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...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

Bob walks into a vault with an open door. At what point does he lose his free will?

  • He never had freewill

    Votes: 7 70.0%
  • As soon as he walks into the vault.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When the door is closed and welded shut

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When he wants to leave.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When he becomes scared.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When he becomes bored.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When he becomes thirsty and hungry

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • When he wants consensual sex

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When he wants nonconsensual sex

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When the air supply shuts down and he dies.

    Votes: 2 20.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The point of the cleansing is to give each soul a fresh start in the next life.
Why? What's the point - especially if they essentially a different person.

They retain their good qualities, their affinities and aversions, so, they are still the same individual.
So the Child murderer still remembers all the children he killed, and has the urge to kill again, and the victims still remember being killed.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that God doesn't do this because turning away from evil is valued greatly.
But most people don't "turn away from evil" because they have no evil to turn away from. So god has engineered a world of suffering just so that a few damaged individuals might be able to resist their dangerous urges, and many innocents suffer as part of the experiment.
Seems reasonable.
And why are most people generally good while some are sadistic psychopaths? It's the way god created them I guess. So why not just create everyone as generally good and don't create any monsters?

What if the child was a murderer in their past life and this crime was left unpunished?
Sorry, didn't realise you believe in reincarnation and karma. I thought you said you we're Jewish.
So someone else has to become a child murderer in order to balance the scales. So then they get murdered in their next life. And so the cycle of violence and suffering continues. Surely it would be easier for god to just not create any people who want to murder children in the first place?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It's just like a court of law. Lacking evidence innocence is presumed.
But god's charted has been repeatedly put on trial, and he always seems to be guilty. Do you mean that he is innocent until you accept he is guilty?

When I look around at the world where I live, I am surrounding by living things not dead things.
More things have died than are alive today, but that isn't the point.
If god is the abusive monster he seems to be, he would want people to live and suffer rather than just die.

If God were malevolent life would be much worse.
But it should be much, much better.
It's almost as if a lot of the stuff that happens in the world is random rather than planned.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Maybe you're right.Maybe it's more accurate to say I'm optimistic about God's morality.
But either way, I still maintain that without more information it's impossible to judge.
The Torah gives us the information that god condones slavery. Therefore we can judge that god as morally deficient.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Why? What's the point - especially if they essentially a different person.
My claim is that they are essentially the same person. Same affinites, same aversions, fresh start.
So the Child murderer still remembers all the children he killed, and has the urge to kill again, and the victims still remember being killed.
No, the child murderer doesn't remember; the victim doesn't remember. The murderer may still have the affinity for murder, but they have the opportunity to turn away from those behaviors.
But most people don't "turn away from evil" because they have no evil to turn away from. So god has engineered a world of suffering just so that a few damaged individuals might be able to resist their dangerous urges, and many innocents suffer as part of the experiment.
Seems reasonable.
IMV it's a complicated system with a lot of moving parts. In my opinion it's easier to seperate the issue of evil acts from the issue of suffering. For the evil person, they maybe punished for their actions, we simply don't know. Maybe there is a reason God doesn't interfere, we simply don't know. For the issue of suffering, we don't know if the victim is innocent and there is an opportunity to overcome their circumstances which will be greatly rewarded. It's more complex than I think you are granting to it.
And why are most people generally good while some are sadistic psychopaths?
We're are all flawed, some much more than the majority. It could be these sadistic psychopaths are the product of their environment.
So why not just create everyone as generally good and don't create any monsters?
The challenge to remain faithful would be less, the reward would be less. God wants to reward us greatly for remaining faithful in spite of the monsters in the world.
Sorry, didn't realise you believe in reincarnation and karma. I thought you said you we're Jewish.
Yes, I'm Jewish. In my community we believe in reincarnation and a version of karma called midda-keneged-midda.
So someone else has to become a child murderer in order to balance the scales. So then they get murdered in their next life. And so the cycle of violence and suffering continues. Surely it would be easier for god to just not create any people who want to murder children in the first place?
The cycle continues until the murderer moderates their violent impulses. Yes it would be easier to create the world without the murderer, but it would also be easier to omit humans altogther. Would that be better in your opinion?
Based on what?
If I had reason to believe that the babysitter might be a child abuser, I would not leave my child with them and hope that they weren't.
I think you're stretching the argument beyond its usefulness. We are not talking about leaving the child in the care of a known abuser. What we're talking about is why to worship a God who does not interfere with abuse, murder, etc. Your example doesn't fit for me, sorry.
But god's charted has been repeatedly put on trial, and he always seems to be guilty. Do you mean that he is innocent until you accept he is guilty?
I see you've given an example later in your post, I'll try to address this there. In general, though I maintain that there is too little information to judge.
More things have died than are alive today, but that isn't the point.
If god is the abusive monster he seems to be, he would want people to live and suffer rather than just die.
Yes, but that's not what I said. I said when I look around I see more living things than dead things. If God were malevolent life would be worse. Think about it, the way that the dead decompose and feed new life is much better than no decomposition and being surrounded by dead bodies and carcasses. If God were a sadistic monster, why not create a world where we are surrounded by death?
But it should be much, much better.
It's almost as if a lot of the stuff that happens in the world is random rather than planned.
Sure, it could be random, I'm not sure how that effects our discussion.
The Torah gives us the information that god condones slavery. Therefore we can judge that god as morally deficient.
Unless abolishing slavery at that time would result in a worse situation.
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Please re-read what I wrote. NO anger towards mentally ill - pedophiles are mentally ill. What I do hold anger towards is a God who does not protect, does not educate, does NOTHING. You believe in a God who a) creates mentally ill pedophiles then b) welcomes them into heaven then c) condemns their *angry* victims to hell. Why should victim trust god or want anything to do with that vile bystander?

I do not believe in any God - no imagined absentee father figure not answering prayers for me. Just laws of nature - so much better than believing there is a God who hates children, hates everyone but privlidged pricks.

Those who sit by, tell little victims to forgive without protecting them, lie about God protecting them, lie to themselves that they don't need to do anything for anyone because *grace* enable abuse.

Thank god for secular organizations who actually help victims, and -tuff love - help pedophiles too by incarcerating them.
Ok I don't know a single Christian who would agree with letting a pedophile run free. I also know there's lots of Christian organizations that help victims of abuse.
So I don't know where you are getting these ideas.
God does plenty, BTW. He offers healing and eternal life to all
No unrepentant pedophiles are going to heaven, BTW.
Only the repentant are forgiven.
It is interesting how people will pick one sin they think should be unforgivable. Reality is, we all have a dark side and the potential for doing great evil. So we all need forgiveness.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Considering the hundreds of claims per year reported by each of the three insurance companies that cover most churches in the US, you probably do know more than one such Christian.
Why would you assume that someone is a Christian because they attend a church?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Why would I assume that you are a Christian just because you say so? I have no more than the word of any Christian. Including you.
That's right. There's lots of tares among the wheat according to Jesus himself.
So don't assume that when you hear about some abusive Christian that they were actually ever a real believer. Only God knows who is real.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That's right. There's lots of tares among the wheat according to Jesus himself.
So don't assume that when you hear about some abusive Christian that they were actually ever a real believer. Only God knows who is real.
How about the leaders at the top of the Church, who hide these crimes and shield these child rapists from prosecution? They're all fakes too?
 

idea

Question Everything
Ok I don't know a single Christian who would agree with letting a pedophile run free. I also know there's lots of Christian organizations that help victims of abuse.
So I don't know where you are getting these ideas.
God does plenty, BTW. He offers healing and eternal life to all
No unrepentant pedophiles are going to heaven, BTW.
Only the repentant are forgiven.
It is interesting how people will pick one sin they think should be unforgivable. Reality is, we all have a dark side and the potential for doing great evil. So we all need forgiveness.

Have you avoided reading the news lately? Christians use "Priest–penitent privilege" to avoid reporting pedophiles, church thinks it is above the law, that it can take care of situations on its own - they cover up abuse, tell victims to forgive 70×7, put pedophiles in support groups with one another where they cry, promise to be better, and then go out and repeat the offense knowing they are not alone - a large percentage of clergy are pedophiles.

Christian "therapists" are trained to protect the church from lawsuits - NOT protect victims. For anyone else out there reading this - do NOT go to your church for help - they see you as a lawsuit waiting to happen, their #1 priority is to silence you. No one ever wants to believe the worst about their dad, their bishop, their youth leaders- they will believe the "priest", they will not believe you.

Go straight to police - there are amazing resources the police will connect you with. You will need to find detectives, and therapists who are in no way connected or affiliated with your church group.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Have you avoided reading the news lately? Christians use "Priest–penitent privilege" to avoid reporting pedophiles, church thinks it is above the law, that it can take care of situations on its own - they cover up abuse, tell victims to forgive 70×7, put pedophiles in support groups with one another where they cry, promise to be better, and then go out and repeat the offense knowing they are not alone - a large percentage of clergy are pedophiles.

Christian "therapists" are trained to protect the church from lawsuits - NOT protect victims. For anyone else out there reading this - do NOT go to your church for help - they see you as a lawsuit waiting to happen, their #1 priority is to silence you. No one ever wants to believe the worst about their dad, their bishop, their youth leaders- they will believe the "priest", they will not believe you.

Go straight to police - there are amazing resources the police will connect you with. You will need to find detectives, and therapists who are in no way connected or affiliated with your church group.
If that was your experience you were at the wrong church.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
That's right. There's lots of tares among the wheat according to Jesus himself.
So don't assume that when you hear about some abusive Christian that they were actually ever a real believer. Only God knows who is real.
I don't care what Jesus said. Your claim that you are Christian is no more or less credible that all of the other people who claim to be Christians. If they cannot be believed, then neither can you.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I don't care what Jesus said. Your claim that you are Christian is no more or less credible that all of the other people who claim to be Christians. If they cannot be believed, then neither can you.

Most Christians have the habit of accusing other Christians of not being "real Christians," and it's as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 as an example). The issue I have with Christians claiming that other Christians are not genuine followers of Christ is that they can never agree on what the Bible says, and they frequently quarrel, insult, and aggressively fight one another over what they think the Bible actually teaches. The truth is that if you ask a diverse group of Christians the same theological question, you will get different answers. All of these Christians will also use the Bible to support their answer, even though their responses will be quite different and at odds with one another. The irony of all this is that most Christians claim that the Bible is divinely inspired by their God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but they can't agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Most Christians have the habit of accusing other Christians of not being "real Christians," and it's as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 as an example). The issue I have with Christians claiming that other Christians are not genuine followers of Christ is that they can never agree on what the Bible says, and they frequently quarrel, insult, and aggressively fight one another over what they think the Bible actually teaches. The truth is that if you ask a diverse group of Christians the same theological question, you will get different answers. All of these Christians will also use the Bible to support their answer, even though their responses will be quite different and at odds with one another. The irony of all this is that most Christians claim that the Bible is divinely inspired by their God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but they can't agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches.
Yeah. It is a nasty habit. Just another way to dodge accountability. They acknowledge that Christians sin. They do the whole, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" schtick. Then as soon as a Christian sins they are suddenly not a "real, true Christian". I have no tolerance for such habitual mendacity.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Yeah. It is a nasty habit. Just another way to dodge accountability. They acknowledge that Christians sin. They do the whole, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" schtick. Then as soon as a Christian sins they are suddenly not a "real, true Christian". I have no tolerance for such habitual mendacity.

For what it's worth, I don't accept any of the purported teachings of Jesus either. As I've explained in other threads, I don't believe the stories in the Bible about Jesus, or any other story in the Bible for that matter (see here). To be honest, I don't see any reason why we should give the stories of Jesus any more weight than we do the myths about all the deities and demi-gods in Greek mythology.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
This goes back to the subject of the OP. How is stopping someone from hurting another person turning them into an automaton? If you are about to slap a baby, and I grab your hand to stop you, are you suddenly an automaton? No. The whole stopping = automaton thing makes no sense.

I believe my time doing jail ministry has an answer to this. Supposedly jail is intended to correct a person's behavior. The truth is: It does not. You can prevent the person from committing a crime while they are in jail but he goes right back to it after getting out. God isn't looking to prevent behavior but to change the mind of the person so he will act right. Those who turn to God in jail get out and no longer commit crimes.
 
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