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Anglicans back right to deny gay adoption

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2563054,00.html

Britain
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The TimesJanuary 24, 2007
Anglicans back right to deny gay adoption

Ruth Gledhill and Greg Hurst
Archbishops write to Prime Minister
Conscience is not a matter for law, letter says

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Letter from the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to the Prime Minister
Ruth Gledhill's blog on the adoption row

The Church of England put pressure on the Prime Minister last night over the gay adoptions row with a letter giving warning that “rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation”.
The Archbishops of Canterbury and York declared on the side of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster after Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor wrote to every member of the Cabinet stating that the Catholic Church could not accept a law forcing its adoption agencies to accept gay couples.
The intervention by Dr Rowan Williams and Dr John Sentamu in a letter seen by The Times places unprecedented pressure on Tony Blair. If he accedes to the demands, he will face accusations from the gay rights lobby and many within his own Government of being a “Vatican puppet”. If he stands by the gay lobby, he risks alienating hundreds of thousands of Catholic Labour voters.
It is thought that Mr Blair, an Anglican whose wife is a Catholic and who has long been known to be sympathetic to the Church himself, favours a compromise. However, most other Cabinet ministers are taking a much harder line and believe that compromise is impossible. If the Church is allowed to opt out, they argue, it would undermine the fundemental position of law.
In their letter, Dr Williams and Dr Sentamu highlight the danger of the row escalating to the point where some might question the ability of people with a strong faith to be in government.
They say: “It would be deeply regrettable if in seeking, quite properly, better to defend the rights of a particular group not to be discriminated against, a climate were to be created in which, for example, some feel free to argue that members of the Government are not fit to hold public office on the grounds of their faith affiliation.”
They give warning that the argument over the Sexual Orientation Regulations has reached damaging proportions and that “much could be lost”. They say: “Many in the voluntary sector are dedicated to public service because of the dictates of their conscience. In legislating to protect and promote the rights of particular groups the Government is faced with the delicate but important challenge of not thereby creating the conditions within which others feel their rights to have been ignored or sacrificed, or in which the dictates of personal conscience are put at risk.
“The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.” They draw a comparison with doctors working for the NHS, who are entitled to opt out of performing abortions if it goes against their conscience.
They said: “It is vitally important that the interests of vulnerable children are not relegated to suit any political interest. And that conditions are not inadvertently created which make the claims of conscience an obstacle to, rather than the inspiration for, the invaluable public service rendered by parts of the voluntary sector.”
Their letter came as Mr Blair signalled his support for Catholic adoption agencies to opt out of gay rights laws despite accusations of blackmail by bishops threatening their closure.
Downing Street said Mr Blair had taken charge of the search for a compromise amid a stand-off between the Catholic Church and supporters of gay rights over a new law to curb discrimination. But supporters of the new regulations insisted there was no scope for a middle way without breaching the principles of equality law. :(

 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
What is so wrong about a family raising and loving a child that no one else wants?

Denying GBLT people and couples the right to adopt simply on the basis of their sexual orientation, (which has nothing to do with how good of a parent you are), is nothing but pure bigotry. That said, the Catholics and Anglicans should be allowed to do whatever bigotted and discriminatory practices they like.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JamesThePersian said:
Wonders never cease - Anglican bishops with a backbone.

James

I am sorry you feel that way, James, but you are right for being true to what you believe to be right, and what is wrong..........
 

lunamoth

Will to love
1. I fully support the rights of gay couples to adopt children.

2. I'm disappointed with the Anglican Archbishop's changing stance on homosexuality, which has drifted from very supportive to not supportive as he's moved into his present place as Archbishop.

3. The Anglican Church and the Episcoapl Church have no bans against gay couples adopting, I have no idea if they actually run adoption agencies but I don't think that they do. The Epsicopal Church has courageously been at the forefront of supporting homosexuals, performing same-sex marriage blessings and has even appointed a gay Bishop.

4. The issue at stake is whether the government can dictate that a religious organization must do something against it's own tenets. Would you want the government to be able to tell your religious organization that you are not allowed to perform save-sex blessings or that you may not allow gays to adopt? I agree with the Archbishop here.

added: I am also an adoptive parent myself and I applaud anyone who endeavors to find good, loving families for children who need them. We need more people working on this, not fewer. I disagree with the Catholic agency's ban on gay parents, but there are other options for gay parents looking to adopt. Go Catholic Charities!
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
lunamoth said:
4. The issue at stake is whether the government can dictate that a religious organization must do something against it's own tenets. Would you want the government to be able to tell your religious organization that you are not allowed to perform save-sex blessings or that you may not allow gays to adopt?
Oh, but they do! They say UUs, who support and affirm same gender couples, must discriminate against those same gender couples and deny them a legal marriage, yet Christian churches who only marry heterosexual couples are perfectly Ok. That's discriminatory!

But I agree, the government should not force a religious organization to do something against it's own tenets. Which is why UUs should be allowed to perform legal same gender marriages because to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation is against our Principles. What's good for the goose....

But back on topic... gay adoptions. To say that GBLT people are not fit to raise a child is a slap in the face to every GBLT parent and I find it personally offensive that I am told I am not good enough or worthy to raise a child simply because of my sexual orientation. Those who wish to deny gay adoptions are showing nothing more than their bigotry for and (willful) misunderstanding of GBLT people.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Maize said:
Oh, but they do! They say UUs, who support and affirm same gender couples, must discriminate against those same gender couples and deny them a legal marriage, yet Christian churches who only marry heterosexual couples are perfectly Ok. That's discriminatory!
And I agree with you, it is discriminatory to deny legally recognized marriages (equal to those of heterosexuals) to gay couples. Maize, you know I fully support this.

But I agree, the government should not force a religious organization to do something against it's own tenets.
And that is what Williams is saying here. He did not say anything at all about it being wrong for gay couples to adopt. Only that it is wrong to make a religious organization betray it's own tenets.


Which is why UUs should be allowed to perform legal same gender marriages because to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation is against our Principles.
UU's are not a legal power though...neither they nor the Episcopal Church can legalize a marriage that the state will not recognize...but no one in secular governemnt stops UUs or Episcopalians from performig SS blessings.

What's good for the goose....
What can I say that I already have not?

But back on topic... gay adoptions. To say that GBLT people are not fit to raise a child is a slap in the face to every GBLT parent and I find it personally offensive that I am told I am not good enough or worthy to raise a child simply because of my sexual orientation.
Anyone who says this is being discriminatory and offensive. I agree.

Those who wish to deny gay adoptions are showing nothing more than their bigotry for and (willful) misunderstanding of GBLT people.

I disagree with that. Some people wish to deny gay adoptions based upon their own view of what is morally right or wrong, perhaps for reasons of faith or religion. I disagree with them, but I don't think that makes them bigots (although of course some are).
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
I can see no wrong in a couple of any nature wanting to give an abandoned child the love of a family. Whether or not you believe being gay is sinful doesnt play in for if that was the case and the issue is with allowing sinful parents to adopt there would be no adoptions. Sin has no greater or lesser value in the eyes of God. However denying the love of a family to a child is to deny love. Which in essence is to deny them the value of God's law. All that do this will be indeed the least in heaven as the scriptures say.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
lunamoth said:
And I agree with you, it is discriminatory to deny legally recognized marriages (equal to those of heterosexuals) to gay couples. Maize, you know I fully support this.

I know you do, and I wasn't directing this at you, just more in general.

And that is what Williams is saying here. He did not say anything at all about it being wrong for gay couples to adopt. Only that it is wrong to make a religious organization betray it's own tenets.

And that's fine, I agree with that. But why is this enforced when it is a Christian tenet, but not a UU one? That's religious discrimination.

UU's are not a legal power though...neither they nor the Episcopal Church can legalize a marriage that the state will not recognize...but no one in secular governemnt stops UUs or Episcopalians from performig SS blessings.
It shouldn't be about who has legal power, it should be about equality and fairness. Same gender couples and religious organizations who support their right to marry are being discriminated against. If Catholic churches don't want to be forced to allow gay adoptions fine, but why are UU churches forced to deny legal marriages to same gender couples? It's a double standard.
I disagree with that. Some people wish to deny gay adoptions based upon their own view of what is morally right or wrong, perhaps for reasons of faith or religion. I disagree with them, but I don't think that makes them bigots (although of course some are).

Until we start calling it what it is, nothing will change. Allowing people to hide behind, "well my religion says..." to continue discriminatory and hurtful practices, especially in public policy, will only allow the problem go on.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Michel, did you read this i posted the other day?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45820

if the chruch is going to threaten to close down adoption houses in order to keep from betraying their tenents, i would rather the government betray the gay right and equality laws for the greater good of the children at stake here - but it's a damn shame the church would put children at harm as political pawns in order to continue to discriminate.
 

XAAX

Active Member
I am glad to see such a positive response from religious people on the rights of gays. It is truly refreshing...
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Mike182 said:
Michel, did you read this i posted the other day?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45820

if the chruch is going to threaten to close down adoption houses in order to keep from betraying their tenents, i would rather the government betray the gay right and equality laws for the greater good of the children at stake here - but it's a damn shame the church would put children at harm as political pawns in order to continue to discriminate.

You make a good point here and I agree overall. In this instance (adoption), it is better to appease the church for the sake of the children waiting for adoption; however, it would be best to be cautious about going about that so as not to set a precedent that gay rights and equality can be easily pushed back or halted through enough complaining, threats, and stubbornness. This is quite a situation you got over there and either way, someone's coming out a loser, and best it's not the children who are merely in need of a good, loving home - a home which, of course, I feel is not determined by such things as the combination of the genitals of the parents, but rather by their fitness to parent.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
standing_alone said:
You make a good point here and I agree overall. In this instance (adoption), it is better to appease the church for the sake of the children waiting for adoption; however, it would be best to be cautious about going about that so as not to set a precedent that gay rights and equality can be easily pushed back or halted through enough complaining, threats, and stubbornness. This is quite a situation you got over there and either way, someone's coming out a loser, and best it's not the children who are merely in need of a good, loving home - a home which, of course, I feel is not determined by such things as the combination of the genitals of the parents, but rather by their fitness to parent.

i agree, there is no mid way path to be found here - Tony is more nutts than i thought if he thinks he can find one :areyoucra

in this case, as a gay man and a liberal, it kills me to say it, but gay rights upholders should back off for now if the church is going to threaten to stop adoption services over this issue. as a result of backing off, we will have to take the flack this throws back at us in the future. if the church looses here, the children loose, and i'm putting them before gay rights. this will give gay rights opposers power and leverage over gay rights, but it looks like it will have to be done. :(

this world sucks :(
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Mike182 said:
in this case, as a gay man and a liberal, it kills me to say it, but gay rights upholders should back off for now if the church is going to threaten to stop adoption services over this issue. as a result of backing off, we will have to take the flack this throws back at us in the future. if the church looses here, the children loose, and i'm putting them before gay rights. this will give gay rights opposers power and leverage over gay rights, but it looks like it will have to be done. :(

Yeah, it's a rather unfortunate situation. :(

this world sucks :(

Tell me about it. :(


Thing that gets to me though, is by not considering same-sex couples, the Church is limiting the options of potential good, loving homes to which these children could go.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
standing_alone said:
Yeah, it's a rather unfortunate situation. :(



Tell me about it. :(


Thing that gets to me though, is by not considering same-sex couples, the Church is limiting the options of potential good, loving homes to which these children could go. Let's just hope there's enough opposite-sex couples interested in the Church's adoption services to give them kids a good home.

totally! and i mean, it's not like the parents are gonna be doing it in front of the kid :shrug:

what affect will being adopted by gay parents have anyway? i just don't understand the need to discriminate.

"Welcome, mike, to another round of kick the gay, or kick the kid - the choice is yours! want some cocoa?" :sarcastic
 

lunamoth

Will to love
standing_alone said:
Thing that gets to me though, is by not considering same-sex couples, the Church is limiting the options of potential good, loving homes to which these children could go.

I agree. :(
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Mike182 said:
totally! and i mean, it's not like the parents are gonna be doing it in front of the kid :shrug:

what affect will being adopted by gay parents have anyway? i just don't understand the need to discriminate.

"Welcome, mike, to another round of kick the gay, or kick the kid - the choice is yours! want some cocoa?" :sarcastic

Well, let's not forget who forced the Catholic agency's hand here.
 
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