America's view on Islam

[Judgement Day]

another outstanding post!!!! (***Nehustan sits and watches***)

*Judgement Day sits and watches right next to Nehustan*

 

[lilithu]

*Judgement Day sits and watches right next to Nehustan*

I honestly hope that you two will be disappointed. I hate arguments even tho I seem to engage in a lot of them.

 

[Peace]

Islam and Muslims are our new current favorite whipping-boy. In watching the late night talk shows, I see that comedians think it ok to make fun of Muslims in ways in which they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups. And even liberals feel it alright to make gross overgeneralizations about Muslims that they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups (except conservatives of course).

People keep saying, "If there really are moderate Muslims, then why aren't they doing something? Why aren't they more vocal?"

There are moderate and liberal Muslims, and some of them are very vocal. A lot of them are not. Why not? Why don't most of us act in the face of injustice? Most of us do not. Why didn't the vast majority of German citizens rise up against Hitler? I don't believe it's because there was something particularly wrong with Germans. Some of the more angry Europeans are asking Americans why we don't rise up against Bush when we know that what he's doing is wrong. Yeah, we know. And aside from a few protests and emails I don't do much about it. Why am I not chaining myself to the gate of the White House when I know that my country is torturing people and killing others? I don't know. History will condemn us and I dont blame it. But I know that I won't be so quick to condemn others for not acting. It's so easy to condemn others when you're not the one who has to put your own butt on the line.

Another related question that I hear is "If there really are moderate Muslims, then how come all the Muslims that I see are radicals?"

:banghead3
Maybe because the media only shows you the ones who are radicals.
Maybe because radicals tend to be more vocal and visible than moderates.
Maybe because there are moderate Muslims all around you and yet you don't see them. The people who go out of their way to identify themselves as Muslim are the ones who feel the most strongly about it. That doesn't mean that all of them are extremists, but certainly on average they would be more extremist than the ones who don't make a point of identifying themselves. (Just as is the case for other religions.) And the moderates are probably afraid to identify themselves.

Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim. If they were all radicals who like to blow things up and kill people, there would be a helluva lot more violence than there is. There are more Muslims in Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia and Malaysia than there are in the Middle East. There is a huge Chinese Muslim population (Arab is one of China's five national languages). America being the immigrant country that it is, you've probably come into contact with Muslims and not even recognized that they were Muslims, because they don't fit our sterotype. Just peaceful people going about their lives, and then we have the nerve to ask how come all the Muslims we see are "violent" etc. It would be embarassing if it weren't so damn awful.

Great post lilithu :clap
Peace

 

[Peace]

How many Muslims do you know Paul? I mean really know? Not just what you see on tv. How many have you had dinner with? Spoken to about their experiences? Listened to what it's like for them to live in the West post 9/11?

I've seen you draw the distinction between "Westernized Islam" and "third world Islam" before. That to my ears sounds like "Islam that is closer to my way of thinking is ok but Islam that is more different than my way of thinking is not ok." What to you constitutes a "third world" country? Or a "backwards" country?

And what makes you think that Islam is the cause of this "backwardness"? There was a time when the West was still mired in the "Dark Ages" when Islamic scholars rescued Aristotle from oblivion, translating him from Greek to Arabic. When Western scholars rediscovered Aristotle, it was from the Arabic translations. Islamic scientists and doctors made huge contributions to science and medicine, mathematics and metaphysics. Islamic philosphers such as Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes) greatly influenced later Western thinkers. Then the West did this thing called the Crusades. And then carved up the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

Yes, I would agree that the countries in which Islam is growing by leaps and bounds (it is btw the fastest growing religion in the world) tend to be poorer. But I highly doubt that anyone can prove that Islam is the cause of their poverty. My first guess would be the lingering effects of Western imperialism. And my guess as to one reason why Islam is growing so much in these countries is because Islam appeals to the disenfranchised more than other religions do. I'm sure it also doesn't hurt that Islam is seen as opposed to Western imperialism.

Yes, there is a higher correlation between Islam and violence these days than with other religions. But to say that Islam is the cause of the violence would be the equivalent of pointing to the higher correlation between blacks and violent crime in the U.S. and drawing a similar conclusion. Very few of us would do the latter; yet we think it's ok to do the former. There are other causes for the violence - poverty, despair, and anger.

May Allah bless you!!!!

Peace

 

[TashaN]

Islam and Muslims are our new current favorite whipping-boy. In watching the late night talk shows, I see that comedians think it ok to make fun of Muslims in ways in which they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups. And even liberals feel it alright to make gross overgeneralizations about Muslims that they wouldn't dare do with other identity groups (except conservatives of course).

People keep saying, "If there really are moderate Muslims, then why aren't they doing something? Why aren't they more vocal?"

There are moderate and liberal Muslims, and some of them are very vocal. A lot of them are not. Why not? Why don't most of us act in the face of injustice? Most of us do not. Why didn't the vast majority of German citizens rise up against Hitler? I don't believe it's because there was something particularly wrong with Germans. Some of the more angry Europeans are asking Americans why we don't rise up against Bush when we know that what he's doing is wrong. Yeah, we know. And aside from a few protests and emails I don't do much about it. Why am I not chaining myself to the gate of the White House when I know that my country is torturing people and killing others? I don't know. History will condemn us and I dont blame it. But I know that I won't be so quick to condemn others for not acting. It's so easy to condemn others when you're not the one who has to put your own butt on the line.

Another related question that I hear is "If there really are moderate Muslims, then how come all the Muslims that I see are radicals?"

:banghead3
Maybe because the media only shows you the ones who are radicals.
Maybe because radicals tend to be more vocal and visible than moderates.
Maybe because there are moderate Muslims all around you and yet you don't see them. The people who go out of their way to identify themselves as Muslim are the ones who feel the most strongly about it. That doesn't mean that all of them are extremists, but certainly on average they would be more extremist than the ones who don't make a point of identifying themselves. (Just as is the case for other religions.) And the moderates are probably afraid to identify themselves.

Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim. If they were all radicals who like to blow things up and kill people, there would be a helluva lot more violence than there is. There are more Muslims in Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia and Malaysia than there are in the Middle East. There is a huge Chinese Muslim population (Arab is one of China's five national languages). America being the immigrant country that it is, you've probably come into contact with Muslims and not even recognized that they were Muslims, because they don't fit our sterotype. Just peaceful people going about their lives, and then we have the nerve to ask how come all the Muslims we see are "violent" etc. It would be embarassing if it weren't so damn awful.

How many Muslims do you know Paul? I mean really know? Not just what you see on tv. How many have you had dinner with? Spoken to about their experiences? Listened to what it's like for them to live in the West post 9/11?

I've seen you draw the distinction between "Westernized Islam" and "third world Islam" before. That to my ears sounds like "Islam that is closer to my way of thinking is ok but Islam that is more different than my way of thinking is not ok." What to you constitutes a "third world" country? Or a "backwards" country?

And what makes you think that Islam is the cause of this "backwardness"? There was a time when the West was still mired in the "Dark Ages" when Islamic scholars rescued Aristotle from oblivion, translating him from Greek to Arabic. When Western scholars rediscovered Aristotle, it was from the Arabic translations. Islamic scientists and doctors made huge contributions to science and medicine, mathematics and metaphysics. Islamic philosphers such as Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes) greatly influenced later Western thinkers. Then the West did this thing called the Crusades. And then carved up the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

Yes, I would agree that the countries in which Islam is growing by leaps and bounds (it is btw the fastest growing religion in the world) tend to be poorer. But I highly doubt that anyone can prove that Islam is the cause of their poverty. My first guess would be the lingering effects of Western imperialism. And my guess as to one reason why Islam is growing so much in these countries is because Islam appeals to the disenfranchised more than other religions do. I'm sure it also doesn't hurt that Islam is seen as opposed to Western imperialism.

Yes, there is a higher correlation between Islam and violence these days than with other religions. But to say that Islam is the cause of the violence would be the equivalent of pointing to the higher correlation between blacks and violent crime in the U.S. and drawing a similar conclusion. Very few of us would do the latter; yet we think it's ok to do the former. There are other causes for the violence - poverty, despair, and anger.

:clap

 

[lilithu]

Please point out where I said it was the cause. It's ok, I'll wait. You read, assumed and ran past "go" without looking back. *hands Lilithu her $200.00*

I said: "Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim."

To which you said in direct response: "You fail to point out that Muslims also dominate some of the most backward nations on the face of the earth. I think that is rather telling."

Now how is someone reasonably supposed to take that? What was your point if it wasn't to imply causality? If Islam is not the cause, then why are you criticizing Islam and not the real cause?

I am simply saying that it is not helping them all that much. I am also saying that Islam has a terrible image problem that they seem unwilling to or unable to shake. Silencing their radical elements with the fervor that they protest cartoons, might be a step in the right direction.

Again, why are moderates IN those countries afraid to stand up and be counted? Riddle me that. If the radical elements in Islam have hijacked their faith and soiled the reputation of Islam, why do the moderates allow it? Are they powerless to change it?

You mentioned the poor image/marketing problem in the last post too and I just couldn't deal with it.

From your last post: "The fault with Islam is that it has done an exceedingly poor job of marketing itself. If I saw Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community, I assure you I would notice rather quickly. Sadly, I do not. I don't see them doing anything, in fact as they do blend rather nicely in with the scenery. That is the point. Lilithu, if my group were under attack and I felt our reputation was being unfairly malainged, I would go out of my way to prove otherwise. Get it? I could not just sit on my hands and do nothing, praying for a resoultion from an external source."

Is religion a product to be marketed, Paul? What are you, an ad exec? Are we just so ingrained in the capitalist mindset that everything is framed in that way? Who exactly are the "ad execs" in this case who have control over how the "product" is "marketed"? And what makes you think that we are the "consumers" to which the "product" needs to be sold? What makes us so arrogant as to think that someone else's culture and faith needs to be "marketed" to us so that we'll accept it? Oh yeah, that's right, it's because when we don't like something we go and drop bombs on it, so everyone had better prove to us that they're worthy of existence.

As for your comments about Muslims in the U.S., how many Americans of any stripe perform "wonderful, selfless acts" in their community, Paul? How many? I do see some "Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community." That's because I work with them through my church and in that context I know that they are Muslim. Believe it or not, they do not hang neon signs around their necks saying "Look everyone! I'm a Muslim and I'm performing a wonderful, selfless act!" And I also know other Muslims who are just as self-absorbed as the rest of us are. And why should Muslims be held to a higher standard than any other group?

As for your comments about Muslims in other countries that are in turmoil, what exactly do you expect them to do? After every wave of violence I have heard calls from moderate Muslims for peace, denouncing the violence. But apparently this is insufficient for you. So what? Are they supposed to wade into the rioting and physically try to stop it? Would you do that? I'll say right up front that I would not. Honestly, I really don't see how you can ask these questions - how you can hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of some Muslims? How much control do you think a person exerts over another person? How exactly do you "silence" the "radical element"? If out of 10,000 people, 9,900 want peace and 100 want to blow things up, how does the 9,900 stop the 100, Paul? Don't just tell me that they need to stop them; tell me how. Because if there is some obvious way in which individual people can stop others from committing violence then maybe I would agree with you. Of course then the same questions could be applied to us.

Are you saying the Muslim perception is in error or are you agreeing with me that in fact the two cultures are diametrically opposed?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to quit snivelling over the injustices of the past, and forgive, but never forget, so we do not repeat the same mistakes? If we do not get past this endless bickering over who did what, to who, when... we will never progress.

The past??! You think Western imperialism is in the past? What is this war in Iraq about?, because it sure wasn't about weapons of mass destruction. What is the war in Afghanistan about?, because it sure wasn't about capturing bin Laden. What is it when we go to war to control oil? What is it when we support governments that we know oppress their people just because they can do something for us? What is it when we "outsource jobs" to other countries so that we can pay ridiculously small amounts of money for the work done? What is it when we apply economic and political pressure to force other countries to open up their markets to us? You say later in your post that you see us as trying to "advance" the rest of the world. Yeah, the British thought they were civilizing the savages too. What makes you think that we're better than we were in "the past"? Because we're better at deluding ourselves? Yes, there is a clash between cultures but I don't think we agree on what the cause of the clash is.

Fine words Lilithu, but I ask, does that make it ok. Does that somehow make it acceptable?

Violence is never acceptable. But that (poverty, despair, anger) makes it understandable. The West is reacting as if the violent response is crazy. Or that there is something inherently wrong with Islam. We are not taking any responsibility for our actions, and our response is ridicule and violence, which does nothing to address the root problems.

The "west", on the other hand has to come to grips with its own limitations. I am not convinced that it is wise to bring countries that are in effect still in the 19th century, directly into the 21st century.

There is no such thing as a country which is "still in the 19th century." We live in a time of globalization - our economies, our politics, our cultures are all linked. There is nothing that any country can do that doesn't affect all the other countries to some extent or another. And there is nothing that we in the West can do to a country that will not affect other countries and ourselves in ways that we didn't even calculate. The time for the illusion of separateness is over.

All you're saying is that they are different from we are and you think that difference is a matter of advancement/progress. That '"western" civilization is arguably the most advanced to ever exist on the planet' is more than a little arguable. We assume that we're the most advanced and that it would be better if everyone were like us, and then we're baffled when people get angry at 1) our assumptions and 2) our efforts to "modernize" everyone else.

It just bothered me that you put the blame solely on the west.

As opposed to putting the blame solely on Muslims?

From your first post: "Islam is indeed our favorite whipping boy now and I might add, for very good reasons. I also think that the blame for our perception falls directly on the shoulders of Muslims, indiviually and collectively."

I put the blame on American perceptions because the thread was about America's View on Islam. That's what the poll results were about. That was the context of my comments. Within this country that I love, that espouses the ideals of openness and equality that I love, people are getting treated like crap because of their religion or because of the color of their skin (because let's face it, Americans equate Islam with Arabs), neither one of which is acceptable.

 

[evearael]

Lilithu... your posts are astoundingly well reasoned and written. Thank you! As soon as my frubals refresh...

 

[Quiddity]

Doesn't lilthu rock? :jam: Awesome job as always lilthu. Must spread karma...

 

[nutshell]

I got in a debate with fundamentalist Christians and the only person supporting me was a Muslim. Muslim does not equal terrorist. There are Muslims of all kinds just as there are Christians of all kinds.

 

[Judgement Day]

Doesn't lilthu rock? :jam:

She sure does! :jam: A very sound response, Lilithu :clap.

 

[lilithu]

However, when public perception of a given group is turned, by whatever means in a contrary direction, it is somewhat illogical to expect those lulled masses to just come around and see things as they truly are. My point is, those lulled masses have no direct evidence to think otherwise and simply see more that solidifies their view.

THAT is why I am saying Muslims have to do something. The alternative is for us to patiently wait for enlightened thinkers such as yourself to point out the error of our understanding.

You asked me what CAN they do, and I admit, I don't have much of a comeback.
We live in the MEDIA age. You cannot deny this. That is why I feel they must sell us on their side of the equation, as no one is likely to do it for them. SHOULD they have to sell their view? NO, they SHOULD not HAVE to. Plain and simple. I wish we DID live in a perfect world, but sadly, we do not. The brutal reality is, that they must do something, before it is too late to convince those of us who view them through jaundiced eyes. If they don't at least try, why on earth would we ever change our minds?

I agree. Unfortunately, if some members of a group cause people to have a bad opinion of the group, then others in the group have to try to set things straight. It isn't fair, but it is what it is.

I would only add that it isn't just up to them. Those of us who see what's going on need to stand with them. For one thing, knowing that they have support will make it easier for moderate/liberal Muslims to speak. Also, some people will be more willing to listen to a non-Muslim speak on behalf of Islam. So we need all of us working together.

In closing, Lilithu, your post really made me think. It might sound like I am joking, but have you ever thought of public speaking? I think more people need to hear what you have to say. Who knows, dear one, maybe you're the one that gets the ball rolling. You never know, till you try. Personally, I think you would be excellent and I for one, would come to hear you speak... in a heartbeat.

That's very kind of you, but I hate public speaking.

*closes eyes, wipes away a tear, clicks Submit Reply*

I'm just glad we're not arguing anymore. :hug:

 

[Peace]

I said: "Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim."

To which you said in direct response: "You fail to point out that Muslims also dominate some of the most backward nations on the face of the earth. I think that is rather telling."

Now how is someone reasonably supposed to take that? What was your point if it wasn't to imply causality? If Islam is not the cause, then why are you criticizing Islam and not the real cause?


You mentioned the poor image/marketing problem in the last post too and I just couldn't deal with it.

From your last post: "The fault with Islam is that it has done an exceedingly poor job of marketing itself. If I saw Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community, I assure you I would notice rather quickly. Sadly, I do not. I don't see them doing anything, in fact as they do blend rather nicely in with the scenery. That is the point. Lilithu, if my group were under attack and I felt our reputation was being unfairly malainged, I would go out of my way to prove otherwise. Get it? I could not just sit on my hands and do nothing, praying for a resoultion from an external source."

Is religion a product to be marketed, Paul? What are you, an ad exec? Are we just so ingrained in the capitalist mindset that everything is framed in that way? Who exactly are the "ad execs" in this case who have control over how the "product" is "marketed"? And what makes you think that we are the "consumers" to which the "product" needs to be sold? What makes us so arrogant as to think that someone else's culture and faith needs to be "marketed" to us so that we'll accept it? Oh yeah, that's right, it's because when we don't like something we go and drop bombs on it, so everyone had better prove to us that they're worthy of existence.

As for your comments about Muslims in the U.S., how many Americans of any stripe perform "wonderful, selfless acts" in their community, Paul? How many? I do see some "Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community." That's because I work with them through my church and in that context I know that they are Muslim. Believe it or not, they do not hang neon signs around their necks saying "Look everyone! I'm a Muslim and I'm performing a wonderful, selfless act!" And I also know other Muslims who are just as self-absorbed as the rest of us are. And why should Muslims be held to a higher standard than any other group?

As for your comments about Muslims in other countries that are in turmoil, what exactly do you expect them to do? After every wave of violence I have heard calls from moderate Muslims for peace, denouncing the violence. But apparently this is insufficient for you. So what? Are they supposed to wade into the rioting and physically try to stop it? Would you do that? I'll say right up front that I would not. Honestly, I really don't see how you can ask these questions - how you can hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of some Muslims? How much control do you think a person exerts over another person? How exactly do you "silence" the "radical element"? If out of 10,000 people, 9,900 want peace and 100 want to blow things up, how does the 9,900 stop the 100, Paul? Don't just tell me that they need to stop them; tell me how. Because if there is some obvious way in which individual people can stop others from committing violence then maybe I would agree with you. Of course then the same questions could be applied to us.


The past??! You think Western imperialism is in the past? What is this war in Iraq about?, because it sure wasn't about weapons of mass destruction. What is the war in Afghanistan about?, because it sure wasn't about capturing bin Laden. What is it when we go to war to control oil? What is it when we support governments that we know oppress their people just because they can do something for us? What is it when we "outsource jobs" to other countries so that we can pay ridiculously small amounts of money for the work done? What is it when we apply economic and political pressure to force other countries to open up their markets to us? You say later in your post that you see us as trying to "advance" the rest of the world. Yeah, the British thought they were civilizing the savages too. What makes you think that we're better than we were in "the past"? Because we're better at deluding ourselves? Yes, there is a clash between cultures but I don't think we agree on what the cause of the clash is.


Violence is never acceptable. But that (poverty, despair, anger) makes it understandable. The West is reacting as if the violent response is crazy. Or that there is something inherently wrong with Islam. We are not taking any responsibility for our actions, and our response is ridicule and violence, which does nothing to address the root problems.


There is no such thing as a country which is "still in the 19th century." We live in a time of globalization - our economies, our politics, our cultures are all linked. There is nothing that any country can do that doesn't affect all the other countries to some extent or another. And there is nothing that we in the West can do to a country that will not affect other countries and ourselves in ways that we didn't even calculate. The time for the illusion of separateness is over.

All you're saying is that they are different from we are and you think that difference is a matter of advancement/progress. That '"western" civilization is arguably the most advanced to ever exist on the planet' is more than a little arguable. We assume that we're the most advanced and that it would be better if everyone were like us, and then we're baffled when people get angry at 1) our assumptions and 2) our efforts to "modernize" everyone else.


As opposed to putting the blame solely on Muslims?

From your first post: "Islam is indeed our favorite whipping boy now and I might add, for very good reasons. I also think that the blame for our perception falls directly on the shoulders of Muslims, indiviually and collectively."

I put the blame on American perceptions because the thread was about America's View on Islam. That's what the poll results were about. That was the context of my comments. Within this country that I love, that espouses the ideals of openness and equality that I love, people are getting treated like crap because of their religion or because of the color of their skin (because let's face it, Americans equate Islam with Arabs), neither one of which is acceptable.

May God bless your mind and the hands that wrote this!!! Clap

 

[michel]

I said: "Muslims constitute over 1.2 billion people in this world, from all over this world. That means about 20% of the world's population is Muslim."

To which you said in direct response: "You fail to point out that Muslims also dominate some of the most backward nations on the face of the earth. I think that is rather telling."

Now how is someone reasonably supposed to take that? What was your point if it wasn't to imply causality? If Islam is not the cause, then why are you criticizing Islam and not the real cause?


You mentioned the poor image/marketing problem in the last post too and I just couldn't deal with it.

From your last post: "The fault with Islam is that it has done an exceedingly poor job of marketing itself. If I saw Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community, I assure you I would notice rather quickly. Sadly, I do not. I don't see them doing anything, in fact as they do blend rather nicely in with the scenery. That is the point. Lilithu, if my group were under attack and I felt our reputation was being unfairly malainged, I would go out of my way to prove otherwise. Get it? I could not just sit on my hands and do nothing, praying for a resoultion from an external source."

Is religion a product to be marketed, Paul? What are you, an ad exec? Are we just so ingrained in the capitalist mindset that everything is framed in that way? Who exactly are the "ad execs" in this case who have control over how the "product" is "marketed"? And what makes you think that we are the "consumers" to which the "product" needs to be sold? What makes us so arrogant as to think that someone else's culture and faith needs to be "marketed" to us so that we'll accept it? Oh yeah, that's right, it's because when we don't like something we go and drop bombs on it, so everyone had better prove to us that they're worthy of existence.

As for your comments about Muslims in the U.S., how many Americans of any stripe perform "wonderful, selfless acts" in their community, Paul? How many? I do see some "Muslims performing wonderful, selfless acts in my own community." That's because I work with them through my church and in that context I know that they are Muslim. Believe it or not, they do not hang neon signs around their necks saying "Look everyone! I'm a Muslim and I'm performing a wonderful, selfless act!" And I also know other Muslims who are just as self-absorbed as the rest of us are. And why should Muslims be held to a higher standard than any other group?

As for your comments about Muslims in other countries that are in turmoil, what exactly do you expect them to do? After every wave of violence I have heard calls from moderate Muslims for peace, denouncing the violence. But apparently this is insufficient for you. So what? Are they supposed to wade into the rioting and physically try to stop it? Would you do that? I'll say right up front that I would not. Honestly, I really don't see how you can ask these questions - how you can hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of some Muslims? How much control do you think a person exerts over another person? How exactly do you "silence" the "radical element"? If out of 10,000 people, 9,900 want peace and 100 want to blow things up, how does the 9,900 stop the 100, Paul? Don't just tell me that they need to stop them; tell me how. Because if there is some obvious way in which individual people can stop others from committing violence then maybe I would agree with you. Of course then the same questions could be applied to us.


The past??! You think Western imperialism is in the past? What is this war in Iraq about?, because it sure wasn't about weapons of mass destruction. What is the war in Afghanistan about?, because it sure wasn't about capturing bin Laden. What is it when we go to war to control oil? What is it when we support governments that we know oppress their people just because they can do something for us? What is it when we "outsource jobs" to other countries so that we can pay ridiculously small amounts of money for the work done? What is it when we apply economic and political pressure to force other countries to open up their markets to us? You say later in your post that you see us as trying to "advance" the rest of the world. Yeah, the British thought they were civilizing the savages too. What makes you think that we're better than we were in "the past"? Because we're better at deluding ourselves? Yes, there is a clash between cultures but I don't think we agree on what the cause of the clash is.


Violence is never acceptable. But that (poverty, despair, anger) makes it understandable. The West is reacting as if the violent response is crazy. Or that there is something inherently wrong with Islam. We are not taking any responsibility for our actions, and our response is ridicule and violence, which does nothing to address the root problems.


There is no such thing as a country which is "still in the 19th century." We live in a time of globalization - our economies, our politics, our cultures are all linked. There is nothing that any country can do that doesn't affect all the other countries to some extent or another. And there is nothing that we in the West can do to a country that will not affect other countries and ourselves in ways that we didn't even calculate. The time for the illusion of separateness is over.

All you're saying is that they are different from we are and you think that difference is a matter of advancement/progress. That '"western" civilization is arguably the most advanced to ever exist on the planet' is more than a little arguable. We assume that we're the most advanced and that it would be better if everyone were like us, and then we're baffled when people get angry at 1) our assumptions and 2) our efforts to "modernize" everyone else.


As opposed to putting the blame solely on Muslims?

From your first post: "Islam is indeed our favorite whipping boy now and I might add, for very good reasons. I also think that the blame for our perception falls directly on the shoulders of Muslims, indiviually and collectively."

I put the blame on American perceptions because the thread was about America's View on Islam. That's what the poll results were about. That was the context of my comments. Within this country that I love, that espouses the ideals of openness and equality that I love, people are getting treated like crap because of their religion or because of the color of their skin (because let's face it, Americans equate Islam with Arabs), neither one of which is acceptable.

Very good points, as always; but can you really blame the individuals (who make up the public) for a perception of a group, based on what they have seen fundamentalists and extremists do ? Those acts which are dwelt on by the media (because that is what the public wants to hear and see ?)

Maybe we all need the re-education to see through the suicide bombers and heel-raisers, to see the silent, good majority behind them. I am sure most of us here on the forum don't need that re-education, because, by the very nature of our being here, we want to learn, we want to think.

For each one of us, how many 'joe public sheep' are there walking the streets, seeing Islam as it has been portrayed by the extremists?........maybe it is up to the decent, honest, and caring ones to do something about the loud mouthed murderers, just as the same can be said about Christians (or any other group)..........