An appeal for accurate naming of expectations, or: Is belief truly belief?

[LuisDantas]

So basically what you're saying is that believers don't actually believe?

Some do. Most have learned that questioning will lead to estrangement and eventually stopped thinking about it.

And where do you come up with that absurd conclusion?

This world.

The "absurd" part is on you, though.

In Christianity, belief that Jesus is God's son and literally died and rose from the dead is not " "optional."
Without that, you're not a believer, you are a fake.

Indeed. That is why I saw the need for this thread.

 

[PureX]

This is a contradictory subjective statement of what is 'belief' based on the claim that you know what belief means to everyone else.

I don't care what it means to anyone else. The statement I made is based on logic, not on the common and foolish misuse of the term by others. Once one claims to "believe" (internally or to others), they are proclaiming that they no longer doubt. It's very simple. And if you think about it just a little bit, you will see that this is the logical meaning of the term. In fact, there really isn't any other way to take it without the term becoming superfluous.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't care what it means to anyone else. The statement I made is based on logic, not on the common and foolish misuse of the term by others. Once one claims to "believe" (internally or to others), they are proclaiming that they no longer doubt. It's very simple. And if you think about it just a little bit, you will see that this is the logical meaning of the term. In fact, there really isn't any other way to take it without the term becoming superfluous.

Interesting response; 'I don't care.'

No, your logic is circular here to justify your own belief in absolute terms, which is illogical.

 

[PureX]

Interesting response; 'I don't care.'

No, your logic is circular here to justify your own belief in absolute terms, which is illogical.

How is it "circular"? Explain.

And what good is a definition that doesn't define anything? Like claiming that the definition of "believe" means that you accept something as true, yet you also doubt the truthfulness of what you're claiming to accept as true. If you have accepted something as true, why are you doubting that it's true? And if you're doubting that it's true, why are proclaiming your acceptance of it being true? See my point? The word either means something or it doesn't. I say it means that you have chosen to stop doubting, and you have accepted "X" as being true. You "believe" that "X" is true.

Now please explain to me, logically, why you think It also means that you doubt the truthfulness of what you just claimed to believe is true.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Some do. Most have learned that questioning will lead to estrangement and eventually stopped thinking about it.

Again how do you come to this absurd conclusion.
If they don't believe why would they worship?

 

[LuisDantas]

Again how do you come to this absurd conclusion.
If they don't believe why would they worship?

Have you ever lived in a community with strong Abrahamic influences?

In all honesty, you seem to be implying that you never did.

It is cute that you call the obvious "absurd", in any case.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Have you ever lived in a community with strong Abrahamic influences?

In all honesty, you seem to be implying that you never did.

It is cute that you call the obvious "absurd", in any case.

I have " lived" in church community if that's what you mean. I never doubted that the people there truly believed. It's not as if they are being forced to participate in worship of the God of Abraham.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have " lived" in church community if that's what you mean. I never doubted that the people there truly believed. It's not as if they are being forced to participate in worship of the God of Abraham.

Really?

I guess I will have to believe you.

Rest assured however that your experience is by no means representative.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Really?

I guess I will have to believe you.

Rest assured however that your experience is by no means representative.

Who are you speaking of that is being forced to worship? Muslims?
It is certainly not that way in Christian community.

 

[LuisDantas]

Who are you speaking of that is being forced to worship? Muslims?
It is certainly not that way in Christian community.

Not in your experience, perhaps.

Myself, I know differently.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A recent exchange led me to revisit an ancient realization: while it is customary to talk of "believers" in some creeds, belief proper is often optional and very circunstantial.

It seems to me that in practice what we see (most often and most emphatically in the Abrahamics) is rarely an expectation of belief proper, but rather of a certain attitude of reverence or at least quiet respect towards those beliefs.

In a sense that is necessary; those doctrines tend to be proselitistic in nature and to hold expectations that non-believers can or will be convinced at some point. In practical terms, they adopt belief itself as a goal, even as a virtue to be cherished and praised.

I am not sympathetic to that stance, particularly when the beliefs are directed towards the idea of the existence of some variety of the Abrahamic-styled gods, which I see as anathema to religiosity itself.

But beyond that, I just don't think that it is healthy to deliberately nurture a duty of delusion and obfuscation inside a group that aims to have some form of religious brotherhood. That attitude creates quite a lot of anxiety and mistrust in order to protect the perception of shared beliefs. That stress isn't otherwise necessary and IMO isn't even helpful for any proper religious purposes.

If you disagree, would you like to elaborate on how or why? Does your experience clash with mine in some way that you would want to express here?

Thanks in advance.

I agree with your stance with regards to belief. I often go through that in my mind by asking ‘if everyone adopted my belief would the world be a better place’? And what comes back is that if all the world today adopted my religion in name, that wouldn’t change anything.

However, If a ‘belief’ transforms a person from a hateful attitude to a loving and tolerant one and society from a corrupt one to a truthful and honest one then it’s got my attention. Otherwise just getting everyone to adopt a particular brand name is worthless and useless without any transformation of character.

Having said that I believe that ‘unconditional acceptance’ of all people is the best attitude all should have. Judge none, accept all without exception. No need to put a name on it. Just accept people for who they are no matter what they believe or don’t believe etc.

 

[LuisDantas]

However, If a ‘belief’ transforms a person from a hateful attitude to a loving and tolerant one and society from a corrupt one to a truthful and honest one then it’s got my attention.

Mine as well... but I stand unconvinced that it is an usual occurrence. I am all too aware of how often social binding is based on the contrast with some despised "other".

 

[shunyadragon]

How is it "circular"? Explain.

And what good is a definition that doesn't define anything? Like claiming that the definition of "believe" means that you accept something as true, yet you also doubt the truthfulness of what you're claiming to accept as true. If you have accepted something as true, why are you doubting that it's true? And if you're doubting that it's true, why are proclaiming your acceptance of it being true? See my point? The word either means something or it doesn't. I say it means that you have chosen to stop doubting, and you have accepted "X" as being true. You "believe" that "X" is true.

Now please explain to me, logically, why you think It also means that you doubt the truthfulness of what you just claimed to believe is true.

Oh! It means something, but you are putting a narrower definition that suits your agenda. First, the definition of believe does not say that to believe means without exception, doubt or the ability to question one's belief and research alternatives..

Second, it is circular, because what you state is a subjective narrow restrictive belief stereotyping other beliefs as narrow and restrictive from alternatives..

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it even worth the trouble to go through such effort for no apparent purpose?