An Omnipotent & Omniscient God Cannot Exist

[74x12]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

Actually if you're omnipotent then you're all powerful; so there is nothing you can't do ... that means you are by necessity omniscient because if you want to know everything; then you just instantly do.

Regardless, I believe your premise is wrong anyway. God is omnipotent because whatever power does exist belongs to God. So imaginary power doesn't exist. I would include the "power" to make himself wrong about something in that also.

As for omniscient and omnipotence. I believe these are in relation to His creation and I wouldn't extend them beyond that limitation because we don't know that. We can only surmise. So within the universe which is God's creation then we know God knows everything going on there and He can do anything He wants there in. Meaning, He upholds all things with His infinite mind and if He were to somehow turn away then it would all cease to exist as if waking from a dream. I kept that really basic on purpose and there is likely more to it than just that.

 

[QuestioningMind]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. IF god can do anything he wants THEN there would be nothing in the future that god that would want to do that he hasn't. Your saying that god can't do what god doesn't want to do, but I don't see how that doesn't make him omnipotent, since by the definition you gave omnipotence is the ability to do anything he WANTS, not the ability to do things he does NOT want. .

 

[Skwim]

I'm saying an omnipotent being could change history at will. maybe change it several times and you'd be none the wiser. You'd assume the history you know to be the only history to have existed. You memory of history could be altered as well by such a being. Tomorrow history could be different than what it is today and you'd be thinking it had always been that way.

But the issue isn't about what I know or could know, but what an omniscient being (god) knows. If an omnipotent god changed anything, being omniscient he would be aware he would be making that change.

I'm not trying to prove such a being exists. Only taking to what I see as a logical conclusion. An omnipotent being could change whatever they wanted and still have you thinking it was all consistent. You could cease to exist a billion times and be recreated with a memory of a different past each time.

Again, this isn't about what I know, but what an omniscient god knows.

Remember, this all started with YOU saying:

"Being omniscient only IMO means knowing everything that exists. How could one have knowledge of something that doesn't exist?
Until the future becomes the present, it doesn't exist." in post #3​

.

 

[Nakosis]

But the issue isn't about what I know or could know, but what an omniscient being (god) knows. If an omnipotent god changed anything, being omniscient he would be aware he would be making that change.


Again, this isn't about what I know, but what an omniscient god knows.

Remember, this all started with YOU saying:

"Being omniscient only IMO means knowing everything that exists. How could one have knowledge of something that doesn't exist?
Until the future becomes the present, it doesn't exist." in post #3​

.

Right, going back to the OP God wouldn't have to know about any future that had not yet been created.

 

[night912]

So why bother commenting? Not exactly your area of expertise is it?

It doesn't take an expert to see that you put limitations on your god and yet, you still wondered why people put limitations on god.

What a load of complete codswallop.

Apparently it worked and your memory have returned and realize it.

I put no limitations on my God.....but simply relayed what limits he places on himself for the reasons he states...if you have a problem with that, take it up with him....

Don't believe in a god therefore I don't have a problem with god. The problem is with what you said. Why do you think I'm having this conversation with you? I would I want to go discuss the problem about what you said when I'm already having the discussion with you here. And there's no need to be an expert to see that you put limitations on your god. He's not the one telling us about him, you're the one that's telling us about your god. So unless if you yourself are god and you are telling us about your limitations, you are putting limitations on your god.

Deny and make excuses all you want but proof is in your writing. I don't need to convince you into believing that you were wrong, I just wanted to point it out so you would see it. It's up to you if you want to examine your own thoughts on your beliefs. Nobody is perfect, there's no need be ashame for being wrong.

 

[night912]

I'd assume an omnipotent God could change the past at will. So yes any actual past could cease to exist.

Maybe since God is timeless, only the present exists. A present which changes at will without a necessary connection to any past or future.

How can something be change or erase if it doesn't exist?

 

[McBell]

Humankind are reaping what they sowed. We are living the consequences of our own choices.

I agree completely.

It is as though your god does not even exist

 

[Fool]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

the problem with your argument is simple, there is no future/past in omnipresent.

So it is all knowing being all present in NOW

 

[Nakosis]

How can something be change or erase if it doesn't exist?

I don't know if this answers your question but the ideal of God would be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. The only way such a being could exist IMO would be if the only thing that was real was God. Everything other than God is a dream/illusion.

Like when you dream. What exists in the dream only "exists" during the experience of it, while you're actually dreaming. It's only when you wake that you realize none of it existed. So you're right, there is nothing to change. It's just another dream which has no more actual existence than the previous dream.

In this sense the lucid dreamer is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the dream. In this "reality" we experience, God is present but not awake. If God should ever wake none of this would ever have had anymore existence than the dream you had last night which you may not even remember.

 

[Deeje]

I agree completely.

It is as though your god does not even exist

Or he is standing back and watching what he knew would be the inevitable outcome of their choices. Apparently, humans cannot be told.....they too often choose to learn the hard way, by bad experiences.....but they didn't have to, that was the point.

It was simple really...."obey God and live....disobey God and die". Not rocket science is it?

 

[Deeje]

Deny and make excuses all you want but proof is in your writing.

What proof is in your writing? LOL Don't answer that.....

 

[Baroodi]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

This is against your challenge. Tobe omnipotent you need to be omniscient. This amazing universe is run on scientific rules. Without knowledge no mechanic can fix a simple car glitch.

 

[Trailblazer]

yes
yes

He can also create a rock so heavy he cannot lift and then lift said rock whenever he likes.

Not to mention his collection of squared circles and oval triangles.

God can do anything He chooses to do because God is omnipotent, but God never does what God does not choose to do because God is omnipotent.....

Some atheists totally miss that.
They think God is omnipotent means God will do anything I want Him to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

New If God is omnipotent he can do anything he wants including being omniscient.

God is by nature omniscient. God does not have to do anything to be what He is.

 

[atanu]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

Think of God as a movie director whose one movie is your world. The director is not limited by that one movie and neither he is ever altered by happenings in his movies.

The above is offered as only an example of how our logical mind may be constrained by our limited view of reality.

...

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll go with God is omniscient.

You do not have to choose, God is both.

 

[YoursTrue]

Perhaps a jog through memory lane can help jog that memory of yours so you can understand.

This is just a small portion of your religious beliefs.


So you've put limitations on your own god. I don't believe that a god exist and don't know what a god is like. I only respond and object to your interpretation of a god and how you present it. It's not my fault that you don't understand yourself and your own beliefs. I'm simply relaying what you said back at you.

God sets His will as he desires. That he can change his mind if he wants to is clear. In contrast to that, a person has free will but can't do everything he wants to.

 

[YoursTrue]

God can do anything He chooses to do because God is omnipotent, but God never does what God does not choose to do because God is omnipotent.....

Some atheists totally miss that.
They think God is omnipotent means God will do anything I want Him to do.

He let some know in the record of the Bible that is not how it works. Jesus, for instance, prayed, "Let YOUR will be done." He didn't say "Let MY will be done." There were other instances too. It's all very interesting.

 

[YoursTrue]

Perhaps a jog through memory lane can help jog that memory of yours so you can understand.

This is just a small portion of your religious beliefs.


So you've put limitations on your own god. I don't believe that a god exist and don't know what a god is like. I only respond and object to your interpretation of a god and how you present it. It's not my fault that you don't understand yourself and your own beliefs. I'm simply relaying what you said back at you.

Most of us agree we have not seen God. Even though you don't believe in God, have you ever tried praying and asking Him to let you know if He exists?

 

[Trailblazer]

God sets His will as he desires. That he can change his mind if he wants to is clear. In contrast to that, a person has free will but can't do everything he wants to

God does not actually change His Mind, because as an omniscient Being, God knew what He would do all along.