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Anglican Plan Threatens Split on Gay Issues

Pah

Uber all member
Anglican Plan Threatens Split on Gay Issues

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and NEELA BANERJEE
Published: June 28, 2006

New York Times - registration required

In a defining moment in the Anglican Communion's civil war over homosexuality, the Archbishop of Canterbury proposed a plan yesterday that could force the Episcopal Church in the United States either to renounce gay bishops and same-sex unions or to give up full membership in the Communion.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
That's a schism waiting to happen. Over what? Silly decision from a religious and business perspective Archbishop.
 

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
This is what happens when the ear of the AC is firmly in the possession of the African Archbishops. Considering Peter Akinola (Abp of Nigeria) has consistently supported removing liberals from the church, in much the same way as he supports legislation in Nigeria which not only criminalises homosexual activity but also criminalises any public support for them.

Kiwimac
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Pah said:
Anglican Plan Threatens Split on Gay Issues

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and NEELA BANERJEE
Published: June 28, 2006

New York Times - registration required

In a defining moment in the Anglican Communion's civil war over homosexuality, the Archbishop of Canterbury proposed a plan yesterday that could force the Episcopal Church in the United States either to renounce gay bishops and same-sex unions or to give up full membership in the Communion.

I know; he seems reluctant to give an inch. What a great shame.
 

Elvendon

Mystical Tea Dispenser
This is indeed a severe and worrying problem. It worries me intensely that the Communion is threatened with schism. I agree that this is mostly at the behest of certain African Bishops (though it is not exclusively them), who show intolerance and judgementalism that is totally out of keeping with the spirit of the Christian faith and the teachings of Christ (Didn't our Lord forgive the adulterous woman who was going to be stoned?) If Archbishop Akinola really wants to interpret the Bible the way he does, then he should join the American Christian Right and accept other racist and blasphemous interpretations - I would recommend he castigates himself and accepts the insuperiorty as a Son of Ham, as opposed to the far superior sons of Japeth and Shem. But I digress.

The problem here is we are not dealing with the root of the issue - rather than address the issue of whether we like gays or not, we should ask the question why shouldn't/should we not like them?

It is my firm conviction that God, insofar as he ethics and actions are concerned, is a logical, reasonable being. Otherwise, he would be impossible to interact with. Therefore, there must be a reason why homosexuality is a bad thing according to God. Most other things that are forbidden in the Old Testament - non-kosher foods, extra-marital sex, uncleanliness etc. have some modicum of reason to them. Most of the non-kosher foods in the OT are likely to spoil quickly or be infected with parasites in the hot, middle-eastern climate; promiscuous, extra-marital sex spreads disease, carries the risk of unwanted children and devalues what would otherwise be a profound expression of love; uncleanliness causes disease. Even if the rules themselves are flawed, the thoughts behind them tend to be highly sensible.

Then there is homosexuality. Now, when one thinks about it, a strictly monogamous, loving, homosexual relationship should not actually be bad - it does not spread disease, it expresses love, and it certainly does not run the risk of producing unwanted children. The Bible does condemn homosexuality in many passages - even the New Testament refers to it once or twice as being a sin. However, what was homosexual sex back in the day? Well -

http://personal.monm.edu/RBAY/homosexuality_in_rome.htm

Basically, homosexuality in ancient Roman times was not at all what it is today. It existed in two forms - either as a form of sexual power-play or masturbation between a master and his slave or as an element of a pederastic relationship. In Rome, a monogamous homosexual relationship between two freemen was almost unheard of - such a thing would have made both men involved liable to be executed.

What does all this mean? Well it means that passages like:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10

(which is, in fact, the ONLY passage in the New Testament that I can find that refers directly to homosexuals.)

Are NOT referring to monogamous, equal status, genetically prone, unconvertable, undeniable homosexuals. Because, in Roman times, such a person was not believed to exist. Homosexual sex was merely a matter of preference, just as young men today might decide to go for a blonde or a brunette, young Romans would pick a male or female slave to have sex with. Also, notice it says "homosexual offenders" not "homosexuals" - in the context of other sexually immoral individuals it could mean those homosexuals who were following the Roman Model were to be condemned - not gay people in general. So even IF there were monogamous gays in the Corinthian community (which I doubt there were) this passage could be understood as excluding them from the "barred from the kingdom" list, and only including those homosexuals who were "offenders" - that is, gays who indulged in pederastic, permiscuous or non-monogamous sex.

HOWEVER! This nifty bit of textual exegesis is entirely pointless if we don't know the purpose of sex in God's mind. What does the Bible say on this matter? Nothing. It is silent on the matter of the purpose of sex. All it does say is that sexual immorality has to be avoided. From human experience, it appears there are three things that *could* be the purpose/s of sex:
  1. An expression of love between two people.
  2. A source of pleasure.
  3. A way to produce offspring.
Now, sex obviously performs all these duties. However, which out of these is it's prime purpose? A prime purpose is what the act is actually for, while the others would only be subsidiary purposes, that do not stand up as a purpose in their own right. The Anglican Communion, I believe says that number 1. is of greatest importance. Now, if an expression of love between two, exclusive partneers is indeed the prime purpose of sex in God's view, then there cannot be said to be anything wrong with homosexuality if conducted in the same way as Christian heterosexual relationships are conducted. If however we believe the purpose of sex to be purely to produce children, then homosexuality is indeed wrong.

The reason why I am not "anti-gay" is that I believe that the only justification for homosexuality being wrong, (number 3 being the most important) leads us to a place that is, in my view, abhorrent. It renders one of the most beautiful and profound experiences in human existence into a base and vulgar act of physical replication. Why would God make sex so meaningful and the feelings so strong and pleasant if it was only for the purpose of making more people? By making sex appear as something unrighteous that is only a means to an end, something to get over with as quickly as possible, it demeans and degrades a vast part of the human experience. It also means that abortion in any context, even when the life of the mother is threatened massively, is wrong. It also means that contraception is evil. None of which the Anglican mainstream holds to be true. Thus, we have no scriptural or logical reason to oppose homosexuality, without resorting to hypocracy.

In my view, if a homosexual, priest or otherwise, honestly and truthfully, exposes himself in the eyes of God and is accepted by Him, then who are we, as sinners all, to judge them? In my view, Peter Akinola needs to take a good, long, hard look in the mirrior, and ask himself - "Am I better than God? If not, am I sinless? If not, am I right to judge?" I think Mr Akinola will be quite humbled by the response.

Elvendon.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
*** Mod Post ***

Please remember while respectful questions are welcome, no outside viewpoints/debate are/is allowed within Discuss Individual Religion forums. This particular forum is for the use Anglicans/Epspicopaleans(sp) to discuss and inform of their faith.

Certain posts have been deleted because of their debative nature.

Thank you.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It has always been the nature of the Anglican Church to find its voice in "the middle ground." I hope that we can continue to plot a faithful course through the polarization we find in this issue. I wish the most conservative of us would find a little more tolerance, and the most liberal a little less zeal. I think there is a middle ground here, and that that's where we'll find Christ.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
It has always been the nature of the Anglican Church to find its voice in "the middle ground." I hope that we can continue to plot a faithful course through the polarization we find in this issue. I wish the most conservative of us would find a little more tolerance, and the most liberal a little less zeal. I think there is a middle ground here, and that that's where we'll find Christ.
I agree.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It has always been the nature of the Anglican Church to find its voice in "the middle ground." I hope that we can continue to plot a faithful course through the polarization we find in this issue. I wish the most conservative of us would find a little more tolerance, and the most liberal a little less zeal. I think there is a middle ground here, and that that's where we'll find Christ.

A deification of Aristotle's Golden Mean. :eek:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
A deification of Aristotle's Golden Mean. :eek:

Not at all. Christ is not always found in the middle ground. Sometimes Christ is found in extremes. But, I think the best expression of Christ in this case (where there is displayed much very human venom and judgment) is via moderation, where tolerance, forbearance, and patience can mitigate the judgment we bring through misunderstanding, the fright we feel in the unknown, and the venom we spit through believing our view to be the "right" one.

Above all, we, as Anglicans, in the baptismal covenant, are taught to "seek and to serve Christ in all persons, loving our neighbor as ourselves," and to "strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being. As this issue is dealt with, (as the issue of Catholic/Protestant was dealt with), we have to remain true to the spirit of our Church, which has always been quick to find loving compromise that brings people together as one Body, rather than to define ourselves so harshly that some are left out.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Not at all. Christ is not always found in the middle ground. Sometimes Christ is found in extremes. But, I think the best expression of Christ in this case (where there is displayed much very human venom and judgment) is via moderation, where tolerance, forbearance, and patience can mitigate the judgment we bring through misunderstanding, the fright we feel in the unknown, and the venom we spit through believing our view to be the "right" one.

Above all, we, as Anglicans, in the baptismal covenant, are taught to "seek and to serve Christ in all persons, loving our neighbor as ourselves," and to "strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being. As this issue is dealt with, (as the issue of Catholic/Protestant was dealt with), we have to remain true to the spirit of our Church, which has always been quick to find loving compromise that brings people together as one Body, rather than to define ourselves so harshly that some are left out.

So Christ is sometimes extreme whereas the Church is not? Your assertion that you have not deified the Golden Mean is not very convincing here.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I don't think Soj is deifying the golden mean here AE. Actually, what the AC is trying to do is follow the golden commandment: love one another. Loving one another means trying to put our relationship with each other foremost, rather than political means and ends. Relationship often means some kind of compromise, or at least tolerance of the other's views. It's not easy, it requires a lot of patience over issues people really do not want to be patient with. The wheels of change may grind slow and fine but I think that's better than a hasty change and a break in relationship (even though that may be what happens...but it ain't over 'till it's over).

Where two or three gather Christ is...where Christ is Love is...where Love is we try to keep in communion and relationship withstanidng the storm of doctrine. I think that is the hallmark and strength of the AC.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So Christ is sometimes extreme whereas the Church is not? Your assertion that you have not deified the Golden Mean is not very convincing here.

No. You're misunderstanding me. Sometimes Christ is found in the extreme, sometimes not. We, as Christians, need to engage in serious discernment to discover where Christ is within any particular issue and speak as Christ, from where Christ speaks. My point is primarily that Christ is not automatically found in moderation.

However, in this particular case, keeping in mind our mandate to seek and serve Christ in all others, and to work for justice and dignity of every person, some sort of compromise will have to be reached. This is clearly not a one-sided issue. To promote one side, while stifling the other is to promote separation, which is anathema to the Anglican foundation. Whereas the Church spoke out very strongly against Apartheid, for example, because there was no justice for every person in that dynamic, the issue of homosexuality contains far more "gray area" that needs to be examined and treated very carefully.

If Christ is to be found in justice for every person, then Christ will be found in some sort of compromise here, because not every person is either gay or straight, and all need to be able to justly find expression in the Church.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
This is still rumbling along.
I don't think it's an issue that will go away but what is going to happen over the next few years? Will there be 2 Anglican churches?
 

Smoke

Done here.
If Christ is to be found in justice for every person, then Christ will be found in some sort of compromise here, because not every person is either gay or straight, and all need to be able to justly find expression in the Church.
In what way would the full and equal membership of gay people deprive straight people of their ability to justly find expression in the church?
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Above all, we, as Anglicans, in the baptismal covenant, are taught to "seek and to serve Christ in all persons, loving our neighbor as ourselves," and to "strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being. As this issue is dealt with, (as the issue of Catholic/Protestant was dealt with), we have to remain true to the spirit of our Church, which has always been quick to find loving compromise that brings people together as one Body, rather than to define ourselves so harshly that some are left out.

You use the words "rather than to define ourselves so harshly that some are left out." And yet my gay Episcopalian friends feel left out in churches in which they are not allowed access to all of the sacraments, as straight people are, such as holy orders or marriage. I don't see this as a gray issue at all.

What if we were debating the ordination and consecration of African Americans as clergy and bishops? Would we seek some middle ground, some compromise, some ban on African American Episcopalians to the sacraments of holy orders and marriage? Would that truly be Christ like?

Christ's message, at least as I understand it, was a radical one. It got him crucified, after all.

I can see where compromise has been necessary and even good for the Anglican Communion as well as other religious communities. But some issues are moral issues, and on that, I can't see compromise as an option. I don't think it would be moral to exclude people from any sacraments based on race, nor on gender, nor on sexuality.

I'm sure all here would agree that it would be unacceptable to ban the consecration of African American bishops if the rest of the Anglican Communion had a problem with it. But for some reason, a different reasoning is applied to LGBT people, and on no solid theological grounds at that.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I'm sure all here would agree that it would be unacceptable to ban the consecration of African American bishops if the rest of the Anglican Communion had a problem with it. But for some reason, a different reasoning is applied to LGBT people, and on no solid theological grounds at that.

There is a huge body within the Anglican Communion (with whom I agree wholeheartedly) that adopt exactly the position you suggest.
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
More movement in this direction from 6 June:
LONDON – The Anglican Communion has suspended U.S. Episcopalians from serving on some interfaith bodies because of the election of a lesbian as a bishop in California.

The U.S. church opened a rift in the global communion, and within its own ranks, seven years ago by electing a gay man, V. Gene Robinson, as bishop of New Hampshire. Conservative African Anglicans have taken a lead in opposing moves in the United States and Canada to promote gays and to bless homosexual relationships.
...
The Rev. Canon Kenneth Kearon, secretary general of the Anglican Communion, announced Monday that Episcopalians had been downgraded from members to consultants in formal ecumenical dialogues, annual meetings between Anglicans and clergy in other churches intended to build friendship and better understand one another's traditions and issues of mutual concern such as points of theology and ways of worshipping.
Anglicans cut Episcopalians from ecumenical bodies - Yahoo! News
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member

That article seems to have expired but here is a similar article from a different news source:

Anglican Communion cuts US Episcopalians from ecumenical bodies for electing lesbian bishop | StarTribune.com

That said, I strongly disagree with this. I am all for the full inclusion of the GBLT community into the Episcopal Church and I do not feel it was right for the Anglicans to cut Episcopalians from the ecumenical bodies.
 
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