Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World

[Muffled]

Maybe you should try not believing so many things.

I believe a person without beiefs is like a grain of sand blown this way and that with no stability and no solid truth.

 

[Muffled]

You're not wrong to believe whatever you want, as long as it's not forced down someone's throat.

I believe believing what one wants can do the person a great deal of harm.

I believe what is sometimes considered force is simply persuasion. A loving person will try to get a person to believe the truth so that harm will not befall them.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Is God operating in the world? One word can answer that:

Holocaust.

 

[JJ50]

I believe believing what one wants can do the person a great deal of harm.

I believe what is sometimes considered force is simply persuasion. A loving person will try to get a person to believe the truth so that harm will not befall them.

It depends what their so called 'truth' is!

 

[Jim]

@Lionel Refson I searched through this thread for an answer to this question, and didn’t find it. What are your reasons for thinking.that Genesis through 9:19 is from God, and in what way do you mean that it was from God? Was all of it actual spoken words that some people heard? Was it words that God put directly into some people’s minds? Was it something that some people were born with, that brought those words to their minds at some time during their lives? What do you mean by saying that it’s from God, and what are your reasons for thinking that?

 

[stvdv]

In it, it does not say that Cain's choice was "bad or rotten" ( respectfully, those are the words you used ). It only indicates that they were common

I like the below Bible: Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Berei****)
Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord.;
Fruit of the soil, means to me a fruit from "mother earth"
a) Meaning it is not animal Food
b) Mother Earth is God. So Cain was offering to God a fruit, that God gave Him (God being Mother Earth). And that is not proper of Cain.

My Master has been very specific on this subject: "It is not proper to offer to God anything, because God owns everything; He is the giver ... how dare you give to Him what already belongs to Him. The best you can offer are your `bad habits`. God gave you a pure heart when you were born. When you die the best you can offer to God is `a pure heart`. That is all that God asks for"

Knowing this, the whole Genesis story makes perfect sense to me. Offering fruits or animals or even your son to God makes totally no sense IMO. I have never believed in these things. I have always known that it is about your heart, not about material gifts. We are talking about God, not a little boy who likes to get a birthday gift.

That is how I see it: Even if my Master had said the opposite, I would not have believed Him. Because I love my Spiritual Book "the Yoga Vasistha" which states "trust your own conscience ... even if Shiva himself tells you something that goes against your conscience discard Shiva. And even when a beggar tells you something that feels good accept it".

But maybe you are right, and I am wrong. I am fine with that. I just follow my heart, that is all God wants me to do.

Normally, when offering something to someone else (not God!!!), of course it's good to offer from the heart. And obviously Cain was not offering from the heart (as I explained before), because he got angry (and killed his own brother even, and lying about it to God). So, again, this is what it's all about IMO. God cares about your heart, not your money (fruits or animal). I can give you yet another nice clue here. Abel offered an animal, meaning he offered his "animal habits"; Abel did not get angry. Cain should have offered his animal habits to God. So this whole offering IMHO is all about symbolism, has little to do with money/fruits etc.

So I suggest we "agree to disagree on this one". For me there is not 1 thread of doubt in my mind about this story. To me it all makes perfect sense how I see it now. But in the end it's only God who knows why He did what He did (accepting Abel's offering and rejecting Cain's)

 

[dybmh]

I like the below Bible: Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Berei****)
Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord.;
Fruit of the soil, means to me a fruit from "mother earth"
a) Meaning it is not animal Food
b) Mother Earth is God. So Cain was offering to God a fruit, that God gave Him (God being Mother Earth). And that is not proper of Cain.

My Master has been very specific on this subject: "It is not proper to offer to God anything, because God owns everything; He is the giver ... how dare you give to Him what already belongs to Him. The best you can offer are your `bad habits`. God gave you a pure heart when you were born. When you die the best you can offer to God is `a pure heart`. That is all that God asks for"

Knowing this, the whole Genesis story makes perfect sense to me. Offering fruits or animals or even your son to God makes totally no sense IMO. I have never believed in these things. I have always known that it is about your heart, not about material gifts. We are talking about God, not a little boy who likes to get a birthday gift.

That is how I see it: Even if my Master had said the opposite, I would not have believed Him. Because I love my Spiritual Book "the Yoga Vasistha" which states "trust your own conscience ... even if Shiva himself tells you something that goes against your conscience discard Shiva. And even when a beggar tells you something that feels good accept it".

But maybe you are right, and I am wrong. I am fine with that. I just follow my heart, that is all God wants me to do.

Normally, when offering something to someone else (not God!!!), of course it's good to offer from the heart. And obviously Cain was not offering from the heart (as I explained before), because he got angry (and killed his own brother even, and lying about it to God). So, again, this is what it's all about IMO. God cares about your heart, not your money (fruits or animal). I can give you yet another nice clue here. Abel offered an animal, meaning he offered his "animal habits"; Abel did not get angry. Cain should have offered his animal habits to God. So this whole offering IMHO is all about symbolism, has little to do with money/fruits etc.

So I suggest we "agree to disagree on this one". For me there is not 1 thread of doubt in my mind about this story. To me it all makes perfect sense how I see it now. But in the end it's only God who knows why He did what He did (accepting Abel's offering and rejecting Cain's)

I certainly agree there are many many ways of reading this story. I proposed the one that makes most sense to me, because it is based on the Hebrew words themselves. I replied with the additional detail because, IMHO, the interpretation I wrote about is the opposite of speculation. it is an attempt to avoid speculation.

 

[stvdv]

I certainly agree there are many many ways of reading this story. I proposed the one that makes most sense to me, because it is based on the Hebrew words themselves. I replied with the additional detail because, IMHO, the interpretation I wrote about is the opposite of speculation. it is an attempt to avoid speculation.

I understand you try to avoid speculation. So I put the exact verses from the "chabad.org" Bible ... today I was told I MUST use this one

2And she continued to bear his brother Abel, and Abel was a shepherd of flocks, and Cain was a tiller of the soil.
3Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord.
4And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering.
5But to Cain and to his offering He did not turn, and it annoyed Cain exceedingly, and his countenance fell.
6And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?
7Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Verse 2 tells that "Cain was a tiller of the soil", verse 2 tells that "Abel was a shepherd of flocks"
So verse 3 + 4 are exactly in line with verse 2.
Even in verse 4 is said "he too" ... this clearly implies that Cain also brought of the firstborn of "his soil and of their fattest"
So the offerings were identical in quality, of course according to their respective profession. But not 1 better than the other, according to the verses

Then verse 4+5 says that the Lord turned to Abel and his offering and not to Cain and his offering
God did not give a reason why He did what He did. So it would be speculation to fill in what God was thinking at that moment (because it is not written here)

BUT: then it continues and it is written that Cain got annoyed and his countenance fell.
AND: now the Lord starts talking about this emotion of Cain (not about the offerings given). So clearly it's about the emotions, not the offerings

Spoiler: My personal experience, why I avoid speculation and rather stick to the verses

Once My Master told me "stay outside" ... I knew He meant don't enter my ashram, but I did it anyway (my mind said "I did nothing wrong") ... He came to me, and told me point blanc "get out" ... very specific to the point. No speculation needed. Just do as Master tells me.

So if the offering was the main problem (lesson God wanted to teach), I would believe God would start about the offering. God did not do that.
God started about the emotion. So I do not speculate. This is what God did, so this is what it is all about. I am very simple in this regard. I made once a big mistake going against the words of my Master (did it 3 times, but got scolded 3 times and so loud that 1 month later all people still asked me "what did you do wrong, He was so mad at you?"). I learned my lesson the hard way (now I can laugh about it, not so much at the time it happened ... I wanted to die ... stopped eating and drinking even telling my Master "I die, unless you invite me back in") ... do not speculate (think too much) about God's words. God will not beat around the bush. If the lesson is about emotions, He talks about emotions. If it is about offerings He talks about offerings. That is my experience. Of course God can do anything, and He does probably (so I can be wrong). But I decided to keep it simple. What I see is what I get. Here it clearly is about emotion.

THEN verse 7 goes even deeper into this emotion. "Improve your anger and it will be forgiven. If not ... sin is lying ... you can rule". And later on we read that he kills his brother. Because he let anger overpower him, not rule the anger. God warned him about this event in verse 7.

So, of course on the surface it seems to be about the offerings. But reading the whole context with anger leading to killing, it's not at all about the offerings anymore. It's like "you drive through red traffic light and kill someone". The judge will focus on the killing part, not so much on the red lights anymore when determining the number of years in jail.

To me this makes sense, don't you think? The food interpretation is possible for me too. In Genesis God gives fruits to the human to eat (so of course Cain should not give this to God in return; or do you think that is the right thing to do?). And Abel gave animal to God (not eating himself, as God gave them "seed and seed bearing fruits to eat" + Abel shows to God that he takes good care of the animals (something God told also in Genesis). So in this way it all looks correct as seen in the context of the whole Genesis story.
I think the emotional part interpretation is a nice addition to the offering interpretation. Anyway it is an interesting story. Took me many years to get this one figured out (and I still can be wrong, but now it does make sense to me; both ways).

So the Bible is a great Book IMO. So many levels to read the Bible. It's more about the lessons I can learn than about "Truth" to me. It's about "human evolution" as I see it. And every time I read it, I find new puzzle pieces. That is what I like about the Scriptures. I do believe they are Divine inspired.

 

[stvdv]

Here are links to the interlinear versions of Gen 4:3 and Gen 4:4.

thanks for the links to the word for word translation ... I did not have this one. Always good/handy to have if I get stuck

 

[Lionel Refson]

Only use chabad transalation imo

This is what I did, how I got to where I got to. I allowed my child- like self, who thought God beautiful, wondrous and kind, and took yet another look at the Bible. I started it in 2000, when I broke free from Falun Gong and returned to the teachings of my strictish jewish upbringing, which I rejected and started to think for myself again )spent years studying the tao and buddhism before)
I started to read and held my child like heart (see jesus's verse about children, in matthew) in wonder. But I also remembered to switch on my rational adult thinking brain and kept both in mind at the same time
So every time I thought "God, that was cruel", or "God that was nasty of you", or "what and why why did you drown, what you drowned and also create the nephilim I stopped at the question and reminded myself I was NOT looking for a human I was looking for GOD, Perfection, omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing all-'seeing divine the ONE,
So whatever the question I could find a feasible explanation for it. And there are many, some very hard for us to understand, In the end I found what I found. It is on here

I really really want to know if others can come to the same conclusion as I have, because the way I broke free from Falun Gong (truth compassion forebearance) was remembering that. at that time all I ever truly had in my heart was God. Now I have wifey and kiddies
I had known long before falun gong that God could not possibly be on this world, given the horrors we have witnessed for centuries, so I retraced my steps and got there.

Of course I may not have found God at all, I might have found, myself....and this is why I did this thread, You can help me by doing what I did Think of your first-born son/daughter in your hands, and the others that you have had , for the first time if you want to understand what child-like wonder really is ...or remember the love you had for your mum or dad , or grandad to recapture this child-like wonder
What is that quote again Matthew 18:2-3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

But without your rational mind switched on as well, you will lose that love quickly. So find the solution, ie the most feasible possibility, whether humanity can accept that or not.

IT IS ALL MY OPINION..mods

Does anyone reach the same conclusion as me . If so I have a view of how an inarguable belief like this can help the sort of people I've been banging on about all over the place

 

[Lionel Refson]

Is God operating in the world? One word can answer that:

Holocaust.

I understand you try to avoid speculation. So I put the exact verses from the "chabad.org" Bible ... today I was told I MUST use this one

Verse 2 tells that "Cain was a tiller of the soil", verse 2 tells that "Abel was a shepherd of flocks"
So verse 3 + 4 are exactly in line with verse 2.
Even in verse 4 is said "he too" ... this clearly implies that Cain also brought of the firstborn of "his soil and of their fattest"
So the offerings were identical in quality, of course according to their respective profession. But not 1 better than the other, according to the verses

Then verse 4+5 says that the Lord turned to Abel and his offering and not to Cain and his offering
God did not give a reason why He did what He did. So it would be speculation to fill in what God was thinking at that moment (because it is not written here)

BUT: then it continues and it is written that Cain got annoyed and his countenance fell.
AND: now the Lord starts talking about this emotion of Cain (not about the offerings given). So clearly it's about the emotions, not the offerings

Spoiler: My personal experience, why I avoid speculation and rather stick to the verses

Once My Master told me "stay outside" ... I knew He meant don't enter my ashram, but I did it anyway (my mind said "I did nothing wrong") ... He came to me, and told me point blanc "get out" ... very specific to the point. No speculation needed. Just do as Master tells me.

So if the offering was the main problem (lesson God wanted to teach), I would believe God would start about the offering. God did not do that.
God started about the emotion. So I do not speculate. This is what God did, so this is what it is all about. I am very simple in this regard. I made once a big mistake going against the words of my Master (did it 3 times, but got scolded 3 times and so loud that 1 month later all people still asked me "what did you do wrong, He was so mad at you?"). I learned my lesson the hard way (now I can laugh about it, not so much at the time it happened ... I wanted to die ... stopped eating and drinking even telling my Master "I die, unless you invite me back in") ... do not speculate (think too much) about God's words. God will not beat around the bush. If the lesson is about emotions, He talks about emotions. If it is about offerings He talks about offerings. That is my experience. Of course God can do anything, and He does probably (so I can be wrong). But I decided to keep it simple. What I see is what I get. Here it clearly is about emotion.

THEN verse 7 goes even deeper into this emotion. "Improve your anger and it will be forgiven. If not ... sin is lying ... you can rule". And later on we read that he kills his brother. Because he let anger overpower him, not rule the anger. God warned him about this event in verse 7.

So, of course on the surface it seems to be about the offerings. But reading the whole context with anger leading to killing, it's not at all about the offerings anymore. It's like "you drive through red traffic light and kill someone". The judge will focus on the killing part, not so much on the red lights anymore when determining the number of years in jail.

To me this makes sense, don't you think? The food interpretation is possible for me too. In Genesis God gives fruits to the human to eat (so of course Cain should not give this to God in return; or do you think that is the right thing to do?). And Abel gave animal to God (not eating himself, as God gave them "seed and seed bearing fruits to eat" + Abel shows to God that he takes good care of the animals (something God told also in Genesis). So in this way it all looks correct as seen in the context of the whole Genesis story.
I think the emotional part interpretation is a nice addition to the offering interpretation. Anyway it is an interesting story. Took me many years to get this one figured out (and I still can be wrong, but now it does make sense to me; both ways).

So the Bible is a great Book IMO. So many levels to read the Bible. It's more about the lessons I can learn than about "Truth" to me. It's about "human evolution" as I see it. And every time I read it, I find new puzzle pieces. That is what I like about the Scriptures. I do believe they are Divine inspired.

....and so Abel was sacrificed (and no doubt that would have been Abel's greatest wish because he loved God so much) by God to show the world that anger is wrong,and that as God spared Cain, God shows us what mercy is and that God is merciful.BUT God does not interfere here due to our choice for freewill

 

[JJ50]

....and so Abel was sacrificed (and no doubt that would have been Abel's greatest wish because he loved God so much) by God to show the world that anger is wrong,and that as God spared Cain, God shows us what mercy is and that God is merciful.BUT God does not interfere here due to our choice for freewill

There is nothing merciful about the Biblical god, hopefully if is a story book character and doesn't exist in reality, there is no evidence that it does.

 

[Lionel Refson]

There is nothing merciful about the Biblical god, hopefully if is a story book character and doesn't exist in reality, there is no evidence that it does.

God has not been in this world since Gen 9:19. Everything that you read about God not being merciful is tribal self-interest babble. The point is that God demonstrated to us what mercy is ie re Adam and Eve and Cain. IMO you must read the Bible as I am described above ie

I started to read and held my child like heart (see jesus's verse about children, in matthew) in wonder. But I also remembered to switch on my rational adult thinking brain and kept both in mind at the same time
So every time I thought "God, that was cruel", or "God that was nasty of you", or "what and why why did you drown, what you drowned and also create the nephilim I stopped at the question and reminded myself I was NOT looking for a human I was looking for GOD, Perfection, omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing all-'seeing divine the ONE,
So whatever the question I could find a feasible explanation for it. And there are many, some very hard for us to understand,

 

[stvdv]

Abel was sacrificed (and no doubt that would have been Abel's greatest wish because he loved God so much

I would not go that far to say "no doubt" that Abel's greatest wish was to be sacrificed (murdered by his brother). It might have been his wish maybe.
If you Love God so much then there is no wish to be killed according to Advaita ... when there is the highest love there is no mind (for sure no wish)

 

[stvdv]

Abel was sacrificed by God to show the world that anger is wrong

I am not sure whether God judges in right and wrong. That is speculation to me. I do know that there is action/reaction when anger is expressed

 

[stvdv]

as God spared Cain, God shows us what mercy is and that God is merciful

That seems to be the case. So God does not seem to be a "hanging judge", more the witness IMHO.

 

[stvdv]

BUT God does not interfere here due to our choice for freewill

I am very careful to interpret "why God does anything". To me speculation, and speculation about God reeks to Blasphemy, and this I rather avoid

 

[stvdv]

God does not interfere here due to our choice for freewill

As far as I see it nowadays: God maybe has freewill, but humans wish they had. At best humans have "free choice" ... maybe

 

[Lionel Refson]

I am very careful to interpret "why God does anything". To me speculation, and speculation about God reeks to Blasphemy, and this I rather avoid

There is no such thing as blasphemy. When God Blessed us all and gave us his Covenant in Gen 9 where did God mention blasphemy?. Blasphemy is an invention of self-interested controlling tribes, to keep the plebs in check.

The Blessing and Covenant is as important for what it does not contain as to what it does and if you believe that when God spoke, God knew our future, which is exactly what I believe , then it is safe to assume that what God gave us (for everlasting generations) is exactly what God wanted to give us.....no more no less ie no religious decrees, no prayer rituals, no blasphemy laws etc etc If you believe that God is ONE God would only ever have to speak to the sum total of humanity (ie Noah and his sons)..........ONCE

 

[stvdv]

There is no such thing as blasphemy. When God Blessed us all and gave us his Covenant in Gen 9 where did God mention blasphemy?. Blasphemy is an invention of self-interested controlling tribes, to keep the plebs in check.

The Blessing and Covenant is as important for what it does not contain as to what it does and if you believe that when God spoke, God knew our future, which is exactly what I believe , then it is safe to assume that what God gave us (for everlasting generations) is exactly what God wanted to give us.....no more no less ie no religious decrees, no prayer rituals, no blasphemy laws etc etc If you believe that God is ONE God would only ever have to speak to the sum total of humanity (ie Noah and his sons)..........ONCE

When I say blasphemy then I mean "to pretend that you know what God will/shall/should/could/would do etc.". To sit on God's chair so to speak. You write all the time as if you know exactly everything what God needs/can/shoud/would/could do. I just do not know anything about God at all.

For me most is hearsay. Is it true that you know all this for a fact or "safe to assume" etc?