**Animals**

[Super Universe]

How did he come to the conclusion that animals have no souls, and what evidence did he cite for humans posessing them?

At what point in hominid evolution did we aquire souls, and by what mechanism?

Once a primitive humanoid made the first moral choice.

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

Once a primitive humanoid made the first moral choice.

Why does the ability to make a moral choice mean a soul?

I think that that argument can only be accepted if you believe that there is a heaven for morally "right" choices, and a hell for morally "wrong" ones. That only leaves a sort of limbo or non-existence for those with the inability to choose, right?

If a soul just keeps coming back to Earth, the merits of morality don't necessarily mean as much as the experience.

 

[Super Universe]

Why does the ability to make a moral choice mean a soul?

I think that that argument can only be accepted if you believe that there is a heaven for morally "right" choices, and a hell for morally "wrong" ones. That only leaves a sort of limbo or non-existence for those with the inability to choose, right?

If a soul just keeps coming back to Earth, the merits of morality don't necessarily mean as much as the experience.

Making a moral choice does not mean a soul is involved, that's not what I said. The first moral choice showed that primitive humans had finally evolved to the point where moral choice rather than pure selfish survival instinct began to play a part in the decision making process of human personality.

Heaven is not for "right" choices, it's for "right" learning which is that we can become a very important part of the universe. Hell is for those who want to BE the most important part of the universe.

Limbo for those with the inability to choose? Who would this be?

If a soul keeps coming back to the earth, the merit of morality doesn't mean as much as the experience? Both have merit, morality and experience. If you play a video game but fail to advance on the first attempt, do you quit and give up there? Or maybe you learn something from that first experience so the next time you have a better chance of advancing?

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

I never said that morality didn't have merit, only that it's isn't as integral as the overall experience of each life. Morality doesn't necessarily have a part to play in it - animals don't really have to worry about what's right or wrong. Their choices are based on what's best for them most of the time, and damn the rest of the world. Is that to say that they have not evolved enough to acquire souls? Or that they don't deserve them?

Nope, I still firmly believe that if humans have souls then animals too must have souls. Our brains may work a little differently than the rest of the animal kingdom, but brain function has nothing to do with the soul.

 

[Hema]

In my beliefs (Hinduism), they do have souls. All souls pass through the lower life forms and then when they reach the highest form which is the human form, they have a chance to realize God. We believe that all souls come from God and will return to God. Some people disagree that animals have souls but religious beliefs aside...my own personal belief is that many animals give us unconditional love and love is an expression of the soul.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

What does everyone think happens to our animal babies after death? Do they have a soul or spirit? Do you think they end up in the same place?

This was a short topic in my philosophy class... but my professor was an arrogant one. I don't remember where he got the basis for his stance... but he said they have no soul. i think it had something to do with Aristotles levels of being or levels of something...

Aristotle's levels of being is not unlike the perennial philosophy. (E.F. Schumacher's book A Guide for the Perplexed has a good description.) But let me ask this: do you think animals have the potential to embrace ideas pertaining to meaning, truth-values, purpose and aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination?

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination?

Let me look up those words real quick n I'll be right back with an answer! Should I already know those words!!!! Whoo whoo

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Well... I think I have a very vague jist of what you were saying. i knew I had heard aesthetics before....but how you went into protoplasm and gentitics and all that with it is way beyond me. So here is what I have concluded from what you said:

1. I now believe I do not have: "the potential to embrace ideas pertaining to meaning, truth-values, purpose and aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination" lol
2. If I do not have this and I still get a soul, my cat should get one by default on my part
3. Philosophers must always view the world meticulously from a grueling forced perspective of "most basic," right? (Thats what my instructor said anyway). But, what is more basic than the mind of an animal? How can we tell how a cat thinks? They cannot speak. Our kitties could be ingenuis and all-knowing underneath their little cute kitty fascade!


And thats my feeble attempt to reply to you. i am definately not up to par for battle as you can see. Maybe a more intellegent person will come along soon :run:

 

[methylatedghosts]

I think people are the only ones with souls (a portion of God) inside a physical body (condensed God).

But I really have not basis for this other than a feeling I have, and I have no rational explanation (or any at all really) for it. It is, however, not something I concern myself with too much, so maybe that's why.

Not to mention the simple fact that WE ARE ANIMALS. *smile*

An this is where I get hung up...

But does this further go into plants having souls as well? How about single-cell organisms?

Whenever I do consider the possibility of animals having souls, I am generally in line with the hindu idea that souls begin as animals then progress to human - but how they pass the test to get to the next stage, I don't know.

Basically, for me - although I don't have any argument for why I believe so, only humans have souls, and animals don't.

(second thoughts - could be my concept of a soul - a portion of God, forgotten it is so, and experiencing not-God to know itself as God - it gets kinda complicated without a lengthy breakdown of how this works)

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Whenever I do consider the possibility of animals having souls, I am generally in line with the hindu idea that souls begin as animals then progress to human

I thought that the reincarnation from plant to animal to human was just dealing with the spiritual growth of the soul. I thought that Hindus believed everything is Brahman, and the soul is the same, just growing spiritually as it is reborn into different levels of existance, and after building enough karma and such, the soul is reborn as a human and continues progressing. i am probably mixing up like a million diffferent philosophies knowing me. But if this is right, our soul could be reborn into an animal... or is it that they do not believe in souls at all daggnabbit! You've done made me lose more marbles... it's too late... I can't think right...

 

[methylatedghosts]

I thought that the reincarnation from plant to animal to human was just dealing with the spiritual growth of the soul. I thought that Hindus believed everything is Brahman, and the soul is the same, just growing spiritually as it is reborn into different levels of existance, and after building enough karma and such, the soul is reborn as a human and continues progressing. i am probably mixing up like a million diffferent philosophies knowing me. But if this is right, our soul could be reborn into an animal... or is it that they do not believe in souls at all

daggnabbit! You've done made me lose more marbles... it's too late... I can't think right...

Don't worry - I've probably got it all wrong as well!!!

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I think of the soul as the union of material mind and a spirit-fragment of God. I'm also inclined to think, like methylatedghosts, that only humans possess a portion of God and therefore only humans possess a soul. Yet, for me, heaven ain't heaven without dogs.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Seems we're in a bit of a pickle when trying to work this out, aren't we R_S...?

 

[Doktormartini]

I do not believe in the concept of a soul but I am a vegan =o)

 

[Hema]

I thought that the reincarnation from plant to animal to human was just dealing with the spiritual growth of the soul. I thought that Hindus believed everything is Brahman, and the soul is the same, just growing spiritually as it is reborn into different levels of existance, and after building enough karma and such, the soul is reborn as a human and continues progressing. i am probably mixing up like a million diffferent philosophies knowing me. But if this is right, our soul could be reborn into an animal... or is it that they do not believe in souls at all daggnabbit! You've done made me lose more marbles... it's too late... I can't think right...

Yes, according to Hinduism, souls that were in human bodies can be reborn into animal bodies because in the human birth we have the opportunity to develop our spirituality, become enlightened and break free from the cycle of rebirths. If we waste this opportunity and live like animals, for material means only, then in the next birth we attain a body to suit this mentality.

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

Yes, according to Hinduism, souls that were in human bodies can be reborn into animal bodies because in the human birth we have the opportunity to develop our spirituality, become enlightened and break free from the cycle of rebirths. If we waste this opportunity and live like animals, for material means only, then in the next birth we attain a body to suit this mentality.

I've always wondered: what is the position of Hinduism for those who want to be reborn as animals? Is this something that you have an option on? Say you learned the lesson you were supposed to in this life, do you have a choice in what you do next, or do the gods choose whatever will best suitably teach the new lesson?

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I'm glad I was on target Hinduism was one of my favorite religions that we covered in my World Religions class... but I still don't trust my memory ya know
Anyway, as I rememeber, a person cannot dictate how their soul is reborn as it is reborn according to the persons spiritual growth/ karma accumulated in life through varying factors. The lower on the evolutionary scale you go, the moreso it is designed as spiritual regression. I.E. A person accumulates loads of bad karma by lets say... committing murder, they are just crappy. Before that person can be reborn as a person agian they must "burn off" that bad karma. They are reborn as a fruit. LOL. After a few hundred centuries being reborn as a fruit/ plant, they get to become an animal... as they have progressed spiritually, and eventually they will be born as a human agian and given another chance to build their good karma.
I don't remember if this is still believed, but I know that at some point this also crossed over into social class. A person born into lower social classes are expected to abide by the rules of their social class, which in of itself builds good karma, and then when they are reborn they will either progress to a higher social class or fall to a lower one. I don't believe Hindus in America still follow this though. This was more a part of Indias older culture I believe...

Hema will hopefully be back to clarify and elaborate...

 

[jtartar]

What does everyone think happens to our animal babies after death? Do they have a soul or spirit? Do you think they end up in the same place?

This was a short topic in my philosophy class... but my professor was an arrogant one. I don't remember where he got the basis for his stance... but he said they have no soul. i think it had something to do with Aristotles levels of being or levels of something...

Saint Tigeress,
Consider what the Bible tells us at Ecc 3:18-20, where we are told that the same eventuality will happen to man and animal. They are both made of dust and to dust they will return.
If you get a concordance and look up the Hebrew word used for soul, you will find that both men and animals are called souls.
Notice when God created Adam, at Gen 2:7. Here we are told that God created the man out of the dust, blew into his nostrils the breath of life and the man BECAME a living SOUL. Adam was not given a soul, he BECAME a soul. The Hebrew word for soul is NEPHESH, and is used interchangable for man or beast.
Jesus came to earth to buy back what Adam lost for us, perfect human life. remember that man was created in the image of God and Jesuus came to save imperfect men. Jesus did not give his life for animals, so animals will return to dust, but will not have a chance to be resurrected, 1Tim 2:4-6, Matt 20:28, Eph 1:7, Rom 5:12.
In one way this will be a blessing to people who will live forever on earth, Ps 37:29. When the earth gets comfortably filled children will cease to be born to humans, but we will always have the great pleasure of seeing the little ones of all the animals born, probably throughout all futuure generations.
Many people have had pets, including myself, that we loved just as a person, and we can't bear of never seeing them again. There will be many born that will be similar, that in time we will have our memories dimmed about our dead pets.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

WOW.

Thank you. And welcome to the forum!!! Fur balls n kissins n lickens galore!

I bet everyone will just luv you!

 

[Magic Man]

What does everyone think happens to our animal babies after death? Do they have a soul or spirit? Do you think they end up in the same place?

This was a short topic in my philosophy class... but my professor was an arrogant one. I don't remember where he got the basis for his stance... but he said they have no soul. i think it had something to do with Aristotles levels of being or levels of something...

If there is a heaven, my dogs better be there! I don't believe in heaven, or any afterlife, for that matter, but I can't imagine being perfectly happy without my dogs. How can you have a dog or cat (or any other pet) and not realize that they have as much of a soul as we do?

: hamster : uppy: olarbaby: