, but the way that we say it. The Bible itself should be our best defense.

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

It is true that God is merciful and loving...but he does not excuse people who sin deliberately or who promote false religious ideas as Christian teachings. There is only one way to salvation and we have the words of Jesus himself to prove that.

John 14:6:
"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Only we can get to the truth by our own sincere efforts. Sometimes that means putting down all pre-conceived ideas and starting from scratch. Get to know what the Bible teaches, not just what the church teaches. You may find that they are very different when you start researching.

Burning in an eternal fiery "hell" for example is not a Bible teaching. There are many more. The church has kept people in ignorance for a very long time.

In Bible times, people of other faiths who wanted to worship Jehovah, had to align themselves with God's people and accept the laws that bound them. One could not be a worshiper of the true God whilst worshiping false deities. So suggesting that God will somehow save everyone regardless of their religious choices is not scriptural. It is we who need God's approval, not that he needs ours. He has standards that we have to live up to.

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

Only you can answer that. Be careful who you listen to because people will often only tell you what you want to hear because it excuses themselves from acknowledging the truth in their own lives.

Calling ourselves Christians doesn't make us Christ's followers unless we are actually following his teachings...ALL of them.
Not everyone calling Jesus their "Lord" will make the cut. (Matt 7:212-23)

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

First some background; I was raised in a primarily protestant culture in a rural community, first attending a Methodist church as a very young boy then Presbyterian as a youth/teen. A HS girlfriend introduced me to the Catholic Church which I identified with through my young adult life. Eventually I enrolled in an RCIA program, was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I attend mass regularly and often serve as Lector and Eucharistic minister. I have never read the entire Bible although I am familiar with many of the teachings contained therein and I try to live my life in a way that Jesus would have approved of. I acknowledge that I have sinned but I also am comforted by knowing that God is merciful, that if I believe that Jesus is the Son of God my sins will be forgiven - and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

The other day I had lunch with a close friend who I knew to be a devout and zealous Christian. Knowing this I had always avoided any discussion about religion although we had occasionally discussed generally the issue of the increasing conflict between Islam/Muslim and Christianity. Somehow our discussion devolved to my attitude toward Islam and other religions and heaven. I admitted to being tolerant of anybody who practiced another religion as long as they were good, loving and peaceful people – and of course were equally acceptable of Christians. I then said something that really set him off - that since the entire universe and all within it was created by God, and only one God, and that God is merciful, therefore God (the Father) is tolerant of those who may not have experienced or even were aware of Jesus, his Son and further that maybe, just maybe, we all ultimately worshiped the same God.

His response was strong - that the only way to be “saved” and go to Heaven is to accept unquestionably the proclamation by Jesus that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He then angrily accused me of not being a Christian, that I was a heretic and that I was going to Hell and when the world ended they only ones admitted to heaven were true believers – and I obviously wasn’t one.

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

I think the issue here is that in the Biblical doctrine of salvation no one is good, so there are no "good" people that deserve heaven, and Christians aren't good people either, and are simply undeserving recipients of God's grace to be adopted as His children. The idea that no one is good is quite fundamental to the Christian doctrine of salvation and the necessity of Jesus coming to this earth and dying on the cross for us.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

His stinging criticism of the Pharisees proves that he will not tolerate false teachings dressed up as Bible truth.

You do realize that His criticism of the Pharisees was mostly about their ill treatment of the people, especially of the needy and their "othering" of misunderstood people, and their arrogance, right? He was not some Bible thumping, hellfire and brimstone preacher who obsessed over doctrinalism. His best friends were all the outcasts, poor, sick and non-Jews that the uppity self-righteous Jews wouldn't have anything to do with.

 

[Brickjectivity]

First some background; I was raised in a primarily protestant culture in a rural community, first attending a Methodist church as a very young boy then Presbyterian as a youth/teen. A HS girlfriend introduced me to the Catholic Church which I identified with through my young adult life. Eventually I enrolled in an RCIA program, was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I attend mass regularly and often serve as Lector and Eucharistic minister. I have never read the entire Bible although I am familiar with many of the teachings contained therein and I try to live my life in a way that Jesus would have approved of. I acknowledge that I have sinned but I also am comforted by knowing that God is merciful, that if I believe that Jesus is the Son of God my sins will be forgiven - and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

The other day I had lunch with a close friend who I knew to be a devout and zealous Christian. Knowing this I had always avoided any discussion about religion although we had occasionally discussed generally the issue of the increasing conflict between Islam/Muslim and Christianity. Somehow our discussion devolved to my attitude toward Islam and other religions and heaven. I admitted to being tolerant of anybody who practiced another religion as long as they were good, loving and peaceful people – and of course were equally acceptable of Christians. I then said something that really set him off - that since the entire universe and all within it was created by God, and only one God, and that God is merciful, therefore God (the Father) is tolerant of those who may not have experienced or even were aware of Jesus, his Son and further that maybe, just maybe, we all ultimately worshiped the same God.

His response was strong - that the only way to be “saved” and go to Heaven is to accept unquestionably the proclamation by Jesus that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He then angrily accused me of not being a Christian, that I was a heretic and that I was going to Hell and when the world ended they only ones admitted to heaven were true believers – and I obviously wasn’t one.

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

Well in my opinion you are too fundamentalist, and your friend is just a more extreme version of you.

 

[Katzpur]

You do realize that His criticism of the Pharisees was mostly about their ill treatment of the people, especially of the needy and their "othering" of misunderstood people, and their arrogance, right? He was not some Bible thumping, hellfire and brimstone preacher who obsessed over doctrinalism. His best friends were all the outcasts, poor, sick and non-Jews that the uppity self-righteous Jews wouldn't have anything to do with.

Amen! Jesus Christ was far more critical of the Pharisees for their hypocrisy than He was for any errors in doctrine. I believe He has never changed in this regard.

 

[Katzpur]

Well in my opinion you are too fundamentalist, and your friend is just a more extreme version of you.

I'm curious as to why you would think that the poster was the slightest bit "fundamentalist." He didn't strike me that way at all.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm curious as to why you would think that the poster was the slightest bit "fundamentalist." He didn't strike me that way at all.

He says he hasn't read the Bible, but he also agrees with his friend and says "...I can see that strictly speaking he is correct..." Strictly speaking, no, his friend is not correct at all. His friend is a member of the evangelical fundamentalist movement which accepts nobody as Christian unless they believe its statement of faith. Fundamentalists call themselves fundamentalists, but they are really not in the dictionary definition. Are they Christian? Yes. Are they a denomination? Yes. They are a division, a non-catholic entity, not believing in catholicism. If you ask them if they are Catholic they will probably say 'No'. I think of them as the opposite of catholic. Most of them won't even know what catholic is or will think its evil, and I know because I am from that fundamentalist evangelical movement. As demonstrated in the opening post, they do not accept fellowship with anybody who disagrees with themselves on certain hot-button issues, showing the real nature of their 'Fundamentalist' movement is neither fundamentalist nor catholic. They believe that you must agree with them on certain fundamental axioms, which they dictate to you. Agreeing with them even marginally that Jesus at all is implying that only knowledge of his life, belief in his life is the only way to please God, well that makes a person marginally like them. Its like falling under their spell.

 

[Deeje]

You do realize that His criticism of the Pharisees was mostly about their ill treatment of the people, especially of the needy and their "othering" of misunderstood people, and their arrogance, right? He was not some Bible thumping, hellfire and brimstone preacher who obsessed over doctrinalism. His best friends were all the outcasts, poor, sick and non-Jews that the uppity self-righteous Jews wouldn't have anything to do with.

Well, it is true that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy but he also warned his disciples about their teachings.

Matt 16:5-12:
"Now the disciples crossed to the other side and forgot to take bread along. 6 Jesus said to them: “Keep your eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 So they began to reason among themselves, saying: “We did not take any loaves along.” 8 Knowing this, Jesus said: “Why are you discussing among yourselves that you have no loaves, you with little faith? 9 Do you not yet see the point, or do you not remember the five loaves in the case of the 5,000 and how many baskets you took up? 10 Or the seven loaves in the case of the 4,000 and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not discern that I did not speak to you about bread? But watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they grasped that he said to watch out, not for the leaven of bread, but for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

He also said, among the many things he castigated them for.....

Matt 23:15:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."

This means that their teachings made people miss out on salvation, since the word "Gehenna" means eternal punishment in death.

You underestimate how much the law meant to Jesus as the son of the one who gave it.

Matt 5:17-20:
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. 20 For I say to you that if your righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens."

These are the words he speaks to us too.....the Jesus you present seems to be a very convenient copy of the Christ spoken of in scripture, who allows a whole lot more leeway than the original one did.

Will the real Jesus please stand up. (Matt 7:21-23) When he does, we will see what standard of conduct he expects from his disciples.

 

[Katzpur]

He says he hasn't read the Bible, but he also agrees with his friend and says "...I can see that strictly speaking he is correct..." Strictly speaking, no, his friend is not correct at all. His friend is a member of the evangelical fundamentalist movement which accepts nobody as Christian unless they believe its statement of faith. Fundamentalists call themselves fundamentalists, but they are really not in the dictionary definition. Are they Christian? Yes. Are they a denomination? Yes. They are a division, a non-catholic entity, not believing in catholicism. If you ask them if they are Catholic they will probably say 'No'. I think of them as the opposite of catholic. Most of them won't even know what catholic is or will think its evil, and I know because I am from that fundamentalist evangelical movement. As demonstrated in the opening post, they do not accept fellowship with anybody who disagrees with themselves on certain hot-button issues, showing the real nature of their 'Fundamentalist' movement is neither fundamentalist nor catholic. They believe that you must agree with them on certain fundamental axioms, which they dictate to you. Agreeing with them even marginally that Jesus at all is implying that only knowledge of his life, belief in his life is the only way to please God, well that makes a person marginally like them. Its like falling under their spell.

Okay. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. To me, the OP seemed about as opposite of his fundamentalist friend as it is possible to be.

 

[Katzpur]

We have no right to judge anyone. We do have a right to state our beliefs and defend what we hold as truth, but not in a way that slaps a person in the face with our words. Its not only what we say, but the way that we say it. The Bible itself should be our best defense.

It is true that God is merciful and loving...but he does not excuse people who sin deliberately or who promote false religious ideas as Christian teachings. There is only one way to salvation and we have the words of Jesus himself to prove that.

Only we can get to the truth by our own sincere efforts. Sometimes that means putting down all pre-conceived ideas and starting from scratch. Get to know what the Bible teaches, not just what the church teaches. You may find that they are very different when you start researching.

My guess is that most devout believers in Jesus Christ do not deliberately promote false teachings about Him. Yes, it's important to know what the Bible teaches, but good and sincere people do have different interpretations of what the Bible says. I believe that first and foremost, each of us will be judged by the condition of our heart -- and that's something only God can know with any degree of accuracy. For this reason, I have always been very uncomfortable suggesting that people who believe differently from me are intentionally promoting false doctrine.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

These are the words he speaks to us too.....the Jesus you present seems to be a very convenient copy of the Christ spoken of in scripture, who allows a whole lot more leeway than the original one did.

The Jesus I know calls me to do the hardest things that a human can do - to love, have compassion and mercy, to seek to understand and reconcile, especially when it goes against everything you want to do. I'm not interested in knowing your one-dimensional harsh caricature of Christ that completely leaves out the social element of the Gospel and obsesses over personal, one on one salvation as if it's some magical, superstitious thing. That's an individualistic, distorted American idea of Jesus that could only have come about in such a callous, capitalistic "every man for himself" society. That's not the one that lives in my heart.

 

[Thana]

First some background; I was raised in a primarily protestant culture in a rural community, first attending a Methodist church as a very young boy then Presbyterian as a youth/teen. A HS girlfriend introduced me to the Catholic Church which I identified with through my young adult life. Eventually I enrolled in an RCIA program, was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I attend mass regularly and often serve as Lector and Eucharistic minister. I have never read the entire Bible although I am familiar with many of the teachings contained therein and I try to live my life in a way that Jesus would have approved of. I acknowledge that I have sinned but I also am comforted by knowing that God is merciful, that if I believe that Jesus is the Son of God my sins will be forgiven - and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

The other day I had lunch with a close friend who I knew to be a devout and zealous Christian. Knowing this I had always avoided any discussion about religion although we had occasionally discussed generally the issue of the increasing conflict between Islam/Muslim and Christianity. Somehow our discussion devolved to my attitude toward Islam and other religions and heaven. I admitted to being tolerant of anybody who practiced another religion as long as they were good, loving and peaceful people – and of course were equally acceptable of Christians. I then said something that really set him off - that since the entire universe and all within it was created by God, and only one God, and that God is merciful, therefore God (the Father) is tolerant of those who may not have experienced or even were aware of Jesus, his Son and further that maybe, just maybe, we all ultimately worshiped the same God.

His response was strong - that the only way to be “saved” and go to Heaven is to accept unquestionably the proclamation by Jesus that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He then angrily accused me of not being a Christian, that I was a heretic and that I was going to Hell and when the world ended they only ones admitted to heaven were true believers – and I obviously wasn’t one.

To say that I was stunned and shaken would be an understatement. I can see that strictly speaking he is correct but I can’t believe that the God that I worship is so unmerciful as to exclude good people, just as I can’t accept that had the world ended on the day of the Resurrection the only people that would have been admitted to Heaven would have been Mary, Joseph, the twelve apostles and a few hundred other believers – and that all others on the face of the earth would have been relegated to Hell.

Now, my feelings are conflicted and I have to ask the question – am I a Christian or not - or a heretic?

Some people will consider you a Christian, others will likely think you're a heretic and some will think you're not good enough of a Christian to call yourself one. Everyone has different standards, so it really all depends on what you think of yourself.

Your relationship with God, your heart, your faith, that's all that matters. Ignore the fundies, you'll never be good enough for them anyway. Besides, it's not Christians you need to gain the approval of, it's God.

 

[jeager106]

It don't make no never mind about labels.
Do what you do; do well.
Love ya.