An Interesting challenge

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes. But what is love based on Abdul'baha?
I understand what he claims to be its outcome, but not what it is.
If love give life, what takes them?
hate?
so hate and love are entities?

Love is the Life Force, hate is the lack of Love. We can say Love is the Light and Rays of the Sun that gives this world Life.

We can now start to see how Faith and Science must work together. The Bible tells us how this Creation works and we must come to a firm understanding as to why this is so;

Isaiah 45:7I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Light is Life, to understand light, darkness, the absence of light is required. Then there are the scales of darkness as we move away from the Light. Thus all the Virtues are the animating forces of Life, as we move away from the virtues we move towards what is the absence of them. The Holy books record this as Good and Evil. Good is all the virtues and of God, evil is the lack of virtues and not of God.

So in a scientific sense we can never find what is the Essence of the source of Light, which is the Sun in our material world. We can only come to see the Attributes of the Sun and use those attributes to advance in our knowledge of all that is.

Hope this was somewhat helpful.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What about non living things?

The way I see it currently is that All things have life in their state of being. We are told there is 5 Aspect of Spirit required to promote growth - Best to read this short talk - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 143-145

In each stage of being there is a set limit, but all is required for the evolution of life to unfold;

"..In the beginning of his formation the mind and spirit also existed, but they were hidden; later they were manifested. In the womb of the world mind and spirit also existed in the embryo, but they were concealed; afterward they appeared. So it is that in the seed the tree exists, but it is hidden and concealed; when it develops and grows, the complete tree appears. In the same way the growth and development of all beings is gradual; this is the universal divine organization and the natural system. The seed does not at once become a tree; the embryo does not at once become a man; the mineral does not suddenly become a stone. No, they grow and develop gradually and attain the limit of perfection. (SAQ 198-199)

With all this we are told that 'NATURE IS GOVERNED BY ONE UNIVERSAL LAW' - "Nature is that condition, that reality, which in appearance consists in life and death, or, in other words, in the composition and decomposition of all things.This Nature is subjected to an absolute organization, to determined laws, to a complete order and a finished design, from which it will never depart—to such a degree, indeed, that if you look carefully and with keen sight, from the smallest invisible atom up to such large bodies of the world of existence as the globe of the sun or the other great stars and luminous spheres, whether you regard their arrangement, their composition, their form or their movement, you will find that all are in the highest degree of organization and are under one law from which they will never depart.
But when you look at Nature itself, you see that it has no intelligence, no will. For instance, the nature of fire is to burn; it burns without will or intelligence. The nature of water is fluidity; it flows without will or intelligence. The nature of the sun is radiance; it shines without will or intelligence. The nature of vapor is to ascend; it ascends without will or intelligence. Thus it is clear that the natural movements of all things are compelled; there are no voluntary movements except those of animals and, above all, those of man. Man is able to resist and to oppose Nature because he discovers the constitution of things, and through this he commands the forces of Nature; all the inventions he has made are due to his discovery of the constitution of things. For example, he invented the telegraph, which is the means of communication between the East and the West. It is evident, then, that man rules over Nature."

Thus man has been given the ability in science to grasp all that we can know, but we also have a limit and it is important to know that we do.

You may like this link on what we will find - Extraterrestrial Life - Extraterrestrial Life

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok.
So where did he come up with the term? was he one of the few that accepted the idea of atoms?

As for the rest, you just explained to me what each word means based on science.
that is not what i asked for.
I asked for the authors definition.
Why did he use the word sun?
Why did he say heart? why not core?
What is the connection to the living heart? are they similar in structure according to the author?

I believe I explained that in detail reread the posts, including knowledge not previously known

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Is there a possibility that in some manner, sound can affect water molecules in a way that it will cause a permanent change of structure?

There is no permanent structure in water nor can there be because it is a liquid.

The claim is that they become more effective to the body.
It would be not effective telling you the word as what counts is the proper pronouniation
(there are several possible)

That is a bit vague. By what measure is the body more effective?

 

[Segev Moran]

I will give one thought on this but leave shunyadragon to add his knowledge of the sciences, to which I have little.

Will be appreciated.

the purpose of a Messenger of God is to change the Hearts of the People in the age they come to assist them to find a Unity of thought and a fruitful way of life.

Unfortunately mostly they come to assist a very specific group of people.

In this process the Words uttered by the Messenger are the animating force of light and life, from these Words all Science becomes possible. Thus a Messenger in achieving this aim will enshrine within those Words great material truths, that can be found only when we look for them.

You are aware of the persecution a Messenger faces when they deliver a Message, the records show this happens in every age. This happens without giving direct scientific knowledge to which people are not ready to grasp.

I am not really aware of that.
In my POV these are all stories and never have a real messenger of God was among us.
I would assume that a real messenger of God wouldn't be easily disregarded.
Let alone, will be accepted by the entire world and not just a group of people who happen to believe the same ideas.

So here is an example of this, the Son of Baha'u'llah talking to The Japanese Ambassador to a European capital (Viscount Arakawa—Madrid ) in 1912.

"....Speaking of religion and science, the two great wings with which the bird of human kind is able to soar, He said: “Scientific discoveries have increased material civilization. There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.” Bahá'í Reference Library - Japan Will Turn Ablaze!, Pages 51-53

Thus what is the first thing man saw when they split the first Atom, would it not be the light like that of the Sun, to which would blind you if you looked at it! So they are not there to tell us about the Make up of the atom and how to split it, but to tell us how to use all we find with wisdom based in the love of God and Gods Laws.

Yet the greatest prophet of the Muslim belief was far from acting based on love and such.
Same goes for any other messenger or prophet based on many religious stories.
How can you explain such an anomaly?

The Koran contains many verses that hint to future findings in Science.

Can you give an example of one that can be examined or studied in a scientific way?

It is just another proof we are given that the Messengers are here for our benefit and for us to consider in all justice what they have offered.
Regards Tony

Who is our?
Is a christian messenger here for the benefit of Christians or all man kind?
cheers
Also,
What about fusion?
Does Baha'u'llah also refers to fusion in his scriptures?

 

[Segev Moran]

Love is the Life Force, hate is the lack of Love.

This is very misleading.
It seems you make the same analogy of light and dark to love and hate while they are not really related.
I can be absent of love to someone and not hate him.
for that matter, Zero love is not hate, it is just lack of love.
Unlike dark being a lack of light, hate is an active emotion, not passive.

We can say Love is the Light and Rays of the Sun that gives this world Life.

So what are the rays of the sun?
I don't like such statements as they provide a very subjective understanding.
To one, light can be a good thing, to the other it can be very bad.

We can now start to see how Faith and Science must work together.

Sorry, can't really see it yet.
In my POV faith is nothing but a hurdle when it comes to science.
Faith is very important, but not where facts and evidence are the basis.

The Bible tells us how this Creation works and we must come to a firm understanding as to why this is so;

Disagree

Isaiah 45:7I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Easier said.

Light is Life,
Nope. Life is life. Light is light.
There are many life forms that do not require light.

to understand light, darkness, the absence of light is required.

Agreed.

Then there are the scales of darkness as we move away from the Light.

Wrong.
There are only scales of light, the same as there are only scales of heat.
There is a very logical explanation why it is so.

Thus all the Virtues are the animating forces of Life, as we move away from the virtues we move towards what is the absence of them. The Holy books record this as Good and Evil. Good is all the virtues and of God, evil is the lack of virtues and not of God.

God created evil as it created good no?
So how come you decide that evil is not of god?

So in a scientific sense we can never find what is the Essence of the source of Light, which is the Sun in our material world. We can only come to see the Attributes of the Sun and use those attributes to advance in our knowledge of all that is.

Hope this was somewhat helpful.

A bit Thanks

Regards Tony

cheers

 

[Segev Moran]

There is no permanent structure in water nor can there be because it is a liquid.

I know of a term called water clusters.
I am not much familiar with it, i just know it means that water has a structured molecule formation or something like that.
Is it a valid theory or something that is nonsense?

That is a bit vague. By what measure is the body more effective?

Good question

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I know of a term called water clusters.
I am not much familiar with it, i just know it means that water has a structured molecule formation or something like that.
Is it a valid theory or something that is nonsense?

These would be transient arrangements of water molecules that would not be permanent. They are held loosely together by hydrogen bonds and would form, break apart, and reform all on their own. I would predict that any pressure wave moving from air into water could cause these water clusters to spontaneously form, but they wouldn't be permanent.

 

[Segev Moran]

These would be transient arrangements of water molecules that would not be permanent. They are held loosely together by hydrogen bonds and would form, break apart, and reform all on their own. I would predict that any pressure wave moving from air into water could cause these water clusters to spontaneously form, but they wouldn't be permanent.

But is it possible that a specific frequency (or pattern of frequencies) can cause a permanent or "long lasting" cluster of that sort?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

But is it possible that a specific frequency (or pattern of frequencies) can cause a permanent or "long lasting" cluster of that sort?

Not that I can see. I would think how loud the sound is and the shape of the water container would have a much stronger impact than the actual word.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

There's a great deal of natural science in the Torah, encoded in the gematria. There wasn't this artificial division between science and religion the way we see now. For instance, the first line of the Torah (with biblical gematria) has been carefully crafted to sum to 700:

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית + אֱלֹהִ֑ים + הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם + הָאָֽרֶץ = 700
Which reads (for those who don't do hebrew):
In the beginning + Elohim + The Heavens + The Earth = 700.

Imim (100) means 'days' so 700 for 7 days. The days of the week even add up to 777:

And there's this wonderful diagram behind the Tree of Life called the Seven Palaces, that is both very ancient and mathematically sublime. If you study the way the numbers interact on this diagram you might perhaps see why they might have considered this as evidence of God. Strictly speaking all this is the province of the Merkabah, which Kabbalah has made its beating heart even while hiding it in plain sight.

I would argue that these qualify as novel scientific breakthroughs using Kabbalah to advance the study of the history of the ancient near east. I'm not sure that this is what you were looking for or expecting however.

This is my first post to the forums. Nice to meet you all.

---------------------------------
Biblical gematria uses the following number set:
[1] א Aleph A = 1, ב Beth B = 2, ג Gimel G = 3, ש Shin Sh = 3, ד Daleth D = 4, ת Tav Th = 4,
ה Heh H,E = 5, ו Vav U,V,W = 6, ז Zayin Z = 7, ח Cheth Ch,C = 8, ט Teth T = 9,
י Yod I,J,Y = 10, כ,ך Kaph K = 20, ל Lamed L = 30, מ,ם Mem M = 40, נ,ן Nun N = 50,
ס Samekh S,X = 60, ע Ayin O = 70, פ,ף Peh Ph,P = 80, צ,ץ Tsade Ts = 90, ק Qoph Q = 100, ר Resh R = 200.

The Shematria gematria calculator uses this method (available by the link).

 

[Audie]

But is it possible that a specific frequency (or pattern of frequencies) can cause a permanent or "long lasting" cluster of that sort?

Sounds like the "energized water" in homeopathy

 

[paarsurrey]

An example of a scientific approach would be Gimatrya. (A mathematical value of characters).

Please inform us the basis of "Gimatrya". Who fixed the mathematical value of (alphabetical) characters in different languages and on what basis? And how it is termed scientific? Also, is there an scientific article published in a Scientific Journal of repute? If yes, please give a reference, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

There's a great deal of natural science in the Torah, encoded in the gematria. There wasn't this artificial division between science and religion the way we see now. For instance, the first line of the Torah (with biblical gematria) has been carefully crafted to sum to 700:

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית + אֱלֹהִ֑ים + הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם + הָאָֽרֶץ = 700
Which reads (for those who don't do hebrew):
In the beginning + Elohim + The Heavens + The Earth = 700.

Imim (100) means 'days' so 700 for 7 days. The days of the week even add up to 777:

And there's this wonderful diagram behind the Tree of Life called the Seven Palaces, that is both very ancient and mathematically sublime. If you study the way the numbers interact on this diagram you might perhaps see why they might have considered this as evidence of God. Strictly speaking all this is the province of the Merkabah, which Kabbalah has made its beating heart even while hiding it in plain sight.

I would argue that these qualify as novel scientific breakthroughs using Kabbalah to advance the study of the history of the ancient near east. I'm not sure that this is what you were looking for or expecting however.

This is my first post to the forums. Nice to meet you all.

---------------------------------
Biblical gematria uses the following number set:
[1] א Aleph A = 1, ב Beth B = 2, ג Gimel G = 3, ש Shin Sh = 3, ד Daleth D = 4, ת Tav Th = 4,
ה Heh H,E = 5, ו Vav U,V,W = 6, ז Zayin Z = 7, ח Cheth Ch,C = 8, ט Teth T = 9,
י Yod I,J,Y = 10, כ,ך Kaph K = 20, ל Lamed L = 30, מ,ם Mem M = 40, נ,ן Nun N = 50,
ס Samekh S,X = 60, ע Ayin O = 70, פ,ף Peh Ph,P = 80, צ,ץ Tsade Ts = 90, ק Qoph Q = 100, ר Resh R = 200.

The Shematria gematria calculator uses this method (available by the link).

I understand that one has a good knowledge of "Gematria". will you please like to address my question put forward vide my post #113 .

Regards

 

[sealchan]

Hi All,

I was a very active user of these forums.
I have taken some time (A few month) to do some studying.
I've been studying quite a lot and still am.

I have many reasons to assume god (Any of them) doesn't exist. Actually.. the correct statement will be I have very little reasons to believe god exists.

But as an atheist from the one hand, and a very curious person from the other, i invest many many hours studying and "investigating" many religious ideas and concepts.

I am a jew, and grew up in a Jewish way of life. Not a religious jew, but Jewish by birth.
I study (in the past and present) the Jewish religion in a very deep and detailed manner.
I still have a long way to go and there are literally millions of pages of information I've yet to learn regarding the Jewish belief.

Undoubted, the most complex and elaborated religious "theory" I've ever encountered is the oral Tora and especially Kabbalah.

It is one of the most in depth analysis of EVERY aspect related to our reality ranging from the creation of the universe and to the structure and behavior of living beings.

Although still an atheist, I honestly find the Kabbalah to be an amazingly (in the true sense of the word) complex, deep and detailed view on life as we know from the aspect of materialistic and non materialistic POV.

The most "WOW"ing thing about it as far as i am concerned, is that once you learn the Kabbalah in depth, the similarities between the most recent scientific discoveries and the ideas of the Kabbalah are far more common than you might think.

There are many things that are in contradiction (although after doing some more deep research I find them to be "solved").

I have a very logical mind. I am a very skeptic in the way i respond to things.

Now.. before you jump ahead and ask me ... Well.. if it is so amazing, Isn't it a proof of God? the short answer is no.. far from it!

I will not go into why, as this might be a very very long post ( already is.. i know ).

So what is the challenge?

well, Although i have a broad scientific knowledge, there are many things i don't know.
There is too much to learn and not much time

So my challenge is finding a group of people with a vast knowledge of sciences (preferably atheists [not because i have something against theist scientists, rather because i think someone who treats god only as an idea will be more objective in this case] although if one is open minded and will not be offended of things that might be said, i think it will be a great value) that are willing to take a dive to a very interesting idea of trying and finding a scientific discoveries BASED on the Kabbalah rather then disregarding it as a myth or just another religion.

If in any way I've caused anyone to be offended from my statement that Kabbalah is the most complex and detailed religious doctrine, please accept my apology. this statement is of course based on my own knowledge and what i have come across so far in my short life

Just as an example for the complexity of the Kabbalah, the letter "Alef" (The first [and last] letter of the Hebrew Kabbalah language) it self in the kabbalah can easily fill a 100 pages book of explanations.

really hop[e to find some cooperation as this subject can be a very educating and intriguing thing.

Cheers

How, exactly, would this group go about looking for answers to science in the Kabbalah?

Would you use the Kabbalah to guess at a scientific question and then ask an expert in that science what science had to say about it?

I've used Tarot cards effectively to help myself make a major life decision. I've done a reading for someone else that seemed effective for them. I agree with others who have said that confirmation bias is a risk. IMO Tarot and I Ching which purport to help access future knowledge do so by framing knowledge in a very abstract and intuitive way such that it is ripe for generating meaningful pattern under a wide range of applications.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Please inform us the basis of "Gimatrya". Who fixed the mathematical value of (alphabetical) characters in different languages and on what basis? And how it is termed scientific? Also, is there an scientific article published in a Scientific Journal of repute? If yes, please give a reference, please.

Regards

Great questions. Thanks. I haven't attempted to publish in a Journal. I may do so in the future, but I'd rather the pleasure of that belonged to someone in the academic community who would personally benefit from that type of time consuming and extremely demanding labour. As of now I have written a book about the subject called "Chariot", and I have a blog with the Times of Israel. I have coded a gematria calculator (Shematria.com) to make the research easier, but this isn't my only project. I have invented a dual logographic and alphabetical writing script (Galay) and developing apps for that is important to me too.

The earliest alphabet to be discovered dates prior to 1550 BCE, and according to Professor Douglas Petrovich, Hebrew is the language of this Proto-Consonantal Script. Some of his colleagues disagree with this, and say that there is not enough differentiation in the language and culture between Jewish and Canaanite populations at this time to distinguish the use of Hebrew in the writing script. It is my theory that the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet were a distinct number set within the PCS, and that these signs were mapped to the Seven Palaces.

Gematria, Merkabah and the Birth of the Alephbet!

Unfortunately, if there were a single inventor of the alphabet, we do not know their name or anything about their history, and the same is true for the inventors of the various writing scripts. Ultimately however, since YHVH is a notariqon for the Seven Palaces, I would place the credit at the door of the Israelites rather than the Canaanites.

 

[paarsurrey]

Great questions. Thanks. I haven't attempted to publish in a Journal. I may do so in the future, but I'd rather the pleasure of that belonged to someone in the academic community who would personally benefit from that type of time consuming and extremely demanding labour. As of now I have written a book about the subject called "Chariot", and I have a blog with the Times of Israel. I have coded a gematria calculator (Shematria.com) to make the research easier, but this isn't my only project. I have invented a dual logographic and alphabetical writing script (Galay) and developing apps for that is important to me too.

The earliest alphabet to be discovered dates prior to 1550 BCE, and according to Professor Douglas Petrovich, Hebrew is the language of this Proto-Consonantal Script. Some of his colleagues disagree with this, and say that there is not enough differentiation in the language and culture between Jewish and Canaanite populations at this time to distinguish the use of Hebrew in the writing script. It is my theory that the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet were a distinct number set within the PCS, and that these signs were mapped to the Seven Palaces.

Gematria, Merkabah and the Birth of the Alephbet!

Unfortunately, if there were a single inventor of the alphabet, we do not know their name or anything about their history, and the same is true for the inventors of the various writing scripts. Ultimately however, since YHVH is a notariqon for the Seven Palaces, I would place the credit at the door of the Israelites rather than the Canaanites.

Isn't it mythical, rather than science, please?
Just my thoughts, please don't mind.
I have seen many people doing calculation, but with no exact answers.
The Indian people's ancient language since the migrated to India was Sanskrit, they have also such numbers allocated to the letters (Gematria):
The Theosophist
- Volume 9 - Page 312
Right, please?

Regards

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Isn't it mythical, rather than science, please?
Just my thoughts, please don't mind.
I have seen many people doing calculation, but with no exact answers.
The Indian people's ancient language since the migrated to India was Sanskrit, they have also such numbers allocated to the letters (Gematria):
The Theosophist
- Volume 9 - Page 312
Right, please?

Regards

Its both. In ancient times there was not this strict division in the minds of people between natural science and mysticism. The mysticism is that each letter created a quality of the world. The early science is astronomy and early math of the more practical kind. They were definitely interested in finding the value of Pi.

 

[paarsurrey]

Its both. In ancient times there was not this strict division in the minds of people between natural science and mysticism. The mysticism is that each letter created a quality of the world. The early science is astronomy and early math of the more practical kind. They were definitely interested in finding the value of Pi.

But,how the mysticism determines the value of each letter creating a quality of the word? I visited one's blog to know the things. Maybe I am asking too much, but my intention is to understand the matter.
Regards

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

But,how the mysticism determines the value of each letter creating a quality of the word? I visited one's blog to know the things. Maybe I am asking too much, but my intention is to understand the matter.
Regards

Well the mysticism emerges from observations of the natural cycles of the world. Look at the Letter Beth (2) at the top of the diagram of the Seven Palaces. That probably corresponded to the pole star at one time. The Seventh Palace was the home of EL , and the first thing he did from there is make the light and the darkness, and so the value of the 2 splits and creates the two Palaces of the Aleph (1) at either side. This is why the Rabbi's say "Aleph is never less than Beth".

In the center is the Palace of the Resh (200), for the Sun, which is the value of 2 magnified a hundred times. The palaces of the Daleth (4) are the doors of Life and Death. New souls or reincarnating souls enter the world from the Palace on the left and exit to the Palace on the right. Lastly, the Heh (5) represents the gate intersecting the world on the spot where the Temple would be.

Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?