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"an open letter to taoists"
- Thread starter d.
- Start date
HopefulNikki
Active Member
This guy could probably learn something from Jesus: "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:13
Maybe some things are spoken in generalized ways
, or has he never read where the Bible proclaims, "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9If no one has ever seen or heard about the future that the Christian god has prepared, then why do Christians constantly go on and on about future prophetic events, future heaven and hell after death, etc, as though they know with perfect accuracy exactly what's going to happen to all of us, even though their own hold book says otherwise?
Or maybe, some parts of literautre are generalized and not absolute
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9
If God's ways and thoughts are truly so much higher than man's, then how are the words and actions of God so often expressed in the Bible?
[/FONT]"Vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, non-action--this is the level of Heaven and Earth, and the perfection of the Tao" [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif][SIZE=-1](Max Mueller, Sacred Books of the East, London: Krishna Press)[/SIZE].[/FONT]
"Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and shepp, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:3
These actions could just as easily describe some hideous raid by Atilla the Hun as he ransacked village after village. His nickname could be King Saul, following the commandament of the perfect, loving God. But Eastern religions advise us to be peaceful with ourselves and the world around us.
Well no duh, they're different religions.
[/FONT]
And as I just quoted, the Bible advances, among other things, the idea that it's acceptable to destroy whole cities, down to the most innocent infant. Rulers have considered such advice to constitute a workable plan or a viable option, but generally it doesn't work out for their life or reputation in the long run.
"Once I, Chuang Chou, dreamed that I was a butterfly. Suddenly I awoke, and there I was, visibly Chou. I do not know whether it was Chou dreaming that he was a butterfly or the butterfly dreaming it was Chou" [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif][SIZE=-1](Chuang-Tzu, disciple of Lao-Tzu, 4th century B.C.)[/SIZE].
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
Since no one has ever seen the "third heaven," much less recorded such a sighting or out of body experience, it is probably safe to assume that you were just day-dreaming.
[/FONT]
Has it ever occurred to you that Christianity itself may be a yin of misguided thinking, in need to deliverance from the yang of reason?YIN-YANG, the Tao concept of many elements that are contrary to one another, i.e. male/female, positive/negative, light/darkness, active/passive, and life/death. Yin is represented by the darker shape and broken lines. Yang is represented by the lighter shape and solid lines.
Has it ever occurred to you that Taoism itself may be a yin of misguided thinking, in need of deliverance from the 'yang' of truth?
Could it be that the Tao is the answer for Christians?
This, of course, rests on the assumption that all Taoists actually worship "the Mother of all things," which many of them don't. But nice try. [/FONT]
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
Sure, let's refute Taoism, and not even try to read the Tao te Ching while we're at it (and, let's not spell it correctly for good measure). That will make for such a great argument, nobody will be able to disagree!
Is there a Christian out there who can explain to me why such refutations of other religions is necessary? Can Christians not get on with thier lives and lead a happy existance without having to prove to themselves that thier religion is better or more right? Does it not strike anyone as strange that there are very very few religions out there that seek to do this? Does that mean that Christianity is the religion for the insecure?
Is there a Christian out there who can explain to me why such refutations of other religions is necessary? Can Christians not get on with thier lives and lead a happy existance without having to prove to themselves that thier religion is better or more right? Does it not strike anyone as strange that there are very very few religions out there that seek to do this? Does that mean that Christianity is the religion for the insecure?
lamplighter
Almighty Tallest
I believe the most vocal christians trying to denounce others beliefs, are the ones most insecure about there own faith.
Jaymes
The cake is a lie
"Tao" for inaction? :biglaugh: I wonder if the author of this realizes just how silly it sounds to call the Chinese language "way".
They'd better tell that to the Chinese emperors that had advisors who extensively studied Taoist ideas and philosophies.
I must admit, though... this thing gave me quite a giggle. A+ for effort!
Mathematician
Reason, and reason again
Don't people realize "essays" like this push the audience further away from what the authors want?
Actually, I think the author is more interested in denouncing another system of belief rather than trying to save us. :sarcastic
Actually, I think the author is more interested in denouncing another system of belief rather than trying to save us. :sarcastic
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
The argument that following the Tao equals inaction (as defined by doing nothing, like the author's cat) is one of the most common misinterpretations of Taoism.
It's not about doing nothing, it's about doing everything according to the Tao - following the course of the river, not fighting against it.
At least, that's my interpretation.
It's not about doing nothing, it's about doing everything according to the Tao - following the course of the river, not fighting against it.
At least, that's my interpretation.
ChrisP
Veteran Member
I used to think this too... my mind has changed. Tao has as much to do with inaction or action, as it does with understanding and awareness.Guitar's Cry said:
In fact tao has everything to do with nothing, and vice versa.
This sounds fricking mystical but it's not. Trust me. I'm just not the sort for that sorta stuff
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Regarding doing nothing someone said something to me the other day that struck me as rather interesting: -ChrisP said:I used to think this too... my mind has changed. Tao has as much to do with inaction or action, as it does with understanding and awareness.
In fact tao has everything to do with nothing, and vice versa.
This sounds fricking mystical but it's not. Trust me. I'm just not the sort for that sorta stuff
"If you want to get a glimpse of why holding specific beliefs is not important to Taoism spend 3 days without speaking, listening, reading, writing or trying to think about those things. Go without music and moving images too. I guarantee you'll understand things a little differently afterwards."
Mathematician
Reason, and reason again
That's actually an interesting thought. I might try it when I don't have classes.
PureX
Veteran Member
On the subject of "non-action":
- from the Tao te Ching
In pursuit of knowledge,
every day something is added.
In the practice of the Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.
True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.
It can't be gained by interfering.
The Master gives himself up
to whatever the moment brings.
He knows that he is going to die,
and he has nothing left to hold on to:
no illusions in his mind,
no resistances in his body.
He doesn't think about his actions;
they flow from the core of his being.
He holds nothing back from life;
therefore he is ready for death,
as a man is ready for sleep
after a good day's work.
Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.
The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things.
every day something is added.
In the practice of the Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.
True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.
It can't be gained by interfering.
The Master gives himself up
to whatever the moment brings.
He knows that he is going to die,
and he has nothing left to hold on to:
no illusions in his mind,
no resistances in his body.
He doesn't think about his actions;
they flow from the core of his being.
He holds nothing back from life;
therefore he is ready for death,
as a man is ready for sleep
after a good day's work.
Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.
The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things.
- from the Tao te Ching
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Yeah I thought so. Although I'm meant to be ultra-busy I think I'm gonna spare 3 days between Christmas and New Year for this. Its been a while since I've done anything like that.GeneCosta said:
And hey ChrisP it is like that, yeh.
In fact I think it would be a good thing to recommend to anyone who is interested in meditation but is getting upset by their lack of concentration.
PureX
Veteran Member
I found a great quote from Thomas Merton that helps define "non-action":
"Yet it is in this loneliness that the deepest activities begin. It is here that you discover act without motion, labor that is profound repose, vision in obscurity, and, beyond all desire, a fulfillment whose limits extend to infinity."
"Yet it is in this loneliness that the deepest activities begin. It is here that you discover act without motion, labor that is profound repose, vision in obscurity, and, beyond all desire, a fulfillment whose limits extend to infinity."
Mathematician
Reason, and reason again
Good posts, PureX. I especially like this part of the Tao te Ching.
I think this clearly states "non-action" doesn't mean just sitting around all day and doing absolutely nothing, as the stereotype goes.
I think this clearly states "non-action" doesn't mean just sitting around all day and doing absolutely nothing, as the stereotype goes.
cardw
Member
I have enjoyed Stephen Mitchell's English translation of the Tao te Ching. This may or may not be related to the Tao, but I read the first part of A Course in Miracles and one of the first exercises was to go through the day and look at each thing you saw or experienced and say to yourself, "That means absolutely nothing."
When I did it I found out through my reaction what I was holding on to and what I found to be emotionally important to me. I also became aware of how meaning for different things in my life was largely made up.
It was a new awareness for me and when I read the Tao to Ching there was a feeling of affirmation and connection with that exercise. There was also a reordering of priority that seemed to simply happen without as much self consciousness about the process.
When I did it I found out through my reaction what I was holding on to and what I found to be emotionally important to me. I also became aware of how meaning for different things in my life was largely made up.
It was a new awareness for me and when I read the Tao to Ching there was a feeling of affirmation and connection with that exercise. There was also a reordering of priority that seemed to simply happen without as much self consciousness about the process.