Ancient Beliefs vs. Modern Science

[Skeptisch]

What leads people to religion?

the placebo effect

 

[papi_rico1981]

the placebo effect

Good point.

 

[Skwim]

If you ask a devout Christian if prayer works they will say yes.

If you ask a tribal hunter if their pre-hunt rituals actually work they would look at you like you're an idiot... why do it if it doesn't work?

Or the guy who always wears his lucky tie on a date or interview or whatever.

Now we both know that empirically none of these has any actual influence other than mental conditioning.... but the people who do them genuinely believe that they work.

And that's why I'm going to assume you simply misspoke when you said

"Religion offers quite a lot more than just comfort....

It also provides: A way to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor."
​

instead of something like:

It also provides: A sense of being able to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor.
​

 

[Reverend Richard]

Many of modern folks tend to see the mythology of religion as an obsolete way of looking at the world. We tend to interpret myths as some type primitive counterpart of modern science. That in a more rational reasonable world, all mythology would be rejected.

To extend this idea, mythology would seem to be a very primitive form of a theory. In the absence of scientific knowledge, primitive man had to come up with an explanation (a theory?) for what causes natural disasters such as volcanoes, floods, famines, and disease. "God" (or gods) seems like a good way to explain punishment (the floods & famines), or in the opposite case, blessings (which would explain good weather and a plentiful harvest of crops).

However, scientific theories are subject to proof and verification by testing, publication of peer reviews, and hard research. Mythology (read religion) is not subject to the same rigorous standards, and in fact is considered heresy by most fundamentalists. This might partially explain why there is such resistance to the theory of evolution since it (generally) removes God from the equation. Creationism would seem to be a compromise by some conservative Christians to co-opt science, but still keep God as the prime mover.

 

[painted wolf]

And that's why I'm going to assume you simply misspoke when you said

"Religion offers quite a lot more than just comfort....

It also provides: A way to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor."
​

instead of something like:

It also provides: A sense of being able to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor.
​

I would say the difference is kind of pedantic. But if that's how you want to say it that's fine with me.

Religions don't pitch it as simply the "sense of" influence but as actual influence.

wa:do

 

[Looncall]

I would say the difference is kind of pedantic. But if that's how you want to say it that's fine with me.

Religions don't pitch it as simply the "sense of" influence but as actual influence.

wa:do

That's an important observation. It is what one would expect of a scam.

 

[fallingblood]

But limits are "good".

Science used methodology in order to help us uncover the mystery (of any given phenomenon) that we seek to explain, through observation, through repeated (and independent) testings and through empirical evidences, that are far more objective than faith and belief.

Even though, science can't explain everything, nor can religion. There are actually far more things that religions can't explain than science.

None of the scriptures, including the bible, thoroughly and correctly explain any natural phenomenon. It only give often vague or sketchy description that any poet of their time could describe. Saying the sun rise in the east and set in the west, is hardly explanation of a genius.

In the Book of Job, God's ranting of what He can do that Job can't do in Job 38 to 40, sounds like ridiculous superstition.

I agree that limits are good. The problem is that some do not understand that there are limits, and thus expand science beyond what its purpose.

Religion also has its limits. One of the limits is that it is not science, and should not be expanded beyond it's limits. Meaning, religion should not be dealing with science. Thus, if it doesn't explain certain ideas, that's only logical as religion has it's limits.

There is a lot that science simply can't explain though because of the limits. Science does not tell us what is moral or immoral, as science is amoral. Yet, morality is an important question. Religion can give answers to that, as can other philosophical ideas. My point is that each have their place, and should not be expanded beyond those places.

You're right, the meaning of life cannot explain through science. It is more philosophical question or even a religious question.

However, none of religious scriptures that I have encounter give us a satisfactory answer. They are often vague, conflicting (within its own religion or conflicting with others, outside religions).

I think there is more than one answer to the "meaning of life". There is a whole bunch of them - some concern with the person's inner self, others concern with the people they already know or people they will meet, and others still about what sort of life one would like to live or lead. The meaning of life, would only have meaning specifically for him or her, and the meaning would be different for everyone else.

I am being vague, because everyone is different, so I can't tell what give your life meaning, because it would be the same as mine or other people. Like I said, the meaning of life question falls in the realm of philosophy.

Religious scripture is not the only thing dictating what a religion follows though. Yes, often scripture only gets one so far. That is why in most religions, there is also a tradition of interpretation, as well as a freedom to continue evolving that religion. Scripture is often just a starting point, or a foundation.

I agree though that there are probably more than one answer to the question of the meaning of life. Science though simply does not have the ability to determine what those answers are, and neither should it. That doesn't mean science is useless, but that it has its place.

And that is where the main fault of the OP comes into play, as it makes religion and science as opponents, battling over the same questions. However, science and religion are not opponents, as they deal with different questions and areas. The problem only begins when one wants to expand either religion or science beyond their purpose.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What leads people to religion? I am not debating the existence of a god, but rather, what makes someone feel the need to believe in such a god, ...

Just an observation.

That's not an observation. It's a biased presupposition.

 

[painted wolf]

That's an important observation. It is what one would expect of a scam.

And to just about any aspect of our civilization.

One could make similar arguments regarding politics and justice.

wa:do

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Religion, in some form or fashion, has been around since the dawn of mankind. Animalism, shamanism, sun gods, etc. Ancient humans did not have the knowledge or technology to understand various sciences. When in doubt, beliefs turned to the supernatural or divine.

In the modern world, we are exploring space, have a greater understanding of various sciences, able to view astral bodies beyond our solar system, and can readily explain most phenomenon described by ancient religions. This leads me to a question that I ponder about from time to time:

What leads people to religion? I am not debating the existence of a god, but rather, what makes someone feel the need to believe in such a god, especially in this modern age? It seems to me that people spend more time disagreeing between various religions, than they do actually following what those religions supposedly teach.

Just an observation.

Coming from my position as a Biblical Christian it is an innate characteristic explaind by a passage in romans that says everything created know it's creator.

 

[Reverend Richard]

.........What leads people to religion? I am not debating the existence of a god, but rather, what makes someone feel the need to believe in such a god, especially in this modern age?

I wonder if people would actually feel the need to believe in God, if there weren't dozens of competing religions telling us we need to. Not only that, but they also tell us we need to believe in the correct God!

Some speculate that man comes pre-programmed for belief, but I don't know of a reliable method to prove that, or at least test the hypothesis.

 

[fantome profane]

Coming from my position as a Biblical Christian it is an innate characteristic explaind by a passage in romans that says everything created know it's creator.

I guess that would indicate that you were created, and I was not.

 

[painted wolf]

I wonder if people would actually feel the need to believe in God, if there weren't dozens of competing religions telling us we need to. Not only that, but they also tell us we need to believe in the correct God!

Seeing as ritualistic and arguably religious behaviors date back to the paleolithic, even in other hominid species... I would say that the likelyhood is yes.

Most human traits/behavior exists on a spectrum of expression. It's almost certain that "religious" behavior is a combination of genetics and environment.

Some speculate that man comes pre-programmed for belief, but I don't know of a reliable method to prove that, or at least test the hypothesis.

Actually there is quite a lot of interesting research into that question.

Not just in how faith works in the brain but in qualitative and quantitative variation between people of faith and people without faith.

wa:do

 

[Alceste]

And that's why I'm going to assume you simply misspoke when you said

"Religion offers quite a lot more than just comfort....

It also provides: A way to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor."
​

instead of something like:

It also provides: A sense of being able to influence the forces of the universe in ones favor.
​

I got that she was speaking in a subjective sense. I don't think people who want "a sense" of influencing the world pray or do magic. I have experienced the sense of influence myself, and it is pretty compelling.

It may be quite healthy to externalize certain parts of the ego. When we are feeling like things are going amazingly well for us in comparison to our neighbors, it's more sociable to feel blessed than superior. And when things are going badly it may be more comfortable to frame it as a test of your faith than a personal failure.

Every day we tell ourselves stories to make sense of the chaos we live in. Things like throwing a coin in a wishing fountain is not our only form of dubious storytelling. Our entire society is built around the fiction that perpetual, exponential economic growth is a possibility. That story is far more destructive than any other by a huge margin. We are destroying the whole world with it.

I guess that would indicate that you were created, and I was not.

Nor me.

 

[Warren Clark]

Religion, in some form or fashion, has been around since the dawn of mankind. Animalism, shamanism, sun gods, etc. Ancient humans did not have the knowledge or technology to understand various sciences. When in doubt, beliefs turned to the supernatural or divine.

In the modern world, we are exploring space, have a greater understanding of various sciences, able to view astral bodies beyond our solar system, and can readily explain most phenomenon described by ancient religions. This leads me to a question that I ponder about from time to time:

What leads people to religion? I am not debating the existence of a god, but rather, what makes someone feel the need to believe in such a god, especially in this modern age? It seems to me that people spend more time disagreeing between various religions, than they do actually following what those religions supposedly teach.

Just an observation.

So true... just got done saying something similar in another thread =P

 

[Warren Clark]

Seeing as ritualistic and arguably religious behaviors date back to the paleolithic, even in other hominid species... I would say that the likelyhood is yes.

Most human traits/behavior exists on a spectrum of expression. It's almost certain that "religious" behavior is a combination of genetics and environment.


Actually there is quite a lot of interesting research into that question.

Not just in how faith works in the brain but in qualitative and quantitative variation between people of faith and people without faith.

wa:do

Would you happen to have some links to some of this research i find this interesting

 

[painted wolf]

Would you happen to have some links to some of this research i find this interesting

I'd suggest combing the archives of this blog: Epiphenom

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

I wonder if people would actually feel the need to believe in God, if there weren't dozens of competing religions telling us we need to. Not only that, but they also tell us we need to believe in the correct God!

Some speculate that man comes pre-programmed for belief, but I don't know of a reliable method to prove that, or at least test the hypothesis.

I believe it is a survival instinct gone haywire.

We have to have excellent imaginations, to guess that a lion or other predator may be laying in wait in high grass. The left or right path may be a deadly choice if we souldnt imagine which one was the safest.

That kind of imagination can also use our instincts of parental love, and create a mythical parental figure who loves us. Its very very natural.



Its funny children have to reach about 7-8 before they can tie certain aspects of traits, tieing natural actions to a invisible entity. They had a show on natgeo last night with morgan freeman narrating, where they were scientifically testing our nature and belief of god.

 

[Walkntune]

Religion, in some form or fashion, has been around since the dawn of mankind. Animalism, shamanism, sun gods, etc. Ancient humans did not have the knowledge or technology to understand various sciences. When in doubt, beliefs turned to the supernatural or divine.

In the modern world, we are exploring space, have a greater understanding of various sciences, able to view astral bodies beyond our solar system, and can readily explain most phenomenon described by ancient religions. This leads me to a question that I ponder about from time to time:

What leads people to religion? I am not debating the existence of a god, but rather, what makes someone feel the need to believe in such a god, especially in this modern age? It seems to me that people spend more time disagreeing between various religions, than they do actually following what those religions supposedly teach.

Just an observation.

Its love that supercedes mans knowledge of good and evil and empty vain attempts in his self efforts to fill the void in his soul.Modern humans are so successful in all of the sciences and can explore outer space and do modern marvels yet allow many in the world to starve when there is plenty of resources to go around.All of the knowledge is vain and foolish without love.This knowledge you boast of has become the greatest threat to the existance of man and the survival of the planet with our weapons of mass destruction.. As the bible states there is a way in man that seems right but in the end leads to death and destruction.

 

[painted wolf]

I believe it is a survival instinct gone haywire.

We have to have excellent imaginations, to guess that a lion or other predator may be laying in wait in high grass. The left or right path may be a deadly choice if we souldnt imagine which one was the safest.

That kind of imagination can also use our instincts of parental love, and create a mythical parental figure who loves us. Its very very natural.



Its funny children have to reach about 7-8 before they can tie certain aspects of traits, tieing natural actions to a invisible entity. They had a show on natgeo last night with morgan freeman narrating, where they were scientifically testing our nature and belief of god.

perhaps in part... but I think it's more likely that it has to do with our powers of empathy and our ability to project a sense of mind/agency onto others.

This would also match well with what you saw in natgeo.

wa:do