An advantage to a fall

[Mjolnir]

Lucifer is said to have rejected heaven, and with him many angels. Rebelling against God in full sight of all his glory. Is his reason for doing this selfish,him wanting to become as God? He had to have seen some advantage in this, he could do something, right? Or did he do it knowing there was no hope to become like God? If he was the greatest of the angels, and he did see the glory of God, how could he rebel, and be condemned to an eternity of punishment, no less by his own will?

 

[3.14]

because trying and failing is better then spending an eternity wondering what if

 

[zenzero]

Friend Mjolnir,
Well could be Lucifer never realised that He too is part of God and and neither the WHOLE nor the PART is complete without each other.
Love & rgds

 

[Heneni]

:areyoucraPerhaps satan is the fallen ego of spiritual beings. He is the spiritual being representing all that is ego. For that reason, God cast him out.

 

[sandandfoam]

:areyoucraPerhaps satan is the fallen ego of spiritual beings. He is the spiritual being representing all that is ego. For that reason, God cast him out.

I'm on almost the same page. I think perhaps God is a manifestation of the superego, and Satan a manifestation of the Id.

 

[Heneni]

oooeee what is the superego?

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Lucifer is said to have rejected heaven, and with him many angels. Rebelling against God in full sight of all his glory. Is his reason for doing this selfish,him wanting to become as God? He had to have seen some advantage in this, he could do something, right? Or did he do it knowing there was no hope to become like God? If he was the greatest of the angels, and he did see the glory of God, how could he rebel, and be condemned to an eternity of punishment, no less by his own will?

This is what I think... I think. lol.

Lucifer firstly did not agree with knowledge being witheld, hence he is considered the bringer of knowledge, light bringer, etc. Second, lucifer believed in each human having a spark of divinity, and the capability to expand and grow that divinity. That doesn't mean he wanted to overthrow God per se. He just did not see submission to any God as being necessary to grow spiritually. And um, I whole heartedly have competely dismissed any notions of eternal punishment. Humans were created with dark and light nature inherently. It is useless to feel less than because of it. It is part of you. And at this point I believe Lucifer very well could be a God among many. If Lucifer would have never fallen, theoretically, we might not know the diference between good and evil, because everything would be good. We just wouldn't know everything was good because there would be no bad to compare it to. We'd be braindead sheltered goodey-two-shoes. lol.

 

[Mjolnir]

This is what I think... I think. lol.

Lucifer firstly did not agree with knowledge being witheld, hence he is considered the bringer of knowledge, light bringer, etc. Second, lucifer believed in each human having a spark of divinity, and the capability to expand and grow that divinity. That doesn't mean he wanted to overthrow God per se. He just did not see submission to any God as being necessary to grow spiritually. And um, I whole heartedly have competely dismissed any notions of eternal punishment. Humans were created with dark and light nature inherently. It is useless to feel less than because of it. It is part of you. And at this point I believe Lucifer very well could be a God among many. If Lucifer would have never fallen, theoretically, we might not know the diference between good and evil, because everything would be good. We just wouldn't know everything was good because there would be no bad to compare it to. We'd be braindead sheltered goodey-two-shoes. lol.

Interesting. I like it.

 

[Wandered Off]

Is his reason for doing this selfish,him wanting to become as God?

I view the story more as an attempt to explain perceived evil in the world, which makes the motives of the players not the real focus (and maybe explains why they seem not that well thought out).

 

[Heneni]

An advantage to a fall...

There comes a time in every christians life, when all of a sudden it dawns on them that they are children of the living god....an awakening to the reality of this fact can cause pride. So god hides our glory from us, in the form of a human body.

Satan, when he became aware of his brilliance, turned away from god because that brilliance and glory was so much, he felt he could take over

He has now fallen from glory and so have we. We are not able to see that glory with our natural eyes, but our spiritual eyes can still get a glimpse of it. How you deal with that revelation is important.

The disciples, while they were with jesus, had discovered perhaps throught Jesus's eyes, that they are powerfull and had a taste of this glorious being inside of them. They could command spirits, they could heal the sick, they were with the miracle worker of they day! They started to become corrupt. Peter asked Jesus if lightining should be called for to destroy those that appose him. Jesus rebuked him. They wanted to send the little kiddies away. Jesus rebuked them. They were bickering about who was going to be the most important in heaven.

Our problem is not our fallen state, but what lies within us. It is glorious and powerful, so glorious and powerful that it can corrupt us, and it did. When eve and adam ate of the tree they realised that they were in human bodies, they tried to cover themselves up. They knew that they had lost their glorious bodies, and were ashamed of what they now had. Their glory was hidden from them.

Satan tempted eve with the knowledge of good and evil, because she and adam were not aware of their glory. But satan could clearly see it. And that glory was more than his. When they disobeyed god, they recieved bodies that looked different to the ones they had before, they knew they were naked. They knew they were different. This resulted in losing their glory.

currently we have no idea of our glory. we are vaguely aware of our status. We are children of the living god. but we dont look it. So now, the advantage is, that we dont look like glorious beings, and even if we tried we wont see our full glory while on this planet. god hides it from us once again. For every natural being there is a spiritual copy. The natural one is fallen, the spiritual one is glorious. When the natural fades away and when the glorious is left, we will not be corrupted by it, but be glorified in it. The body will become a glorifying instrument, rather than our glorious state leading to our fall.

 

[Mjolnir]

I view the story more as an attempt to explain perceived evil in the world, which makes the motives of the players not the real focus (and maybe explains why they seem not that well thought out).

In this story i find the motives of the players an important part. Without the motives, the story seems meaningless to me. Even though it is just a story, things can be learned from both Lucifer and God.

 

[Mjolnir]

An advantage to a fall...


Our problem is not our fallen state, but what lies within us. It is glorious and powerful, so glorious and powerful that it can corrupt us, and it did. When eve and adam ate of the tree they realised that they were in human bodies, they tried to cover themselves up. They knew that they had lost their glorious bodies, and were ashamed of what they now had. Their glory was hidden from them.


currently we have no idea of our glory. we are vaguely aware of our status. We are children of the living god. but we dont look it. So now, the advantage is, that we dont look like glorious beings, and even if we tried we wont see our full glory while on this planet. god hides it from us once again. For every natural being there is a spiritual copy. The natural one is fallen, the spiritual one is glorious. When the natural fades away and when the glorious is left, we will not be corrupted by it, but be glorified in it. The body will become a glorifying instrument, rather than our glorious state leading to our fall.

Then do you think humans have the same choice, once they realize their glorious state, to do the same thing as Lucifer did?

If our glorious state can corrupt us, isn't that due to our fallen state that we can be corrupted?

 

[Heneni]

Then do you think humans have the same choice, once they realize their glorious state, to do the same thing as Lucifer did?

If our glorious state can corrupt us, isn't that due to our fallen state that we can be corrupted?

To your first question, the answer is Yes, we could be corrupted again, but I believe we will have a memory of what its was like to have fallen from glory. We will remember a time, when we knew our own brilliance and was corrupted by it and fell from glory. So we would not seek out to know this glory again. We wont want to reach for that tree of knowledge of good and evil.


To your second question. It seems like we get corrupted when we look at ourselves apart from god.

Satan was glorious, had no idea he was, at one point he ...I dont know how to put it...stepped back, and looked at himself detached from the whole, and that is when he realised he was glorious, and it corrupted him. So in that sense, anything done or seen outside of god can corrupt us.

So at the moment our glory is hidden from us, but every so now and then we get a glimpse of it. We want to be restored back to it. Not because we want the power and the glory, but because instictively we know that we are 'gods' and we know that we are broken and messed up from our fall.

 

[Scott1]

Lucifer is said to have rejected heaven, and with him many angels. Rebelling against God in full sight of all his glory. Is his reason for doing this selfish,him wanting to become as God? He had to have seen some advantage in this, he could do something, right? Or did he do it knowing there was no hope to become like God? If he was the greatest of the angels, and he did see the glory of God, how could he rebel, and be condemned to an eternity of punishment, no less by his own will?

CCC #391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

My two cents.

 

[Mjolnir]

CCC #391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

My two cents.

The thing I do not understand is how rejecting God can lead to you being supposedly one of the most evil beings. Is it just because God is all good, so if you are rejecting what is all good, therefore you must be all evil?

 

[opuntia]

The reasons for the Fall are outlined by the LDS Church as I shall convey them (see Guide to the Scriptures: Lucifer - click on Show References for more material).

Lucifer was among the great ones in Heaven along with Jesus. (This explanation presumes you will assume a belief in a pre-existent state.) After a growing period the Father proposed a plan in which a Savior would be required and all the inhabitants of the earth would have their agency (the power to choose good or evil). Lucifer saw it as a chance to offer an alternative plan where he would compel all the beings by taking away their agency and save them all. And all that he asked for was the throne of God.

The Father rejected his plan and eventually Lucifer and those who sided with his plan rebelled. So reads Revelation 12:7-9 ( KJV):

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Greek, perhaps a charismatic being]; and the dragon fought and his angels,

"And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Jesus came in due time and established the Father's plan of salvation, where anyone who seeks the full blessings of God would adhere to the rules established under that plan.

Satan and his angels obviously did not receive bodies like we did, we who apparently chose the Father's plan. Satan lost a gift which we take for granted and are probably unaware we possess it. John wrote, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9). We all possess a light given by God. Some people call it a conscience. It is something that tells us what is right and what is wrong. We can of course ignore it--to the point that we no longer hear it.

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15).

A person void of a conscience is a sociopath, someone you might be afraid of because serial killers are usually sociopaths--people lacking normal emotions for other people.

"Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness." (Psalm 112:4).

 

[Father Heathen]

Lucifer is said to have rejected heaven, and with him many angels. Rebelling against God in full sight of all his glory. Is his reason for doing this selfish,him wanting to become as God? He had to have seen some advantage in this, he could do something, right? Or did he do it knowing there was no hope to become like God? If he was the greatest of the angels, and he did see the glory of God, how could he rebel, and be condemned to an eternity of punishment, no less by his own will?

Perhaps Satan's revolution was similar to that of the American revolution; a fight against tyranny and for liberty and independence.

 

[Ben Masada]

The only advantage to a fall is acquisition of knowledge and to come out of it stronger.

Ben

 

[Arch-Angel]

Is it just because God is all good, so if you are rejecting what is all good, therefore you must be all evil?

correct.

 

[bigrunnermaniac]

I agree with saint tigeress. Lucifer wasn't this all evil selfish disagreeing power, he viewed many things differently. It was right for him to take a stand. I do not think he did that in the ideology that he was going to succeed, but that he would show that you should not follow blindly in the path of somebody else even a God. And when my nieve mind first came across the subject I thought about it. If the devil is this evil spirit. Why would he punish the people that do not believe in god. If anything he would be condoning it.
Well that is just my take. Like to see yours.