Ancient Civilizations

[Subduction Zone]

One man sees a "robbers tunnel" another sees ancient archaeologist tunnels.

People have believed these were tombs and known Egyptian kings were buried with gold for a very long time. Tunnels do not prove they were looted of anything. The Caliphate Al Mamuun was the first man in the Great Pyramid and reported there was no loot and no king. Other sealed sarcophagi have been opened and found empty. No forensic testing has ever been performed on any great pyramid.

But there's still no direct evidence any great pyramid was a tomb.

And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You appear to have none. Where there is evidence for grave robbers.

Find valid sources if you want to believed by any person that is not a follower of woo woo.

 

[siti]

I have a theory about what's right but that's irrelevant...I believe we all have it wrong and can't see it[...Neither science nor religion have the answers and neither are likely to any time soon on this dead end path....I'm not rejecting science or religion but am saying they are both misinterpreted

OK - so what is the correct interpretation then?

...the only tools we have are reason and facts.

Egg zackly! Science uncovers facts - doesn't it? And then we reason on those facts and reach a set of rational beliefs about the world...and the facts - as far as I can tell - are that the earth is very old - much older than some earlier religious traditions (not based on facts) may have led us to believe - yes? And there was an ancient civilization in Egypt that built enormous pyramids for some purpose about 4,000 years or so ago. Yes? And although historians may argue about the interpretation of dates discovered by radiocarbon dating (for example), if we understand the natural limitations of the technique, the results it gives are reliable. Yes? I'm still not seeing the great issue for humanity as a whole here. The average joe blogs will not change anything about his life when it is revealed that the pyramids were not tombs but something else or that they were actually built 4400 years ago rather 4000 years ago. I just don't see how that matters except to an egyptologist.

The implications of just the error in the time-line are very far reaching.

Are they? How so?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Watchtower is an apologist site on meth and sherm.

 

[Shad]

**mod edit**

Is it an accusation when I plug the exact citation word for word into a search and come up with apologist site after apologist site. All while I am reading the real article which is about one type of method using a specific set of instruments. How dare I make a valid conclusion!

Watchtower is an apologist site...You just proved evidence of my very claim. You used 1. an apologist site and 2. didn't read the source itself. What are you complaining about exactly? That you didn't know what an apologist is?

Oh look...

Science (August 28, 1981, p. 1003) reports that a skeleton showing an age of 70,000 years by amino acid racemization gave only 8,300 or 9,000 years by at DuckDuckGo

 

[sooda]

Civilizations as listed and described in sooda’s quoted article, points to periods of urbanization, hence city-states, cities, towns, where population shifted from rural villages and rural cultures to that of urban sites, such as towns and cities.

Urbanization and civilization required even greater cooperation than that of village-leveled farming cultures (Neolithic cultures and industries) or the older hunters-and-gatherers cultures (Palaeolithic cultures and industries).

Another factor in civilisation is trade. Objects made, goods, such as pottery, were often exported and imported, give indication of the levels of civilisation.

What you need to understand that human culture have longer history before civilization “happened”, so they predated metallurgy industry and predated writings.

And since writings didn’t exist in Neolithic period (10,000 - 4000 BCE), and they were scarce in the Chalcolithic period (4000 - 3150 BCE), writings became more abundant in the Bronze Age, and even more so Iron Age, they are more often than not, not writing history. Which is why archaeology is so important, when it come to learning about history before writings.

Example of the earliest writings were discovered in Uruk, which you may know as Erech (Genesis 10), as one of the cities SUPPOSEDLY BUILT by mythological Nimrod. It was archaic form of cuneiform, pre-Sumerian cuneiform; the inscriptions were found at one of the Uruk IV temples (c 3400 - c 3300 BCE).

Uruk have far longer history than the Bible (Genesis 10) give credits for, and predated the Bronze Age (which started in the Jemdet Nasr period, 3150 - 2900 BCE) by at least 2000 years. The earliest level or strata of Uruk (Uruk XVIII) was dated to around 5000 BCE, known as the Eridu period or Ubaid period (6500 - 3800 BCE).

The Roman numerals (eg Uruk XVIII, VI, IV, etc), indicated which each level of city's period of existence. Like many cities throughout the Near East, people would built their city on top of the older ones, like Ur, Damascus, Meggido and Jericho.

Jericho for example, have over 20 layers of settlement.

Anyway, back to Uruk. The oldest cuneiform writings were found in Uruk IV, in which later Sumerian cuneiform evolved from. Sumerian civilisation didn't start until around 3150 BCE, which coincide with making bronze tools, hence the start of the Bronze Age.

The Nimrod's story (Genesis 10) is a myth, because Uruk (Erech), Akkad (Accad), Babylon, Nineveh, Calch have all originated in different times in history, which datings have proved. They weren't built by one man.

Likewise, prehistoric Egypt, along with cultures predated the Bronze Age (hence before the 1st dynasty), by at least a thousand year (eg Chalcolithic Egypt, making use of copper tools, have been dated from c 4400 to c 3150 BCE).

One of the oldest cities in Egypt was Nekken. Its earliest Neolithic settlement dated to around about 4500 BCE, but it was around 3500 to 3400 BCE, that Nekken became a major city in Upper Egypt, reaching its zenith in the next two centuries (c 3300 to c 3150 BCE), when it became political capital of Upper Egypt, as well as religious capital, mostly sacred to Horus. Around 3400 BCE, there were as many as 10,000 residents in Nekken.

Nekken have artefacts that demonstrated the Egyptian culture slowly evolve from the older and more primitive culture to the more distinctive “Egyptian” quality that Egypt is known for. The evolution show the continuity of Egypt’s history was developed in stages.

The notion that Egypt didn't exist until after the Flood (see Genesis 10, where Egypt is sometimes translated to Mizraim), is not only wrong, but a myth.

Like Uruk and Nineveh, Egypt is far older than Genesis 10 gives credit for. So it is clear to me, that the author of Genesis have no idea of the history of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

Wow. You do know your stuff cold.. I wish you'd start a thread. There are just so many errors in Genesis that I would have to agree that the author didn't know any history or geography.

 

[sooda]

Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth.

According to recently excavated clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform script, thousands of Sumerians—the first humans to establish systems of writing, agriculture, and government—were working on their sophisticated irrigation systems when the Father of All Creation reached down from the ether and blew the divine spirit of life into their thriving civilization.

continued

https://www.theonion.com/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-world-1819571221

 

[sooda]

I'm merely suggesting that "science" is wrong. I have a theory about what's right but that's irrelevant. What is relevant is that archaeology is founded on what are apparently erroneous assumptions and misconceptions. Assyrian dating is wrong since it's principally founded on Egyptian dating and other dating is founded upon it.

The real problem with interpretation is that they've put the cart before the horse. We already see what we believe and archaeology adopted their beliefs even before they gathered the evidence they are misinterpreting. I can't settle the argument between science and religion and won't take part in it beyond pointing out facts and logic. Frankly I believe we all have it wrong and can't see it because too many of our fundamental beliefs are wrong. Neither science nor religion have the answers and neither are likely to any time soon on this dead end path.

I'm not rejecting science or religion but am saying they are both misinterpreted and the only tools we have are reason and facts.

The implications of just the error in the time-line are very far reaching.

Why is Assyrian history dependent on Egypt?

Assyria - Wikipedia

 

[cladking]

And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You appear to have none. Where there is evidence for grave robbers.

Find valid sources if you want to believed by any person that is not a follower of woo woo.

You now believe that saying that C14 dating might be accurate is an extraordinary claim!!! The Egyptological belief that pyramids contained dead kings and gold is outlandish! That the only "robber's tunnel" recorded was made by someone who wasn't actually a "robber" is irrelevant to all other such tunnels!

You are making the extraordinary claims.

 

[cladking]

OK - so what is the correct interpretation then?

Egg zackly! Science uncovers facts - doesn't it? And then we reason on those facts and reach a set of rational beliefs about the world...and the facts - as far as I can tell - are that the earth is very old - much older than some earlier religious traditions (not based on facts) may have led us to believe - yes? And there was an ancient civilization in Egypt that built enormous pyramids for some purpose about 4,000 years or so ago. Yes? And although historians may argue about the interpretation of dates discovered by radiocarbon dating (for example), if we understand the natural limitations of the technique, the results it gives are reliable. Yes? I'm still not seeing the great issue for humanity as a whole here. The average joe blogs will not change anything about his life when it is revealed that the pyramids were not tombs but something else or that they were actually built 4400 years ago rather 4000 years ago. I just don't see how that matters except to an egyptologist.

Are they? How so?

We know nothing. We think we have all the answers because we see reality in terms of our beliefs. We model reality in our minds and our sense and thought conform to these models. We are all wrong across the board because the models are flawed.

If only the dating were wrong it would still be important but hardly paradigm shattering.

 

[cladking]

Why is Assyrian history dependent on Egypt?

Assyria - Wikipedia

Frankly I don't know. This was merely parroting back something told to me. The source was fairly good but...

I am no expert in anything and I believe experts are often right only in a left handed sort of way. But I still don't dismiss what experts say unless I "know" they are wrong. According to him events and individuals were known to both peoples so Assyrian history was simply correlated to agree with the Egyptian timeline which was apparently based largely on Manetho's kings list. I have little respect for any data coming from this specific source.

If the basis of anthropology and archaeology can be so wrong then a great deal of modern belief can be wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You now believe that saying that C14 dating might be accurate is an extraordinary claim!!! The Egyptological belief that pyramids contained dead kings and gold is outlandish! That the only "robber's tunnel" recorded was made by someone who wasn't actually a "robber" is irrelevant to all other such tunnels!

You are making the extraordinary claims.

What makes you think that it is an extraordinary claim? Your own lack of education does not make a claim extraordinary. And why do you think that they could not have entered the pyramids by other means? I am sure That an Egyptologist could explain how it was done to you.

 

[sooda]

Frankly I don't know. This was merely parroting back something told to me. The source was fairly good but...

I am no expert in anything and I believe experts are often right only in a left handed sort of way. But I still don't dismiss what experts say unless I "know" they are wrong. According to him events and individuals were known to both peoples so Assyrian history was simply correlated to agree with the Egyptian timeline which was apparently based largely on Manetho's kings list. I have little respect for any data coming from this specific source.

If the basis of anthropology and archaeology can be so wrong then a great deal of modern belief can be wrong.

I don't think its true. I also find it helpful to remember that there were other, older cultures in the Middle East (or Fertile Crescent) that predate the Hebrews.. and that Judaism is NOT the only history.

Assyrian history can stand on its own. For instance, Jacob's wife Rachel was the sister of Laban who was from Aram (Syria) They too were Semites like the Arabs.

Syria is a modern nation in West Asia while Assyria was an ancient empire that flourished around 3500 BC.

"Laban is a figure in the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible. He was the brother of Rebekah, who married Isaac and bore Jacob."

 

[Audie]

What makes you think that it is an extraordinary claim? Your own lack of education does not make a claim extraordinary. And why do you think that they could not have entered the pyramids by other means? I am sure That an Egyptologist could explain how it was done to you.

We do have amply supplied and, extraordinary
evidence that pyramids have the power to cloud
people's minds!

 

[Audie]

.

There are obvious flaws in the logic, methodology, and assumptions of Egyptology yet they are not being addressed.

You are confident that you know better than anyone
in the field of Egyptology?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are confident that you know better than anyone
in the field of Egyptology?

Believers in woo woo always know more than the experts.

 

[sooda]

We do have amply supplied and, extraordinary
evidence that pyramids have the power to cloud
people's minds!

We do have amply supplied and, extraordinary
evidence that pyramids have the power to cloud
people's minds!

Then we also have the pyramids of Sudan..

Nubian pyramids - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_pyramids
Nubian pyramids. Nubian pyramids are pyramids that were built by the rulers of the ancient Ku****e kingdoms. The area of the Nile valley known as Nubia, which lies within present day Sudan, was home to three Ku****e kingdoms during antiquity. The first had its capital at Kerma (2600–1520 BC). The second was centered on Napata (1000–300 BC).

 

[sooda]

 

[Audie]

Believers in woo woo always know more than the experts.

Except maybe for those militantly kept on script as
per JW, it seems that no two creationists share
the same set of beliefs. All aside from the big
distincitons like yec / oec / omphalism.

Now, each member of each subset of creoism
really has to believe they know better than
any scientist on earth.

Even the actual scientist who are yecs etc
know they do not have any data to support
their case.

But our industrial grade creationists, most of whom
appear never to have graced the halls of academia at
all with their presence, at all, still know, without
any effort on their part other than fueling up
at a creosite, more than the entire physics
chemistry geology biology etc departments of
every major university on earth.

THEY, the creationists, they can cut n paste more
facts disproving evolution and deep time than
the number of ants on a Tennessee anthill!

I say they, but it can actually only be one of them,
as they never agree on this evidence.

I wonder who is the shining creo ona hill who
is the one who knows better than anyone?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then we also have the pyramids of Sudan..

Nubian pyramids - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_pyramids
Nubian pyramids. Nubian pyramids are pyramids that were built by the rulers of the ancient Ku****e kingdoms. The area of the Nile valley known as Nubia, which lies within present day Sudan, was home to three Ku****e kingdoms during antiquity. The first had its capital at Kerma (2600–1520 BC). The second was centered on Napata (1000–300 BC).

Let's not forget the pyramids of Mesoamerica:

Gravitational potential - Wikipedia

Or this bad boy either:

 

[Audie]

Interesting how they have all been burrowed into in the
same place. It looks a bit like what you find on the seashore,
shells drilled by a snail!