American church trying to establish its own police force

[Curious George]

Alabama Code Title 16. Education. § 16-22-1 | FindLaw

 

[Father Heathen]

Sooo.... Christian version of Sharia?

 

[icehorse]

I'm simultaneously aghast and tickled.

(I would however love to do some OTB on how this would work out.)

Wait! I know! Let's build a wall around the town and then let them go at it!

 

[Deathbydefault]

A church in the city of Vestavia Hills, Alabama, has launched a bid to establish its own private police force. While some lawmakers believe this will start a slippery slope; and that churches which are already exempt from taxation should not be allowed to interfere any further in governance. Still, others (Republicans, unsurprisingly) are willing to consider it.

In my opinion this sounds like yet another step in violation of the First Amendment. Religious police?

The saddest part is, I have to wonder whether or not this will be allowed.

Might as well scrap our constitution and replace it with something else, for all they care.
Not like these people even read the thing, let alone adhere to it.
When it's on their side, they never shut up about it.
When it's against them, they're happy to stand in front of it and act like there's nothing there.

 

[Curious George]

I am not a fan of police in high school for reasons other than emergencies or soft touch. But, it strikes me that to say private institutions a,b, and c can do this and d cannot because do is religious is a little bit down the road of unequal protection. Ultimately, the police power is a state power. If the state recognizes the need for institution x to have and fund a police force (or officer) then as long as that police officer is held to the same standards and hired by secular means then I don't know on what grounds I should complain. Is this a potential can of worms? Yes. Is there room for abuse? Yes. Should we proceed cautiously in these situations? Yes. But in reality, we give our stamp of approval for a super religious university to have a police force, why not a church if the people of the community and state feel the need?

I would feel the same if a corporation complex did this as well. If the question is whether or not there is a better way to achieve the same goals, I imagine the answer is yes. But isn't that true of university police as well?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am not a fan of police in high school for reasons other than emergencies or soft touch. But, it strikes me that to say private institutions a,b, and c can do this and d cannot because do is religious is a little bit down the road of unequal protection. Ultimately, the police power is a state power. If the state recognizes the need for institution x to have and fund a police force (or officer) then as long as that police officer is held to the same standards and hired by secular means then I don't know on what grounds I should complain. Is this a potential can of worms? Yes. Is there room for abuse? Yes. Should we proceed cautiously in these situations? Yes. But in reality, we give our stamp of approval for a super religious university to have a police force, why not a church if the people of the community and state feel the need?

I would feel the same if a corporation complex did this as well. If the question is whether or not there is a better way to achieve the same goals, I imagine the answer is yes. But isn't that true of university police as well?

Maybe I misunderstand your meaning. They will be hired by the church, not by secular means. That is in the bill. (Thank you for posting a link.)

 

[YmirGF]

Who ya gonna call? God Squad! Call-1-888-GODSQUAD now if some atheist dog is trying to interfere with you doing God's work!




What, could possibly go wrong with an idea like this? *cringes*

 

[Jeremiahcp]

And yet we are deporting immigrants. . . . . seems like there is a missed opportunity here. . . .

 

[buddhist]

I don't see a date on the article, but I seem to remember seeing/reading/hearing about this quite a while back.

No corporate body has police; they have security units, some of them larger and better equipped and trained that the local police. Hell, the security in some gated communities puts government law enforcement to shame in those regards. They can detain people, conduct investigations, patrol the premises, etc.

Now then, what happens if there is a conflict, a disagreement, between the church's "police" and the local police or state police?

Will they be authorized to use deadly force? Will they have the power to detain people who are not on the church's campus? Who is handling the prosecution of those arrested by the church police?

I see lots of unanswered questions, and potential problems, with a real private "police" force.

If the church's corporate land is a parcel of a larger corporation's corporate land (e.g. a municipality), it would stand that the church's private laws must comply with the private laws of its larger corporate parent's. Anyone who steps onto their private land and enters into their jurisdiction must obey their private laws.

 

[buddhist]

And that's what worries me. A parallel law enforcement body implies enforcement of a parallel legal system. What laws would they be enforcing? Can they do it adequately or professionally? Where does the jurisdiction of this body begin or end? How long will it be before they start arresting people who aren't members of the congregation; or are but commit their 'crimes' outside of church property?

They would enforce their own corporate ("church") rules/laws. The jurisdiction of the church's police force would end at the boundary of their property.

It's the exact same way with a "municipality". They are corporations too, with internal corporate rules/laws, possessing private land. Their police force's jurisdiction ends at the boundary of their corporate property.

The Sheriff is the true Public peace officer representing the Republic in his county, and not representing a private corporate entity. Haven't you ever wondered why there are both Sheriffs and police departments in seemingly overlapping areas? Police (private) and peace officers (Public) serve two different purposes.

 

[Augustus]

I'm curious what sort of crimes this congregation is experiencing that convinces them they need police powers to deal with the crimes?

I imagine one of their congregation has been coveting their neighbours ox or making graven images. Behaviour like that is best nipped in the bud otherwise the whole community might be in for a jolly good smiting.

Common sense policy imo.

 

[YmirGF]

I imagine one of their congregation has been coveting their neighbours ox or making graven images. Behaviour like that is best nipped in the bud otherwise the whole community might be in for a jolly good smiting.

Common sense policy imo.

What bounces off my brain is why would they not simply petition the local government to provide more police patrols in their area? What I'm thinking is setting up a police force is a fairly expensive undertaking. It sounds like a parish with way too much money on its hands and no creative intelligence on how to spend it effectively.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

What bounces off my brain is why would they not simply petition the local government to provide more police patrols in their area? What I'm thinking is setting up a police force is a fairly expensive undertaking. It sounds like a parish with way too much money on its hands and no creative intelligence on how to spend it effectively.

Ya, good luck with that, if you're not dunkin donuts. I would be security at my temple during events, and cops even alerted to bomb threats are unlikely to get out of their squads to actually CHECK perimeters or bushes near the buildings for IEDs. In these times when soft targets are increasingly at risk, I see no problem with extra muscle.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

In England Church Wardens are empowers to detain certain troublemakers on church property and take them before a magistrate .

Powers Wiki
In England, churchwardens have specific powers to enable them to keep the peace in churchyards. The following are punishable with a £200 fine:[1]

• riotous, violent, or indecent behaviour in any cathedral church, parish, or district church or chapel of the Church of England or in any churchyard or burial ground (whether during a service or at any other time)
• molesting, disturbing, vexing, or troubling, or by any other unlawful means disquieting or misusing:
  • any preacher duly authorized to preach therein, or
  • any clergyman in holy orders ministering or celebrating any sacrament, or any divine service, rite, or office, in any cathedral, church, or chapel, or in any churchyard or burial ground.

The churchwarden of the parish or place where the offence was committed may apprehend a person committing such an offence, and take them before a magistrates' court.[1] Until 2003, the offence was punishable by two months' imprisonment.[1]

 

[Revoltingest]

If the church's corporate land is a parcel of a larger corporation's corporate land (e.g. a municipality), it would stand that the church's private laws must comply with the private laws of its larger corporate parent's. Anyone who steps onto their private land and enters into their jurisdiction must obey their private laws.

Could be....provided that their private laws comport with governmental ones.
If so, this amounts to naught.
This thing is putting my brain's outrage lobe to sleep.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This totally doesn't make it obvious that they have some twisted, perverse, cult-like stuff going on inside. Not in the slightest.

 

[oldbadger]

A church in the city of Vestavia Hills, Alabama, has launched a bid to establish its own private police force. ................ ....................................
In my opinion this sounds like yet another step in violation of the First Amendment. Religious police?

Your thoughts?

Oh, and here's a link to the story.

No need to panic!
They often hire officers to keep order at thousands of events, and like colleges they would like a full time cop. ONE COP!

Here's more detail..... I do hope that you weren't too much worried about all this .
Some critics of the bill have questioned why the church and school need a police department, but it's essentially a way of hiring a police officer full-time, as opposed to relying on off-duty police officers to assist the church, Johnston said.

"We've got over 30,000 events a year that take place at Briarwood - going on all day, all night, at the school, at the church, at the seminary," Johnston said. "We have to hire policemen all the time. It would be so much easier to have someone on staff."

Johnston said he doesn't know of any other churches in Alabama that have their own police departments, but he said it's more similar to a small college having its own police department. "Briarwood is larger than most of the colleges that have police," he said.


You worrier, you!