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America anti-abortion proven unscientific and killing women

Select the answers below you agree with:

  • 01: Personally I am "against abortion", period.

  • 02: My Religion is "against abortion"

  • 03: Personally for me abortion is okay under some circumstances (e.g. rape)

  • 04: Abortion should be the women's right to choose

  • 05: Government should never impose this anti abortion law

  • 06: I believe the government has a hidden agenda with this law

  • 07: I believe this anti abortion law is linked with covid's new restrictions/laws

  • 08: I believe education to avoid abortion is better than "anti abortion law"

  • 09: I believe this anti abortion law is created from Religious POV

  • 10: I believe this anti abortion law is not created from Religious POV


Results are only viewable after voting.

stvdv

Veteran Member
America's anti-abortion proven unscientific and killing women

Some real facts presented by an Indian journalist, PalkiSharma, my favorite from WION. I think...well it must be the case, otherwise the court's case would not hold, that American news won't be told these facts

Below a video of 9min18sec about abortion:

NOTE: Below a video of 9min18sec about abortion: normally I would highlight the most important facts. But I won't this time. Why? Because there are too many, and the video is "too good" to see for yourself. This video proves how Americans are being brainwashed by their social media and their news and their government, and being imposed with this, IMO, crazy "anti abortion law"
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that this video, while containing persuasive facts, is not set up to persuade; because it is in reverse order to a persuasive speech. I think she ought to have presented her material in reverse: first starting with the girl who died in Ireland, then talking about miscarriages and dangers to mothers, then talking about dubious religious convictions about it, then talking about it being painless for the fetus before neocortal development, then building an argument for women to have a right and then acknowledging why people disagree with her view and dealing with their objections.

Good for her to have an understanding of the topic, but you don't get through to an offended friend by giving them the cold shoulder. You have to camp out in their yard. Here in Mississippi (mentioned specifically in the video), we are like an offended friend, because many of us are offended by what we've heard about abortion. We've heard terrible rumors. Do progressives want to reach us? It doesn't sound like it, and they've been using this cold shoulder technique for fifty years. We're not getting the message. I'm not saying that we are right or that its not our fault, but some better attempts at communication might be beneficial for all concerned.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Religiously speaking, I think abortion is wrong.
It is not the right choice.
First, because there are so many contraceptives that greatly reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancies. Secondly, if a healthy woman gets pregnant despite the contraception and is carrying a very healthy baby, there are so many alternatives like adoption and so on.
All this with the utmost respect to the pregnamt woman's psychological welfare.


As a citizen of a secular state, I need to defend the law about abortion. Because it is a right that is given to all women regardless of their religious convictions.
But the very same law states that abortion is doable only within the first trimester.
I will always defend this law, because I am loyal to the secular state.
I cannot disrespect the secularism of the State.
 
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Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
I think that this video, while containing persuasive facts, is not set up to persuade; because it is in reverse order to a persuasive speech. I think she ought to have presented her material in reverse: first starting with the girl who died in Ireland, then talking about miscarriages and dangers to mothers, then talking about dubious religious convictions about it, then talking about it being painless for the fetus before neocortal development, then building an argument for women to have a right and then acknowledging why people disagree with her view and dealing with their objections.

Good for her to have an understanding of the topic, but you don't get through to an offended friend by giving them the cold shoulder. You have to camp out in their yard. Here in Mississippi (mentioned specifically in the video), we are like an offended friend, because many of us are offended by what we've heard about abortion. We've heard terrible rumors. Do progressives want to reach us? It doesn't sound like it, and they've been using this cold shoulder technique for fifty years. We're not getting the message. I'm not saying that we are right or that its not our fault, but some better attempts at communication might be beneficial for all concerned.
I don’t want to get too far off of the OP‘s topic. I voted for #’s 4, 5, 8, and 9.

@Brickjectivity - your statement about people in Mississippi (presumably conservatives) feeling that progressives are not talking to them, that progressives are giving them the cold shoulder. :confused: To me it could not be further from the truth.
From a progressive point of view it seems that we are doing nothing but attempting to educate, talk with, talking to, shouting at, flashing signs in front of, and in every way trying to convince or educate conservatives about the facts on the matter. What we consistently detect is conservatives purposely (and very rudely) turning away from any attempt of being educated.
So my question would be, how can we get through to conservatives when they refuse to listen and in their own minds think that no one is talking to them?

I feel this is very significant because listening to the OP‘s video as well as reviewing the data from this pew research and CDC website

What the data says about abortion in the U.S.

it occurs to me that fewer and fewer abortions have been occurring as more and more people become educated about the subject. To me this is the goal of both progressive and conservatives, to avoid abortions altogether. Education, as always, is the answer.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I think that this video, while containing persuasive facts, is not set up to persuade
True, so good journalism...giving facts without trying to persuade

because it is in reverse order to a persuasive speech
Probably true, though I like her quite a bit, so I had no problem watching it all, and then the order does not matter much for me

I think she ought to have presented her material in reverse: first starting with the girl who died in Ireland, then talking about miscarriages and dangers to mothers, then talking about dubious religious convictions about it, then talking about it being painless for the fetus before neocortal development, then building an argument for women to have a right and then acknowledging why people disagree with her view and dealing with their objections.
Maybe true for most people who need to be "not bored" and kept "to watch it all". I liked it better the way she did it, with the added bonus in the end

Good for her to have an understanding of the topic, but you don't get through to an offended friend by giving them the cold shoulder. You have to camp out in their yard. Here in Mississippi (mentioned specifically in the video), we are like an offended friend, because many of us are offended by what we've heard about abortion. We've heard terrible rumors. Do progressives want to reach us? It doesn't sound like it, and they've been using this cold shoulder technique for fifty years. We're not getting the message. I'm not saying that we are right or that its not our fault, but some better attempts at communication might be beneficial for all concerned.
This part I don't understand well what you mean:
1) Do you think PalkiSharma gave a "cold shoulder"?
2) And "many are offended by what we've heard about abortion", what you mean with that? "which terrible rumors". You think this law is good? Do you think it's better that the government imposes on women, and that women are not capable/able to choose for themselves what is best?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I don’t want to get too far off of the OP‘s topic. I voted for #’s 4, 5, 8, and 9.

@Brickjectivity - your statement about people in Mississippi (presumably conservatives) feeling that progressives are not talking to them, that progressives are giving them the cold shoulder. :confused: To me it could not be further from the truth.
From a progressive point of view it seems that we are doing nothing but attempting to educate, talk with, talking to, shouting at, flashing signs in front of, and in every way trying to convince or educate conservatives about the facts on the matter. What we consistently detect is conservatives purposely (and very rudely) turning away from any attempt of being educated.

So my question would be, how can we get through to conservatives when they refuse to listen and in their own minds think that no one is talking to them?
Religious minds are very difficult to change, because that's what they believe...which would be fine, if they don't bother others with it
Maybe the best way is, to make them see the light, that it's very wrong to "impose your religious unproven views/opinions on others"
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
1) Do you think PalkiSharma gave a "cold shoulder"?
No, however I wouldn't call it journalism so much as repeating agreed upon ideas. She is merely giving her view to people who will like her view, and her view begins by stating that it is progressive to allow abortion. She is giving this video to assure and confirm things to people that already agree with her and to shock them about things in USA and in Mississippi, too. This is very common these days with news shows catering to a particular audience. She assumes that everyone watching already agrees with her, even though she presents facts to confirm what she thinks. So it not neutral and not persuasive either.

2) And "many are offended by what we've heard about abortion", what you mean with that? "which terrible rumors". You think this law is good? Do you think it's better that the government imposes on women, and that women are not capable/able to choose for themselves what is best?
First of all there are many pro life political slogans like "The right to control your body should not include the right to terminate someone else's!" Secondly there are religious claims ranging from the philosophical to the supernatural. "Satan's plan is to kill as many as possible!" and "God hates abortion!" Then there are the pseudo scientific slogans which I'll not repeat. Then there are the historical quote mines such as quotes of pro choice people talking about races. As recently as eighty years ago in my country there has been actual talk about neutering dark skinned americans, and there are arguments that I have encountered (but not listened to) that claim abortion has been legalized to limit the number of non white children. Many things going around are conspiracy theories. Point being, we hear a lot of scary things about abortion; and many of us in church have been told that it is satanic. So, yes, we have heard many scary things. We also have heard many other scary things about progressives, liberals and leftists. You might be surprised, but 'Progressive' does not bring a smile to all faces, here. Now to hear these scary claims I did not have to read anything, to watch any videos, to make any attempt to toxify my mind. They came to me.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I feel this is very significant because listening to the OP‘s video as well as reviewing the data from this pew research and CDC website

What the data says about abortion in the U.S.

it occurs to me that fewer and fewer abortions have been occurring as more and more people become educated about the subject. To me this is the goal of both progressive and conservatives, to avoid abortions altogether. Education, as always, is the answer.
I agree, that is the way to go. (Impose) education is way better than impose this "anti abortion Law"

But what intrigues me is "why they suddenly change this Law". Those in control always have a plan and a purpose. I can't believe it's religious
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You think this law is good? Do you think it's better that the government imposes on women, and that women are not capable/able to choose for themselves what is best?
I think Roman Catholics teach and believe in maximum reproduction. It is a principle to fill the earth with good people. Possibly they will update this once they feel the earth is kind of filling up, but I don't know. This belief in maximal reproduction informs roman catholics, and it affects the recent decision of our Supreme Court which now has 6 catholic justices seated.

Protestants such as baptists tend to believe abortion is an evil. Some believe it is murder perpetuated by an intelligent evil. If you read the works of CS Lewis (theologian and fiction writer who wrote many books) you will see that he believes that evil has an intelligence behind it, and he is quite influential in Christianity today. The belief that evil is intelligent is very common, and so abortion is seen as a possible part of the evil plan.

The supreme court decision was a long time coming. My parents have been opposed to the Roe V. Wade decision for as long as I can remember. The court ruled but was unable to settle the matter, which undermined some of the dignity of the court. A strong supreme court makes decisions that are universally respected. So this decision while I don't agree with it, actually does some good by moving the decision making back to the lawmakers. It should have been them in the first place. They shouldn't have let this be something a court decided.

I care but not like vegetarians care about animals or like moms care about unborn babies. I don't care, because I have no children nor a girl nor a womb. I am continually astonished at people's self deception. They like to believe they care about issues that they will not lift a finger to change. Such care is fake, and there is a lot of it. I'm willing to tell you. I'm not proud of it, but I just don't care. If I cared I'd either be stopping abortion or working to support the rights of women.

But supposing that I actually cared about this issue... I'd say that there is no such thing as a right to abortion, however I'd say that women have authority of life and death over the unborn. They have the duty and the power, and the law should not intervene or judge them. Perhaps there could be a council of women to judge whether abortions are appropriate, but I'd draw the line there. The law does not belong in wombs.

Why a council? Well supposing you were the father and wanted to appeal a decision to abort? You'd want an arbiter, so you could at least be heard on the matter. Anyways, it just makes sense to me that if we men were women we'd care more about the issue resulting in greater insight, b

2) And "many are offended by what we've heard about abortion", what you mean with that? "which terrible rumors".
Commenting on what I said earlier here are some of the slogans, but these are actually nice compared to some of the preaching and statements I've heard. Many people consider it absolute murder, and they don't trust politicians who are soft on the issue.

https://studentsforlife.org/good-pro-life-sign-slogans/
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Thanks for sharing all the quotes
First of all there are many pro life political slogans like "The right to control your body should not include the right to terminate someone else's!"
I agree with this...and if those claiming this are vegetarian I would take them more serious even
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Secondly there are religious claims ranging from the philosophical to the supernatural. "Satan's plan is to kill as many as possible!" and "God hates abortion!"
Of course people can claim all kind of things, but claims like this are "easy proven false". So they need not worry people who think for themselves, but of course I disagree with such voodoo like claims, and better to not allow them to be made (when people impose on others evil things, I rather fight against)
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Then there are the historical quote mines such as quotes of pro choice people talking about races. As recently as eighty years ago in my country there has been actual talk about neutering dark skinned americans
I would not be surprised if there are people who think that way...we had Hitler 80 years ago having similar thoughts I think
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think Roman Catholics teach and believe in maximum reproduction. It is a principle to fill the earth with good people. Possibly they will update this once they feel the earth is kind of filling up, but I don't know. This belief in maximal reproduction informs roman catholics, and it affects the recent decision of our Supreme Court which now has 6 catholic justices seated.
Protestants such as baptists tend to believe abortion is an evil. Some believe it is murder perpetuated by an intelligent evil.

I believe Catholics and Protestants both agree on the principle that sex is something sublime, because it is the union of two souls, not only of two bodies.
So first of all it is supposed to be an act of love, an act that has a meaning and that transcends mere lust or physical pleasure.

So, if two people fall in love and have sex out of love, they are supposed to produce life. But since intercourse produces human life, it is always better to prevent conception from taking place, if they are not ready to become parents.
Through contraception. Catholic priests will never tell this publicly, but I assure you that in private they say that it is always better to use contraceptive methods than having an abortion later.
Because by taking the hormonal pills, you kill nobody.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Religiously speaking, I think abortion is wrong.
Spiritually speaking, IMO, abortion is "not wrong" an sich

When done for example 1 hour before giving birth it becomes debatable IMO,
As well as when done 1 hour after giving birth (or in between of course)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
It is not the right choice.
I think that for some women it's the right choice
But I think it's great that you differ from opinion, and that you have that freedom
Hence, I think all women should have the freedom on this, as it is their body and their life and their choice
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think that for some women it's the right choice
But I think it's great that you differ from opinion, and that you have that freedom
Hence, I think all women should have the freedom on this, as it is their body and their life and their choice
Surely. :)
Since this thread is in "religious debates" I wanted to clarify what my religious views are.

They are very personal and they are different than what I think the secular State should do.
The secular State cannot let religions influence lawmaking. So if I am a lawmaker I cannot be influenced by my religious views, because I would be biased and not impartial.

That is what separation of church and State means.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
One of the problems with the abortion discussion, is women have been conned into believing that an abortion is a woman's right. Name me a male's right that only men share? Something does not add up.

A right is something that applies to all; human rights. A right is not a niche thing, that only some can enjoy. The right to own guns, applies to men and women, black and white, atheists and theists, etc. The right of free speech applies to all and not just one political party.

Things that do not apply to all, such as abortion, is an entitlement. The entitlement mentality brings us down a slippery slope, since every niche will want its own share of entitlements, to make it fair. Instead of equal rights for all, each niche will be given an edge over others so we all can cheat in our own special ways?

Rights are part of an advance culture. Entitlements are a throw back to the age of the monarchies, where the king and queen where entitled to chose life and death for others. This entitlement approach is regressive to Democracy, since monarchies do not care about anyone, who is not entitled.

The forming of the USA was a milestone in human history. It represented a transitional time, where the age of monarchies, from the start of civilization, were finally transcended, in favor of a new form of country where all people had equal rights, instead of only some people, having all the entitlements. It appears the Democrat party is attempting to regress back to the age of monarchies by bestowing entitlements on some, while limiting rights on others. This is a threat to Democracy, since free Democracies has no entitlements, but only rights that apply to all.

The time in US history, where monarchies sort of made a comeback, was connected to 1820's, Industrial Revolution and the rapid rise in slavery. If you were a slave, you had no rights and no entitlements, unless given by the owner. The owner was entitled to the fruit of the labor of their slaves. The slave owner was also entitled to have power over life and death, like a mini king and queen.

By 1860, the debate over slavery was heating up due to the rise of the mini monarchies; wealthy plantations and a new type of Aristocracy. The Democrat party became divided in terms of its attitude toward slavery. The Southern Democrat plantation owners in 1860's, owned most of the slaves and did not wish to upset their mini monarchies.

The northern Democrats were more anti-slavery since the industrial north was less dependent on slaves. The party became divided before the 1860 elections, with each side having their own candidate for president. This division allowed the Republican, Lincoln, to win. Thereafter, there were enough votes; Republican and Northern Democrat to free the slaves,

Southern Democrats did not agree and wanted to start a new country based on slavery; mini monarchy type of country. However, they were defeated in the Civil War, and the Union was made whole. But the Southern Democrats were not expelled but allowed to be part of the government. They vowed to rise again, which they did through the Legislative process. Their influence was the main source of systemic racism; restore the glory days of the mini monarchies, where whites were entitled to better everything. This power of entitlement appealed too many people, giving it traction.

The way they did this, is still done today. Bills, about one thing, often have extra things added, that have nothing to do with the original bill, like pork barrel and law changes. These are often political payback for their vote in other areas. The Southern Democrats played long ball, until a dual justice system was put into motion. This entitlement mentality allowed racism to remain for decades.

This monarchy mind set has entered the abortion issue, with women entitled to choose life or death, apart from any human rights that apply to all. This comes from the same mold, as post slavery racism, with the unborn at whims of the female plantation owner; her uterus, where lives.

It is important to know the difference between rights and entitlements if you believe in a Democracy or the regression back to monarchy control. Personally I am less worried about the plantation owners compare to the slaves ,,they lord over, who have no worth to them.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
One of the problems with the abortion discussion, is women have been conned into believing that an abortion is a woman's right. Name me a male's right that only men share? ....

I think that is a good point. I would like to know, those who think abortion is good, would it be good, if men would also have the right to abort the baby, if he hates the baby?

People can easily avoid to become pregnant, that is why I don't think abortion is necessary.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe Catholics and Protestants both agree on the principle that sex is something sublime, because it is the union of two souls, not only of two bodies.
So first of all it is supposed to be an act of love, an act that has a meaning and that transcends mere lust or physical pleasure.

So, if two people fall in love and have sex out of love, they are supposed to produce life. But since intercourse produces human life, it is always better to prevent conception from taking place, if they are not ready to become parents.
Through contraception. Catholic priests will never tell this publicly, but I assure you that in private they say that it is always better to use contraceptive methods than having an abortion later.
Because by taking the hormonal pills, you kill nobody.
I think it is the partnering of two people for the purpose of having good children. Many times married people stick together for the sake of their children even if their relationship is not working well. Friendship is wonderful, however; any two people can be great friends. I think there is a verse that says David and Jonathan share a love stronger that that of men and women, but don't quote me. David goes out of his way to help Jonathan's offspring. He is dedicated to Jonathan, yet it is doubtful they ever have had sex (since it is illegal for jewish men). They have had no sex yet are a combined unit. Their love does transcend sex.

I would console that catholic priest by explaining that the child is not yet inspired and is yet only clay. An unloved infant dies. This was proven in the horrible SS experiments. I also believe it is love that makes the baby complete after all of the sewing together of his or her body. A baby must be loved to live.

To be safe I would be in favor of a rule of limiting abortions to early gestation periods except under medically necessary conditions or a court order, so that we are not causing suffering or through negligence doing evil, but I think murder is impossible yet until the infant is born and is even then a grey area. I have reasons to think so.

They are vulnerable, beautiful; and killing them would be wrong; but they aren't complete. They are transitioning from a potential human to a human. They are being inspired, loved and created. For the first three months an infant does not even have the capacity to be a human mind though the breath of life flows through them. They are still turning into babies. Psychologically they do not have identities, yet. Spiritually they know nothing, yet. Still it would be entirely wrong to harm such a child at this point.
 
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