America isn't Christian

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I wonder what these historians thought about scriptures like Matthew 28:19-20: "19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” I'm not sure if Jesus actually said this or not, but it is attributed to him in the Book of Matthew.

Good question. They point out that the Trinitarian formula "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" did not exist in Jesus' day, meaning that this passage is a clear interpolation by later editors.

 

[mangalavara]

America isn't Christian,
and never was Christian.

In the sense that America is not officially Christian, I agree. Not one document such as the Constitution, for instance, establishes a ‘Church of America’ or states that Christianity is the official religion. America is a country with religious liberty, and I hope it remains that way.

Freemasons have created the USA,
the first president was a Freemason,
the seal of the USA is Masonic.

I think it is good that America was founded by men who were Freemasons. That is my opinion because Freemasonry is anti-tyranny and champions liberty.

 

[Jimmy]

The things Jesus said about himself were unusual.

The things he taught about God and how we should live were nothing new. He basically taught second Temple Judaism. Many of his most famous sayings were simply quotes of others, such as the Torah, or Hillel.

Jesus never intended some kind of worldwide religion. He never left Palestine. He never preached to a crowd of Gentiles. He said he came for the lost house of Israel (sinful Jews). Nothing about that is bad.

Interesting. I was unaware he didn’t have any ideas of his own on how to live.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting. I was unaware he didn’t have any ideas of his own on how to live.

People who have original ideas are few and far between. Most of the time people adopt the ideas of others or, at best, build on the ideas of others. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[1213]

I believe,

America isn't Christian,
...

I believe many Americans are Christians. And it is the reason why they have for example the first amendment.

 

[anotherneil]

That's right.

 

[RestlessSoul]

People who have original ideas are few and far between. Most of the time people adopt the ideas of others or, at best, build on the ideas of others. Nothing wrong with that.

People with nothing original to say don’t tend to leave a mark on history which continues to resonate 2,000 years after their passing

 

[IamYourYahaweh]

I believe,

America isn't Christian,
and never was Christian.

How America's history started:
People from Europe came,
have stolen land,
have committed genocide,
have kidnapped millions of black people,
to make them slaves in America.

Freemasons have created the USA,
the first president was a Freemason,
the seal of the USA is Masonic.

With lies,
America has invaded other countries.
With malice,
America has dropped nuclear bombs,
With cunning,
America has financed the second world war.

America created Hollywood,
and with Hollywood immorality,
and with Hollywood fornication,
and with Hollywood idolatry.

Americas's so called Christians,
are Evangelicals,
people who do not,
follow the Bible,
people who support a Trump,
people who are fanatical Zionists.

Relax bro, also don't generalize as if all of America fits anywhere

 

[IndigoChild5559]

People with nothing original to say don’t tend to leave a mark on history which continues to resonate 2,000 years after their passing

I think you are attributing a lot of things to Jesus that had nothing to do with Jesus. Christianity wouldn't even have become a new religion without Paul. It would never have come to dominate the West without Constantine. What I'm trying to say is that much of the "mark on history" that you are attributing to Jesus, really is due to the confluence of a great many factors and influence of many individuals. It's what you might call The Perfect Storm.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Forgiving, not judging, doing unto others…… and a few more is the core of Christianity which Jesus brought so I’d say that’s more than a part.

These may all be part of the ideals that you want Christianity to strive for, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating: Christianity is defined by the actual beliefs and practices of actual Christians... whether you approve of those beliefs and practices or not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People with nothing original to say don’t tend to leave a mark on history which continues to resonate 2,000 years after their passing

I'd say that Christianity's persistence has more to do with it being adopted as the state religion by nations across Europe for more than a millennium than anything about the originality of its ideas.

 

[Viker]

I agree that America isn't a Christian nation. Just like it's not a white nation even if it was officially founded by white men.

I call it an enlightenment nation because it is influenced mostly by enlightenment era and neoclassical philosophies. That's just my opinion.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe, America isn't Christian, and never was Christian. How America's history started: People from Europe came, have stolen land, have committed genocide, have kidnapped millions of black people, to make them slaves in America. With lies, America has invaded other countries. With malice, America has dropped nuclear bombs, With cunning, America has financed the second world war. America created Hollywood, and with Hollywood immorality, Americas's so called Christians, are Evangelicals ... who support a Trump, people who are fanatical Zionists.

I presume that you mean culturally. The American government was intended to be secular, but never has been.

You have a different definition of Christian than I do. The people you describe called Christ God and considered the Bible God's word. The believed in the virgin birth and resurrection. and they believe in an afterlife of heaven or hell.

I don't have a behavioral test for Christianity, just a doctrinal test. If one believes the above and calls himself a Christian, so do I. It doesn't matter that his religion hasn't prevented him or his neighbors from being genocidal, stealing land, or nuking others. That's apparently what many Christians are like if you use the criteria that I do.

And they live guilt-free and sure of their salvation, because the god of Abraham is just as genocidal and imperial as they are, and they understand that their prayers absolve them from accountability for any immoral act as long as they preach Christ and Christian doctrine.

The believer tries to whitewash his religion and marginalize the failed people who call themselves Christians, but for the outsider, it's the entire spectrum of types of people who are alumni of this system of people building that define what the religion is and generates. You might say that the American Christian theocrats in America defiling the Constitution and its separation clause aren't true Christians because they are killing women, but Christianity doesn't get any more real than that.

“Jesus’” teachings were new and unlike anything the world ever seen and he intended his teachings for all humankind.

Jesus offered no original moral precepts worth remembering. Love one another wasn't original, but loving enemies, which is terrible advice, may well have been.

Forgiving, not judging

Yet it's the judging that characterizes organized, politicized, Abrahamic religion, both Christian and Muslim. I hope that you aren't expecting others to not notice all of that or not connect it with these religions.

I believe many Americans are Christians. And it is the reason why they have for example the first amendment.

The First Amendment was a humanist contribution. Christian scripture forbids blasphemy and worshiping gods other than the god of Abraham. Christian Dominionists intend to make America an Old Testament style theocracy. This is Christianity, too:

• "Whenever the civil government forbids the practice of things that God has commanded us to do, or tells us to do things He has commanded us not to do, then we are on solid ground in disobeying the government and rebelling against it." - Pat Robertson
• "The strategy against the American radical left should be the same as General Douglas MacArthur employed against the Japanese in the Pacific . . . blast the individuals out of their power bunkers with hand-to-hand combat. The battle to regain the soul of America won't be pleasant, but we will win it." - Pat Robertson
• "The inability or unwillingness to hate makes a person worthless. If we do not hate detestable things, the quality of our character is suspect. The Bible commands that we hate." - H. A. (Buster) Dobbs
• "I believe this notion of the separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel's imagination." - Rev. W. A. Criswell (Dallas, 1984)
• "I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - President George H. W. Bush
• "We need to do more than win an election or win the House or win the presidency, my friends: we need to make this beloved country of ours God's country once again." - Pat Buchanan at the Christian Coalition 1995 Road to Victory Conference, as reported in the October 1995 issue of Church and State.
• "There is a value in spiritual violence," Hagee declared, "and it is time that you considered the role that you are playing or not playing and whether or not it's time for you to become more aggressive in your beliefs" - Matthew Hagee
• "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good . . . our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism" - Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue
• "The long term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to his Church's public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North
• "Why stoning? There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost...executions are community projects--not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his' duty, but rather with actual participants...That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christian." - Christian Dominionist Gary North bemoaning the influence that humanism has had
• "I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be." - Jerry Falwell
• "There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world." - Pat Robertson
• "Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies." - Randall Terry
• "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity." - Ann Coulter

People with nothing original to say don’t tend to leave a mark on history which continues to resonate 2,000 years after their passing

Most people with nothing original to say don't have the armies of Roman emperors, crusaders, conquistadores and other violent imperialists, or inquisitors to spread and enforce their ideas. Without that, you'd have never heard of Christianity or Jesus.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Good question. They point out that the Trinitarian formula "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" did not exist in Jesus' day, meaning that this passage is a clear interpolation by later editors.

In my opinion, the stories about Jesus in the Bible were either based on hearsay and greatly embellished for effect or they were copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions known to his devout followers at the time. I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll include links to my previous posts where I explain why I believe this is true. Of course, what I wrote is simply my personal opinion, and I understand that others may disagree.

Post 1: Why Don’t You Believe Jesus Rose From The Grave?

Post 2: There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe,

America isn't Christian,
and never was Christian.

And constitutionally, you'ld be correct.

How America's history started:
People from Europe came,
have stolen land,
have committed genocide,
have kidnapped millions of black people,
to make them slaves in America.

Freemasons have created the USA,
the first president was a Freemason,
the seal of the USA is Masonic.

With lies,
America has invaded other countries.
With malice,
America has dropped nuclear bombs,
With cunning,
America has financed the second world war.

America created Hollywood,
and with Hollywood immorality,
and with Hollywood fornication,
and with Hollywood idolatry.

Americas's so called Christians,
are Evangelicals,
people who do not,
follow the Bible,
people who support a Trump,
people who are fanatical Zionists.

But off course, you'ld be correct for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Madsaac]

I believe,

America isn't Christian,
and never was Christian.

How America's history started:
People from Europe came,
have stolen land,
have committed genocide,
have kidnapped millions of black people,
to make them slaves in America.

Freemasons have created the USA,
the first president was a Freemason,
the seal of the USA is Masonic.

With lies,
America has invaded other countries.
With malice,
America has dropped nuclear bombs,
With cunning,
America has financed the second world war.

America created Hollywood,
and with Hollywood immorality,
and with Hollywood fornication,
and with Hollywood idolatry.

Americas's so called Christians,
are Evangelicals,
people who do not,
follow the Bible,
people who support a Trump,
people who are fanatical Zionists.

Yes it is, it’s the biggest religion in the country
And don’t they swear on the bible in court.
And isn’t god (Supposedly a Christian) referred to in the national anthem.
Probably more examples like this but I don’t live there.

 

[anotherneil]

Yes it is, it’s the biggest religion in the country

It may be the biggest religion in the country, but that has nothing to do with making the entire country a part of that religion as a whole.

I'm an American (US citizen) and I'm not religious; no one is throwing me in prison or executing me for not being religious.

And don’t they swear on the bible in court.

It has and probably still does happen in court sometimes, but with separation church and state (1st clause of the 1st Amendment), they're not supposed to be doing that. We still also see this happening when politicians are sworn into office, but it might be considered an infringement on their freedom of religion (2nd clause of the 1st Amendment) if they're told that they're not allowed to put their left hand on their religious book, while their spouse, son, daughter, or other family member is standing there holding it for them with a smile on their face.

And isn’t god (Supposedly a Christian) referred to in the national anthem.

I think you mean the Pledge of Allegiance, so yes, and that's not supposed to be there, either; it wasn't originally in the national anthem. The words "under God" were added to it in the middle of the 20th century; I guess religious zealotry reached a fever pitch during that time.

Probably more examples like this but I don’t live there.

I can think of another - "In God We Trust", but this is not from Christianity; it's from Islam. It seems that by your logic, the US is an Islamic nation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And constitutionally, you'ld be correct.

The problem here is that he didn't say "American Government," he said "America." America is far more than our government. It's the people who live here. It's our cultural values, like "we don't eat pets." It's how we like pizza, how we BBQ on the 4th of July, or talk more loudly than other nations, or have our three year olds help pick out their clothing rather than decide for them.

Culturally, America very much is Christian. As of 2022, 63% of American still identify as Christian. Most of those who are NOT Christian, are still very much influenced by Christian ethics and practices. For example, Christmas is a national holiday, celebrated by almost everyone regardless of religion (or non-religion). Our pledge of allegiance still includes the words, "Under God." I could go on.

I say this as a Jew -- I have no agenda to help Christians win some sort of cultural war. And I'm far from the only honest person to acknowledge this. Here are some American citizens who are atheist who fully acknowledge the sway of Christianity in our American culture, using ChatGPT to summarize:

Christopher Hitchens
Although born in England, Hitchens became a U.S. citizen and engaged extensively with American culture and politics. He acknowledged Christianity's role in shaping American history and values, even as he criticized its doctrines. In debates, he often recognized that the U.S. has a uniquely Christian cultural framework compared to other Western nations.

Sam Harris
Harris has written and spoken about how Christianity has deeply influenced American society, particularly in moral and political arenas. While he critiques religious influence, he recognizes that Christian culture has historically shaped the nation's identity.

Bill Maher
The comedian and outspoken atheist often critiques religion in his commentary but acknowledges the dominance of Christian culture in shaping American traditions and holidays.

Michael Shermer
The science writer and founder of the Skeptic Society has acknowledged the Christian roots of American culture in discussions about religion and morality. He often frames the U.S. as a society heavily influenced by Christian ethics, even as secularism grows.

James Lindsay
An atheist author and critic of religious and postmodern ideologies, Lindsay has frequently remarked on Christianity’s cultural and historical role in America. While critical of religion, he recognizes that Christian values have influenced the legal and societal framework of the U.S.