AMA: Practioner of Thelema

[Octavia156]

Yeh I think that is a common misconception....

it was just co-incidence that Crowley recieved the Book of the Law in Cairo on his honeymoon. He could have been in Inida or any where esle.

Thelema is very qabalistic (so Hebrew origins) it has Egyption referencences (due to it connections) but also ahuge about of Yoga and Eastern Mysticism (Crowley's passion at the time).

What makes OTO stand out as a freemasonic organisation is it takes the Western Esoteric Tradition of initation and combines it with Eastern tantric teachings. As far as a know its the only coherent system to have done this.

 

[Octavia156]

The thing for me is that the entire foundation is obviously Egyptian, with Egyptian myth at the center. Considering that Crowley was all about correspondences, it seems to me he just took from Egyptian and Hebrew religions and made everything fit with them.

I dont think AC put any more emphasis on Egyptian correspondences than he did any other system.

Take his 8 lectures in Yoga
His Ko HsUan translation of the Tao Te Ching


People get confused and think Nuit, Hadit and Ra HoorKuit are Egpytian - they aren't. They look similar so the misunderstadning is understandable and you shouldn't blame yourself for being confused. But Crowley was no more into Egyptian mythos than any other, perhaps even less so. Though certain Thelemic artifacts are Egyptian in source eg The Stele of Revealing - but agan this is circumstancial) Isis, Osiris and and Horus are only relevent went it comes to the model of aeonic succession (and again its just a model). These gods have no specific relevance in Thelema

 

[Covellite]

Is Thelema fundamentally an ETs religion? A.C. claimed that he received the most valuable information directly from Aiwass, extraterrestrial non-corporeal being, separated from himself. He said that knowledge is immeasurably superior to his own or any other human could possibly have.
Hoor-paar-kraat, or "Horus the Child", according to A.C, represents the Higher Self, the Holy Guardian Angel.
A.C. later identified Aiwass as his Holy Guardian Angel. He even described him to be a tall, dark man in his thirties, well-knit, active and strong, with the face of a savage king, and eyes veiled lest their gaze should destroy what they saw. He also said that Aiwass was an "angel" he had often seen in visions, a being purely astral. So, was he/his higher self an ET?

 

[Octavia156]

Is Thelema fundamentally an ETs religion? A.C. claimed that he received the most valuable information directly from Aiwass, extraterrestrial non-corporeal being, separated from himself. He said that knowledge is immeasurably superior to his own or any other human could possibly have.
Hoor-paar-kraat, or "Horus the Child", according to A.C, represents the Higher Self, the Holy Guardian Angel.
A.C. later identified Aiwass as his Holy Guardian Angel. He even described him to be a tall, dark man in his thirties, well-knit, active and strong, with the face of a savage king, and eyes veiled lest their gaze should destroy what they saw. He also said that Aiwass was an "angel" he had often seen in visions, a being purely astral. So, was he/his higher self an ET?

your guess is as good as mine on this....

 

[Desert Snake]

Yeh I think that is a common misconception....

it was just co-incidence that Crowley recieved the Book of the Law in Cairo on his honeymoon. He could have been in Inida or any where esle.

Thelema is very qabalistic (so Hebrew origins) it has Egyption referencences (due to it connections) but also ahuge about of Yoga and Eastern Mysticism (Crowley's passion at the time).

What makes OTO stand out as a freemasonic organisation is it takes the Western Esoteric Tradition of initation and combines it with Eastern tantric teachings. As far as a know its the only coherent system to have done this.

I noticed reference to Christian theology, as well, in the Thelemic Qabala, /that you linked/.

 

[1137]

So Nuit, Horus, Ra, none of that good stuff is Egyptian at all, right? And groups at least like the GD and AA certainly don't have rituals massively focused on Egyptian mythology... I mean, it's like we're looking at different versions of history here.

 

[Octavia156]

Hours and Ra are Egyptian yes.
Nuit is new but derived from Nu you could say.
Hadit is new and Ra-Hoor-Kuit et al are new derivatives of Hours

Egyptian inspired I suppose

But then many of the other godforms in Thelema GD, AA have taken inspiration from non-egyptian origin: Hermeticism, Jewish Kabbalah, Roman, Greek, Enochian, Christian Gnosticism, Sufism....

 

[1137]

Hours and Ra are Egyptian yes.
Nuit is new but derived from Nu you could say.

Who is Egyptian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_(mythology)

Hadit is new

No.
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/horusbehedet.html

and Ra-Hoor-Kuit et al are new derivatives of Hours

also no
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#Relationship_to_other_gods

 

[Octavia156]

I don't understand your point.

I agreed with you Nu Horus and Ra were Egyptian.....

Nowhere in traditional Egypt ology do you find the names Nuit Hadit or Ra-Hoor-Kuit.

You find only their derivatives/what they derive from godwise

As I said in previous post. Totally don't get what you are disagreeing with here or why the contention...

 

[1137]

I don't understand your point.

I agreed with you Nu Horus and Ra were Egyptian.....

They are all Egyptian, all the foundational beings, making Thelema founded on Egyptian religion. Hadit was a *proven* mistranslation, and the third speaker is a previously known form of Ra. The only arguably non-Egyptian deity is Aiwass.

 

[Octavia156]

They are all Egyptian, all the foundational beings, making Thelema founded on Egyptian religion. Hadit was a *proven* mistranslation, and the third speaker is a previously known form of Ra. The only arguably non-Egyptian deity is Aiwass.

If you wish to believe that Thelema is an Egyptian religion then that's totally fine to have your opinion.

I personally don't think it's that simple, I see it had Egyptian influences (due to the circumstance of the reception of Liber Al)

But I do not see Thelema as an "Egyptian based religion" it is far more complex imo

 

[Octavia156]

Not sure about your "proven" mistranslation of Hadit and RHK being previously known as Ra.

I'd need a source for this theory. I'm looking at the original manuscript right here and I see no ambiguity...

 

[1137]

Not sure about your "proven" mistranslation of Hadit and RHK being previously known as Ra.

I'd need a source for this theory. I'm looking at the original manuscript right here and I see no ambiguity...

The manuscript we already know was tampered with to fit Crowley's needs? Are we just ignoring the influence and importance of the Stele of Revealing on this whole situation?

 

[Octavia156]

Like I said I'm certainly not ignoring the Egyptian influences. They played an enormous part. But what was created was something new with a number of other important aspects and systems feeding into it.

 

[1137]

With the changes in what we know about world religion, how do you or the OTO feel about things like 777? When you talk about working with other religious frameworks than Egyptian, is it in a correspondences type of way?

 

[Octavia156]

Yes very much a qabalistic one. Thelema And OTO are separate entities - that should be clarified, and I can never say what "the OTO feels", however I can say the both systems rely heavily on qabala, the OTO uses the chakra system from yogic teachings as well as Eastern tantra.

The BotL says
(I:37) Also the mantras and spells; the obeah and the wanga; the work of the wand and the work of the sword; these he shall learn and teach.

So I interpret that all forms of Magick can be incorporated into Thelemic practise.

But also
(II:5) Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.

So there is a value judgement to be made about which of the old systems are now defunct and which are still useful.

 

[1137]

So it's admittedly founded on Egyptian deities and admittedly a path using correspondences to those deities, rather than the actual other religions themselves?

 

[Octavia156]

I dont see a link between Egpytian deities and the roots of the Qabala, or of the Eastern esoteric traditions, I would say the system is founded on many things. Qabala is hugely important, inlcuding gematria.

There is reference to it
(II:55). Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto.

also

(I:57) All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise.

This is a a direct refrence to the Tarot, which is definitely not of Egyptian origin, but more recently firmly based in the system of the Qabala.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Egyptian symbolism played a part in the context of the reception and natures of the speakers of the Book of the Law, I'm not sure why you seem so adament that the foundation of Thelema is purely Egyptian?

 

[1137]

Would it be fair to call Kaballah foundational?

 

[Octavia156]

Would it be fair to call Kaballah foundational?

I don't know where to begin answering this.

Qabala is a model that could be the foundation of anything and everything....