American Authoritarianism

[Laika]

Hey everyone,

Whilst the US election campign is on going, I think it is fair to say that there is a consensus on the forum that America's drift to Authoritarianism is a bad thing. This is something that transcends the two party system and should make people think about the sort of country they want to live in.

Face it: both Trump and Clinton will not curtail the powers of the executive or work to overturn legislation which undermines Americans civil liberties. Whether Trumps Muslim immigration ban and demands for surviallance of Mosques or Clintons hawkish foreign policy credentials, the two party system has failed to address this issue.

The task of recovering the freedoms that were lost after 9/11 under Bush and the policies that largely continued under Obama means that this is not an issue that can be solved in a single election. It will have to be a generational struggle to reverse the trend towards an American dictatorship.

The United States engages in mass surviallance:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

It has/had concentration camps (lets just call them what they are) around the world at CIA black sites and guantanamo bay for terrorist suspects to prevent them from having access to due process of law:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

It has curtailed civil liberties:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act

It uses drone strikes which not only kill "militants" but also inflict civillian causalties:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_US_drone_strikes

It has the worlds largest prison population of 9.8 million prisoners and uses forced labour:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complex
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Growth

The police have become heavily militarised by buying US military-surplus:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police

Whether you think one party is more responsible than the other- the second party still enabled the other, whether by action or inaction, to get America into this mess. American leadership sets the standard for everywhere else and the exercise of US foreign policy and military power means this is not just an American problem but a global problem.

Should freedom, democracy and the american way of life be reduced to rhetoric or should it mean something more than just fine speeches?

 

[Sunstone]

The task of recovering the freedoms that were lost after 9/11 under Bush and the policies that largely continued under Obama means that this is not an issue that can be solved in a single election. It will have to be a generational struggle to reverse the trend towards an American dictatorship.

Every generation faces a struggle between liberty and oppression. Bush and Cheney seized on 9/11 to swing things further towards oppression. Obama did too little to correct his predecessor's excesses, although he did make some corrections. So the struggle goes on. But it would go on anyway, even without 9/11 and Bush and Cheney, in my opinion, because the struggle is as old as civilization itself, and is firmly rooted in the very nature of hierarchical societies.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I find one of the issues with political discourse is that we talk of freedom as if it is something we have attained or can be attained.
This is untrue on all bases.
Freedom has always been an ongoing struggle.

Privilege, or the lack thereof, is what many take for freedom, imo.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Rowan;

I find one of the issues with political discourse is that we talk of freedom as if it is something we have attained or can be attained.
This is untrue on all bases.Freedom has always been an ongoing struggle.

Hmm - the real problem is itself "political discourse" which is ACTUALLY a game of who can tell the best B-S and deliver the most scathing criticism of their oponant, and not open or truthful discourse or even often times not even "pollitical" much at all - when all THAT stops then perhaps there can be real progress - whist they all continue to lie to each other AND TO US - and whilst we all ALLOW them to behave that way unchallenged then there is not much hope for us at all..

Freedom - is a personal choice Folks -always has been... It can be attained - EASILY - Iam the living proof - totally free

 

[Laika]

Hi Folks..

Rowan;

Hmm - the real problem is itself "political discourse" which is ACTUALLY a game of who can tell the best B-S and deliver the most scathing criticism of their oponant, and not open or truthful discourse or even often times not even "pollitical" much at all - when all THAT stops then perhaps there can be real progress - whist they all continue to lie to each other AND TO US - and whilst we all ALLOW them to behave that way unchallenged then there is not much hope for us at all..

Freedom - is a personal choice Folks -always has been... It can be attained - EASILY - Iam the living proof - totally free

Given the amount of struggle it took to get a working system, I'm going to disagree with the sentiment "freedom can be easily attained". It is not merely a matter of changing the political discourse, but also the legal and political relations which govern us. Thats often a really ugly process.

 

[Rival]

Freedom is overrated. If humans really wanted freedom they wouldn't elect governments to begin with, or religions or hierarchies. But we all do. The Darwinian psychology is alive and well.

 

[Parchment]

Whilst the US election campaign is on going, I think it is fair to say that there is a consensus on the forum that America's drift to Authoritarianism is a bad thing.

I'd also think it is fair to say that according to various media sites numerous socks and trolls then X should be Y, not a very scientific method in my view.

 

[Laika]

I'd also think it is fair to say that according to various media sites numerous socks and trolls then X should be Y, not a very scientific method in my view.

You're non-answer is appreciated.

Freedom is overrated. If humans really wanted freedom they wouldn't elect governments to begin with, or religions or hierarchies. But we all do. The Darwinian psychology is alive and well.

It sounds sexy when you say that but even BDSM requires mutual consent. Bondage and domination should really be kept in the bedroom and not as a basis for a system of government.

 

[Rival]

You're non-answer is appreciated.



It sounds sexy when you say that but even BDSM requires mutual consent. Bondage and domination should really be kept in the bedroom and not as a basis for a system of government.

Bondage and domination has been the way of the world since forever! One Empire after another!

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey everyone,

Whilst the US election campign is on going, I think it is fair to say that there is a consensus on the forum that America's drift to Authoritarianism is a bad thing. This is something that transcends the two party system and should make people think about the sort of country they want to live in.

Face it: both Trump and Clinton will not curtail the powers of the executive or work to overturn legislation which undermines Americans civil liberties. Whether Trumps Muslim immigration ban and demands for surviallance of Mosques or Clintons hawkish foreign policy credentials, the two party system has failed to address this issue.

The task of recovering the freedoms that were lost after 9/11 under Bush and the policies that largely continued under Obama means that this is not an issue that can be solved in a single election. It will have to be a generational struggle to reverse the trend towards an American dictatorship.

The United States engages in mass surviallance:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

It has/had concentration camps (lets just call them what they are) around the world at CIA black sites and guantanamo bay for terrorist suspects to prevent them from having access to due process of law:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

It has curtailed civil liberties:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act

It uses drone strikes which not only kill "militants" but also inflict civillian causalties:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_US_drone_strikes

It has the worlds largest prison population of 9.8 million prisoners and uses forced labour:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complex
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Growth

The police have become heavily militarised by buying US military-surplus:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police

Whether you think one party is more responsible than the other- the second party still enabled the other, whether by action or inaction, to get America into this mess. American leadership sets the standard for everywhere else and the exercise of US foreign policy and military power means this is not just an American problem but a global problem.

Should freedom, democracy and the american way of life be reduced to rhetoric or should it mean something more than just fine speeches?

Freedom has long been under threat.
Ignore those pesky partisans proclaiming a particular party or president is to blame.
Younger folk remember 9/11 & the Patriot Act, but those were just recent icing on the cake.
I remember Nixon & Clinton both doing their best to remove constitutional civil liberties, eg,
economic freedom (Nixon), right to jury trials (Clinton). Say on guard, my friend.

 

[Parchment]

Let's see what Adol- I mean Trump has to say about that once he's elected
Don't bother saying Godwin's law It's a joke.

You saw what happened to Merkel at the hands of the Greek tomfoolers right?

When she didn't sign an open cheque for a failed welfare state twice or three times? It seemed like they wanted a credit card with no repercussions or responsibility, like a teenager with a bank account that has been overdrawn multiple times- do you trust them in the future and do you give them more cheques?
The general public seem to despise her and her globalist policies in 2016

 

[Laika]

Bondage and domination has been the way of the world since forever! One Empire after another!

Only now we have the freedom to say it's fun and do it in bed.

 

[Laika]

Freedom has long been under threat.
Younger folk remember 9/11 & the Patriot Act, but those were just recent icing on the cake.
I remember Nixon & Clinton both doing their best to remove constitutional civil liberties, eg,
economic freedom (Nixon), right to jury trials (Clinton). Say on guard, my friend.

But the technological capabilities of would be dictators in 2016 would have been unimaginable to even someone as cynical as Richard M. Nixon. The sort of dictatorship we could have today with levels of surveillance to detect dissent or to publicly control thought through propaganda would dwarf the totalitarian ambitions of the 1930's.

 

[Rival]

You saw what happened to Merkel at the hands of the Greek tomfoolers right?

When she didn't sign an open cheque for a failed welfare state twice or three times? It seemed like they wanted a credit card with no repercussions or responsibility, like a teenager with a bank account that has been overdrawn multiple times- do you trust them in the future and do you give them more cheques?
The general public seem to despise her and her globalist policies in 2016

And why does any of this make her a National Socialist? Seriously this is getting boring.

 

[Parchment]

And why does any of this make her a National Socialist?

Exactly

 

[Revoltingest]

But the technological capabilities of would be dictators in 2016 would have been unimaginable to even someone as cynical as Richard M. Nixon. The sort of dictatorship we could have today with levels of surveillance to detect dissent or to publicly control thought through propaganda would dwarf the totalitarian ambitions of the 1930's.

Technology certainly offers them potential to oppress.
But it's just one of the tools of their trade.
And it's one which can also work for us, eg, recording cops' illegalities.

One thing I dread is government's attempts to eliminate non-electronic money.
They want this so that all can be monitored.

 

[Rival]

Exactly

I think you're confused.

 

[Parchment]

I think you're confused.

How so? be specific.

 

[Laika]

Technology certainly offers them potential to oppress.
But it's just one of the tools of their trade.
And it's one which can also work for us, eg, recording cops' illegalities.

One thing I dread is government's attempts to eliminate non-electronic money.
They want this so that all can be monitored.

Can we agree that preventing an American dictatorship is better than trying to cure it?

 

[Rival]

Can we agree that preventing an American dictatorship is better than trying to cure it?

no