Animal Sacrifices - are they ever ok?

[Riverwolf]

Hm?
Why would that life possibly need to be taken?

In the context I'm talking about, ritual animal sacrifice does not happen on scales involving thousands and thousands of people. It happens in the contexts of small communities, typically farmers, which don't often get much bigger than a hundred or two. It is up to these communities to decide, as a group, what their needs are. If that involves ritually sacrificing one or two animals so the community can survive another winter, or any other reason that us city-folk can't conjure because we're not farmers, so be it.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

In current civilization there is little to no reliance on meat farming.

I think you mean "necessity", not "reliance".

"Current" civilization only means "Western" civilization(itself a descendent of Rome), and is not a microcosm for all the other civilizations and communities in the world.

Not all farms are factory farms.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why eat other animals but not humans?

Because cannibalism is one of the few (nearly)universal taboos.

But what you don't seem to understand is that your argument is only placing value on life that is "human-like" in some degree, in this case having sentience. Living things that lack this "human-like" quality are implied to not need sympathy.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

well, I think I do understand @Strategic Philosopher point of view, which is not at all unusual, I don't think.
However, I am an animist who happens to think that plants, animals, rocks, fungi, bacteria, water, cars, computers, etc., ad infinitum are at least potentially sentient, and whether or not they are, they do have/are spirits. It is inevitable that things I do will cause harm to some of them, so I try to treat them with respect, make appropriate offerings, etc. Traditional cultures have been engaging in respectful relationships with the plants and animals they hunt and gather or a long long time. That our society tends to not do so is not in question.
However, I think Strategic Philosopher is quite right to hold his/her views, wherever it is she/he sees the boundary. the OP's question was what do people think about animal sacrifice, Strategic Philosopher's answer is emphatically NO. I don't think it was the OP's intent to have people quibble over personal preferences on the matter, just to let him/her know what people here think about the issue. I think this discussion of where and why there should be a boundary should be a different topic.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not true, most civilizations would drastically benefit from stopping farming and focusing production on mass produce, not feeding mass amount of cattle.

The ratio of factory farms to non factory farms is getting progressively higher.

Seems we're talking past each other.

That's not relevant to this discussion, which is primarily about ritual animal sacrifice. Since that happens primarily in the context of farming communities (which, by definition, cannot be factory farms), whatever the ratio of factory farms to non-factory farms is irrelevant.

Why is cannibalism taboo though? Most arguments against it would be the same against animals. Can you articulate why cannabalism is bad but eating animals isn't? Whats the difference?

It's a base instinct, that I've heard is present in some other animals, as well. Like many of our behaviors, there's no "logic" to it.

I do not define sentience as "Human-like" I think that is quite a presumptuous claim.

It's been implied in your argument this whole time. It can be easy to miss the implications of our arguments, sometimes, which is probably why we're talking past each other.

I don't think you understand my argument at all. Never did I say anything about how I value life. Its not about what life I "value
If i eat plants, noone is upset, and there is no observable suffering. If i eat animals there is. That's the difference. Thats my reasoning.

But by your own admission, that reasoning doesn't apply to ritual animal sacrifice, where there is also no observable suffering when properly performed.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Aww comon, It was just getting good

Oh. Then by all means, carry on!

 

[Riverwolf]

Meh, I find the same logic is followed even when its not about consumption.

I don't condone ritual animal sacrifice that doesn't not involve consumption of the animal.

Since your standard is based on whether or not there's suffering involved, I fail to see how you can apply it to one situation in which there's no measurable suffering, but not to another where there's still no measurable suffering.

Why does that change whether its right or wrong though?

I never said anything about it being "right" or "wrong". I merely answered the question of why we don't.

Same could be said about animal consumption or sacrifice, really.

Or any of our basic instincts, such as sex or socializing.

Not sure ritual animal sacrifice is one of our base instincts, though. It's one of many behavioral manifestations of a few base instincts (religious and social behaviors), but not one in and of itself.

 

[Nietzsche]

If were talking speciesism we could integrate humans into the mix. Why eat other animals but not humans?

I'm not against it. I'm perfectly fine with cannibalism.

 

[Quintessence]

If it is "speciesist" then does that actually change anything?
If you need to kill to survive, do you kill the sentient life that can perceive pain or do you kill the life that isn't sentient and won't suffer?
I think the answer is quite clear.

It is? Seems to me sentience and pain is completely irrelevant. I'm an obligate consumer, I have to kill other living creatures to sustain my life, and I'm going to eat what I think tastes good while considering things like sustainability and honoring the spirit of that which I am killing, whether it's an animal or a plant. Any animal sacrifice I might do would have the same considerations, though I might also consider the appropriateness of the creature for the occasion. On the whole, I'm unlikely to practice animal sacrifice anyway as I'm not a fan of meat, don't like preparing raw meat, and don't have a source of live animals. But it's shameful how disconnected I am from the sacrifices made for me. One of the reasons I like growing veggies is to have that connection. I reared those plants from seed, yet I steal their children and eat them, leaving the parents to die. It's horrendous. But it is how things must be, and at least when it's in my own backyard, I can honor that in a more direct fashion.

If were talking speciesism we could integrate humans into the mix. Why eat other animals but not humans?

Good question. I don't see much of a reason for that either.

 

[Thief]

The same way you "sacrifice" your money to "appease" your ISP.



Traditionally, ritual animal sacrifice is a communal practice, and involves keeping the entire community alive, not just one person.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Besides, we don't need to die to "stand before our Gods". I can "stand before" Tiw any time I want just by going outside and looking up.

Moses performed one on one for those who came asking
it was not unusual in the days of the Carpenter.....a sacrifice at the temple for what you have done.

all of that seems gone now

and quoting Spock from Star Trek doesn't help

 

[MARCELLO]

Sacrifice for a god is really one of the disgusting parts of religions. The softened version is for animals but we all know that real sacrifice is applied to humans.

See : sacrifice of Abraham, he was eager to kill his own son for a god. For what? that remains unknown...

If i happen to kill my son for a god,I know I would be sent to jail with a life sentence,but if it is Abraham,we are told to appreciate.

It is not funny,just disgusting.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe that animal sacrifices in Islam are even more than okay. The purpose of it after all is to feed the poor as an obligation for those willing financially.

 

[MARCELLO]

I believe that animal sacrifices in Islam are even more than okay. The purpose of it after all is to feed the poor as an obligation for those willing financially.

We can feed the poor with pasta,can't we?

 

[Smart_Guy]

We can feed the poor with pasta,can't we?

Yes we can, but that does not mean feeding them meat is bad
I would choose to eat meat anytime over pasta. Not to mention that even the poor deserve to eat luxury food, don't they? Right?

 

[Quintessence]

Sacrifice for a god is really one of the disgusting parts of religions. The softened version is for animals but we all know that real sacrifice is applied to humans.

What in the blazes are you talking about? Is this practice for writing fabricated stories in tabloids or something?

See : sacrifice of Abraham, he was eager to kill his own son for a god. For what? that remains unknown...

I think you're missing the point of that parable.

 

[Thief]

there used to be a science/chef program....
the dude would cook up the good stuff and explain the dietary effects.

one episode.....white (navy) beans and lentils do it all

my grandparents ate a lot of beans during the depression

I am doing ok money wise....so far....
I have canine teeth
I like steak

God hasn't insisted on bean diet that I know of
and He gave me the teeth

 

[MARCELLO]

What in the blazes are you talking about? Is this practice for writing fabricated stories in tabloids or something?



I think you're missing the point of that parable.

What? really what?

 

[Unification]

Just a brief question. Obviously some religious preach crazy and even human sacrifice, while other like to cut off chicken heads. But, what about like sacrificing a goldfish? Your opinion?

There are many different types of sacrifices.

The most important one is the internal sacrifice/surrender of ones animal/lower/carnal minded nature of thoughts, emotions, etc. The blood within the human body (church) and brain/mind(temple/house) will flow differently and be different. Feasting within oneself (spiritual/inner food and drink). Feasting as in communicating/reasoning with other minds. Human sacrificing as in also sacrificing ones own time, etc. For the helping of others. Selfishness to selflessness.

Any kind of external religious/traditional/ritual practice of literal animal sacrificing in terms of any spiritual or saving benefit is/was twisted and sick.

For external food and external feasting, we would be eating the body, and not anything sentient/living/conscious. I could never personally kill an animal intentionally, but I eat beef and chicken. That may make me a hypocrite, but I am very thankful and appreciative for the animal that gave its physical body(not life) for my nourishment. If I wanted to, I can control myself and stop eating beef and chicken. It's not just food that animals are used for. Tires, medicine, cosmetics, all sorts of stuff. Everything that I do, I seek to do in an automatic, natural, internally discerned pure manner with no shame or guilt or concern with what anyone else thinks.

 

[Akivah]

Sacrifice for a god is really one of the disgusting parts of religions. The softened version is for animals but we all know that real sacrifice is applied to humans.

See : sacrifice of Abraham, he was eager to kill his own son for a god. For what? that remains unknown...

If i happen to kill my son for a god,I know I would be sent to jail with a life sentence,but if it is Abraham,we are told to appreciate.

It is not funny,just disgusting.

I never understand how people pull this conclusion from the "Binding of Isaac" story when Isaac is NOT sacrificed. At the end, G-d tells Abraham not to sacrifice his son. And we are told elsewhere in the bible that human sacrifice is abhorrent. It is the pagan religion of Molech that engages in human sacrifice.

 

[1137]

Didnt Cain go crazy specifically because god preference Able's animal sacrifice over Cain's crops?

 

[Riverwolf]

Moses performed

A ritual that was part of his culture, and which had absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with ritual animal sacrifice of OUR cultural ancestry, which is what I'm talking about.

To understand what I'm talking about in this matter of sacrifice, pretend you've never once heard a single story that has its origins in West Asian culture.

and quoting Spock from Star Trek doesn't help

I quote him in this instance because he's correct, and I feel it applies.

 

[Thief]

A ritual that was part of his culture, and which had absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with ritual animal sacrifice of OUR cultural ancestry, which is what I'm talking about.

To understand what I'm talking about in this matter of sacrifice, pretend you've never once heard a single story that has its origins in West Asian culture.



I quote him in this instance because he's correct, and I feel it applies.

so...sacrifice to atone for sin doesn't count?
that's a lot of dead animals....unaccounted for