Am I More Moral Than God?

[PureX]

Since 'morality' is a human invention, why not?

@GreyHam: Atheistic and theistic viewpoints concern themselves with matters of faith, they do not require scientific evidence to back them up.

Yup. It's entirely possible that we are "more moral than God".

 

[PureX]

Well me, being a universal moral absolutist, I believe that there is an objective absolute moral guideline for everyone... I would define goodness as "closeness to the desires of God" and the measurer, of course, would be the Lord Himself

The difficulty here, though, is that you are defining for yourself who/what "the Lord" is. So it's really you who is defining what's the "absolute moral good". It's kind of a clever intellectual shell game, where no matter which shell the pea is under, it's always under your shell.

 

[PureX]

"Goodness has nothing to do with it." Mae West

I love Mae West, a strait talkin', stand up 'broad', who could go toe to toe with old W.C.Fields and come out if not with the last word, with the funniest.

Here's one of my other favorites: in the movie "Unforgiven", just before William Munny (Clint Eastwood) unloads both shot gun barrels into Gene Hackman's face at point blank range, Gene's character says "I don't deserve to die like this!", and William Munny says: "Deserves got nothin' to do with it" ... BANG! *smile*

 

[Matt88]

there is no way to prove whether you are or not. Most religious texts say god is perfect, so if i were to use that as evidence, then no, you are not. A mere mortal cannot go up against an omnipresent, immortal and perfect deity.

But there is no actual proof to back up whether there is a god, so there is no real answer because there is nothing tangible you can compare yourself to.

 

[Matt88]

BTW, i would've killed that damned bug.

 

[retrorich]

BTW, i would've killed that damned bug.

Why? Would you have felt any sense of remorse for doing so?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why? Would you have felt any sense of remorse for doing so?

Incidently, I sprayed my backyard with ultra-bugkiller last night in preparation for a BBQ tomorrow. I took out my guitar and played the blues while birds swarmed the yard eating all the dying insects. It was wonderful.

BTW, my dad has owned his own bug-killing business for the past 20 years. :beach:

 

[stemann]

atheists refute the existence of a divine power. yet there is not enough evidence either to prove or deny that a divine power exists, so the hard rejection of it is quite stubborn in my opinion

'Theists refute the non-existence of a divine power, yet there is not enough evidence either to prove or deny that a divine power does not exist, so the hard rejection of it is quite stubborn in my opinion.'

Why is your quote right and the one just below it not?

 

[Matt88]

Why? Would you have felt any sense of remorse for doing so?

im arachnaphobic. i hate spiders with a passion, and i also hate bugs, but not to the degree i hate spiders. I would have felt no remorse for killing it, probabaly would have rejoiced. i hate bugs.

 

[michel]

Why? Would you have felt any sense of remorse for doing so?

I would; I know it sounds silly, but (especially when I am cleaning), I see an insect scurry from a corner, I am careful to pick it up gently and put it in the garden, though sometimes I haven't seen them in time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I would; I know it sounds silly, but (especially when I am cleaning), I see an insect scurry from a corner, I am careful to pick it up gently and put it in the garden, though sometimes I haven't seen them in time.

I will do the same if it's not a pest. IMO, flies, roaches, fleas, ticks, and misquitos do not deserve to live. :thud:

 

[SoyLeche]

I will do the same if it's not a pest. IMO, flies, roaches, fleas, ticks, and misquitos do not deserve to live. :thud:

We've got huge crickets that look like spiders around here. If one comes into the house, it will get a shot of Raid. That takes them out pretty darn quick.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

We've got huge crickets that look like spiders around here. If one comes into the house, it will get a shot of Raid. That takes them out pretty darn quick.

I enjoy dousing bugs with lighter fluid and... well....

Few things are funner than clearing out hornet nests in the Texas hill country with that flying insect killer stuff. What a rush....

 

[Aqualung]

Sooo... Are we going to get any other definition of "moral" (one that doesn't use the word good) or is this thread dying?

There was a huge centipede in my room the other day. Raid did absolutely nothing. I had to squish it with my foot. Eew.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sooo... Are we going to get any other definition of "moral" (one that doesn't use the word good) or is this thread dying?

I don't see how that will do any good at all. I changed moral to "humane" because there are simply too many ideas to define and presuppositions and premises to defend to even pretend like we can come up with an answer to the OP from any kind of logical framework.

Some problems:

1) We cannot prove that God exists
2) Some people will challenge that even we exist: how do we know?
3) How in the hell can we measure ourselves against God even if we can prove that she exists?

Defining morality - with all the problems that come up in drawing a definition - is but a small problem in responding to the question.

However, if we flood the issue with hypothetical assumptions:

1) That God exists as all-powerful and all-knowing (etc)
1a God exists as Creator and we exist as the created
1b Being created, we do not have the power of God to create
2) God establishes morality
2a We imitate God's morality according to power that God gives us to choose and interact with the creation
3) God is good and just and does not violate her morality

Assumption #2 I think would rule out that any of us can be more moral that God because that would limit God's power in a way that .

Every point is disputable. Obviously. It may be more constructive to assume that God gave humanity some revelation of herself that could be standardized into written form that is accepted by a faith community.

Sometimes we just ask too much.

 

[retrorich]

Sooo... Are we going to get any other definition of "moral" (one that doesn't use the word good)?

1mor•al \"mÕr-€l\ adj 1 : of or relating to principles of right and wrong 2 : conforming to a standard of right behavior; also : capable of right and wrong action 3 : probable but not proved <a ~ certainty> 4 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a ~ victory> syn virtuous, righteous, noble, ethical, principled — mor•al•ly adv
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

 

[michel]

1mor•al \"mÕr-€l\ adj 1 : of or relating to principles of right and wrong 2 : conforming to a standard of right behavior; also : capable of right and wrong action 3 : probable but not proved <a ~ certainty> 4 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a ~ victory> syn virtuous, righteous, noble, ethical, principled — mor•al•ly adv
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

That's all very well Rich, but right and wrong are both dependent on culture.

For example (a quick one I can think of); the sacred 'cow' in India. It is wrong to kill a cow in India (to be fair I don't know where the word 'moral' would work in that example.

You see, "right behaviour" is very much governed by which culture you are in at the time.

 

[retrorich]

That's all very well Rich, but right and wrong are both dependent on culture.

For example (a quick one I can think of); the sacred 'cow' in India. It is wrong to kill a cow in India (to be fair I don't know where the word 'moral' would work in that example.

You see, "right behaviour" is very much governed by which culture you are in at the time.

Undoubtedly, culture is a major factor in one's concept of right and wrong. However, I believe individuals can develop their own personal concepts of right and wrong, not governed by the beliefs and practices of others (culture).

cul•ture \"k€l-ch€r\ n 1 : tillage, cultivation 2 : the act of developing by education and training 3 : refinement of intellectual and artistic taste 4 : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group — cul•tur•al \"k€l-ch€-r€l\ adj — cul•tur•al•ly adv — cul•tured \-ch€rd\ a
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

 

[SoyLeche]

Undoubtedly, culture is a major factor in one's concept of right and wrong. However, I believe individuals can develop their own personal concepts of right and wrong, not governed by the beliefs and practices of others (culture).

cul•ture \"k€l-ch€r\ n 1 : tillage, cultivation 2 : the act of developing by education and training 3 : refinement of intellectual and artistic taste 4 : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group — cul•tur•al \"k€l-ch€-r€l\ adj — cul•tur•al•ly adv — cul•tured \-ch€rd\ a
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

If we can develope our own peronal concepts of right and wrong, then why can't God have a different concept than you? If there is no absolute standard, comparison is impossible.

I'm still waiting for an answer from you about the mosquito, BTW.

 

[michel]

Undoubtedly, culture is a major factor in one's concept of right and wrong. However, I believe individuals can develop their own personal concepts of right and wrong, not governed by the beliefs and practices of others (culture).

cul•ture \"k€l-ch€r\ n 1 : tillage, cultivation 2 : the act of developing by education and training 3 : refinement of intellectual and artistic taste 4 : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group — cul•tur•al \"k€l-ch€-r€l\ adj — cul•tur•al•ly adv — cul•tured \-ch€rd\ a
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

Which is probably why we have a problem (as I see it) in the Western world, because different groups are making their own judgement on "right" and "Wrong". Our culture has become so personalised ( maybe even through Religious groups) that there is no absolute common factor.

I am thinking of this in tandem with, say the Muslims, who (as far as I know) are all governed by the same Islamic faith.

Presumably, that gives them the ability to be more consistant in their judgements.