Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[reddogs]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Trailblazer]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

I guess you are referring to evil people? I call them evil souls because our soul is who we are as a person, not our body.

I believe that all souls will continue to exist after the physical body dies, and those souls will go to a spiritual world, which is really just a timeless and place-less extension of this world.

I believe that evil souls will be in a state of hell because they will be cut off from God and they will have to realize what they did in this world that was evil.

I believe that evil souls will be far from the good souls in heaven so they won't ever be able to hurt anyone again.

It is debatable whether evil souls will remain in a state of hell for eternity, they might be able to advance and move out of hell by the mercy of God and prayers of others.

 

[Deeje]

I guess you are referring to evil people? I call them evil souls because our soul is who we are as a person, not our body.

According to scripture and ancient Jewish beliefs, the "soul" is a living, breathing creature...human and animal. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An immortal soul is never dead. Jesus likened death to "sleep" (John 11:11-14)

I believe that all souls will continue to exist after the physical body dies, and those souls will go to a spiritual world, which is really just a timeless and place-less extension of this world.

When you invent an immortal soul, you also have to invent places for them to go....the Bible speaks of no spiritual world that is inhabited by former humans.

I believe that evil souls will be in a state of hell because they will be cut off from God and they will have to realize what they did in this world that was evil.

Since nothing of us survives death, according to the Bible, (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) there is no such place as "hell" either. What kind of a fiend enjoys torturing conscious souls in a place where suffering never ends? This sounds more like something the devil would do. A God of love will just withdraw life. He has no desire for the wicked to live....let alone punish them forever.

I believe that evil souls will be far from the good souls in heaven so they won't ever be able to hurt anyone again.

What makes you believe that good people go to heaven? The Bible never contrasts heaven and hell as opposite destinations.
All Israel was given was a choice between life and death. They were told to choose life by obeying the words of their God. Simple.....no heaven or hell, just a promise of a return to life here on earth under Messiah's kingdom......living forever in an earthly paradise. Where was the first paradise? Where did God put humans in the first place? Not heaven. All the restoration prophesies were about the earth.

It is debatable whether evil souls will remain in a state of hell for eternity, they might be able to advance and move out of hell by the mercy of God and prayers of others.

Can you show me where will I find that idea in the Bible? This sounds more 'Catholic', than anything Christ taught.

 

[reddogs]

According to scripture and ancient Jewish beliefs, the "soul" is a living, breathing creature...human and animal. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An immortal soul is never dead. Jesus likened death to "sleep" (John 11:11-14)



When you invent an immortal soul, you also have to invent places for them to go....the Bible speaks of no spiritual world that is inhabited by former humans.



Since nothing of us survives death, according to the Bible, (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) there is no such place as "hell" either. What kind of a fiend enjoys torturing conscious souls in a place where suffering never ends? This sounds more like something the devil would do. A God of love will just withdraw life. He has no desire for the wicked to live....let alone punish them forever.



What makes you believe that good people go to heaven? The Bible never contrasts heaven and hell as opposite destinations.
All Israel was given was a choice between life and death. They were told to choose life by obeying the words of their God. Simple.....no heaven or hell, just a promise of a return to life here on earth under Messiah's kingdom......living forever in an earthly paradise. Where was the first paradise? Where did God put humans in the first place? Not heaven. All the restoration prophesies were about the earth.



Can you show me where will I find that idea in the Bible? This sounds more 'Catholic', than anything Christ taught.

Amen, the Holy Spirit is being poured out and eyes and ears are being opened!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes, exactly!

That is punishment enough, and in line w/ what a Loving God would do!

What right-minded person, even tho imperfect, would literally burn those who were only 'fearful and liars' forever? Revelation 21:8

Since Revelation 20:13-14 says 'death is cast into the Lake of Fire', and you can't hurt or burn it, fire in this instance must be symbolic, a figurative symbol of complete destruction.... something completely gone, forever. And that's exactly what the next chapter, @ Revelation 21:4, states about death... It will be "no more".

 

[Trailblazer]

According to scripture and ancient Jewish beliefs, the "soul" is a living, breathing creature...human and animal. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An immortal soul is never dead. Jesus likened death to "sleep" (John 11:11-14)

The soul is the breath of life in the sense that it enables the physical body to live and breathe, but that does not mean the soul does not continue to exist after the body dies. I never said the soul was a disembodied spirit; it needs a body to work through. In this physical life, the soul works through the physical body, but in the spiritual world, the soul takes on another forum, a spiritual body made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm.

The Bible does not teach resurrection of physical bodies, that is just what most Christians have interpreted the Bible to mean. That all began with the misinterpretation of Adam and Eve, the belief that if they had never eaten the forbidden fruit, then physical bodies would have never died, but it referred to eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body.

The belief that physical bodies were originally created to live forever on Earth is a ludicrous belief at best. If physical bodies never died, then no new people could ever be born, and overpopulation would quickly ensue. Even more ludicrous is that long dead physical bodies will rise from their graves and become reconstituted in flesh. It is very difficult for me to believe that people actually have such beliefs, especially in the modern scientific age. That just demonstrates how much hold religious traditions have on the minds of men. It also demonstrates that the Bible was terribly misconstrued.

The resurrection is purely spiritual, and all the scriptures can be interpreted as such.

John 11

Verse 23-24: "Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Verse 25: "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,"

Verse 26-27: "and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world." ​

Jesus was speaking of eternal life of the soul, NOT physical life of the body.

This can be seen in many other verses. All of these verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

Nobody loses their soul when they die because all souls go to the spiritual world after the physical body dies. Some souls gain eternal life and some just live on and have no eternal life.

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?​

What Jesus meant by "losing his own soul" is that he would lose eternal life.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.” Some Answered Questions, p. 243​

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223​

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225​

“The meaning is that the life of the Kingdom is the life of the spirit, the eternal life, and that it is purified from place, like the spirit of man which has no place. For if you examine the human body, you will not find a special spot or locality for the spirit, for it has never had a place; it is immaterial. It has a connection with the body like that of the sun with this mirror. The sun is not within the mirror, but it has a connection with the mirror.” Some Answered Questions, p. 242​

When you invent an immortal soul, you also have to invent places for them to go....the Bible speaks of no spiritual world that is inhabited by former humans.

The Bible talks about heaven and that is where the souls go, if they were near to God. Heaven is not a place; it is a state of the soul the exists in the spiritual world which is nothing more than an extension of this world. There are many mansions because the state of the soul varies among people, so some people are closer to God than others.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

Since nothing of us survives death, according to the Bible, (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

That is true, nothing of our physical body survives death and so the dead body knows nothing, and that is what these verses are referring to.

there is no such place as "hell" either. What kind of a fiend enjoys torturing conscious souls in a place where suffering never ends? This sounds more like something the devil would do. A God of love will just withdraw life. He has no desire for the wicked to live....let alone punish them forever.

There is no place called hell, but there is a hellish existence people will endure, and it will be the hell they made for themselves by rejecting God and His Manifestations. Hell is simply the punishment for opportunities lost in this world.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

What makes you believe that good people go to heaven? The Bible never contrasts heaven and hell as opposite destinations.

The Bible does not have to explain it all in minutia detail but it is all in the Bible. Otherwise Christians would have never come to believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

All Israel was given was a choice between life and death. They were told to choose life by obeying the words of their God. Simple.....no heaven or hell, just a promise of a return to life here on earth under Messiah's kingdom......living forever in an earthly paradise. Where was the first paradise? Where did God put humans in the first place? Not heaven. All the restoration prophesies were about the earth.

There was no promise to Israel that people would ever return to earth after they died physically. There was a promise of the Kingdom of God on earth under the Messiah, but that Messiah was Baha’u’llah, and the Kingdom of God on earth is for those people who are still living on earth and the generations to follow, not for people who will rise from graves.

God would never require people to live on earth for all of eternity as there is a much better place that awaits the true believers in heaven. There is no paradise on earth, there never was, the story of Adam and Eve was just an allegory.

Can you show me where will I find that idea in the Bible? This sounds more 'Catholic', than anything Christ taught.

I do not know if it is in the Bible and if so where it is, but it is in the Baha’i Writings. I am not sure if these souls will ever get out of hell; that is just something I heard recently.

 

[Deeje]

The Bible does not teach resurrection of physical bodies, that is just what most Christians have interpreted the Bible to mean.

Jesus resurrected three people and healed thousands of their sicknesses and deformities. Not spiritual...but literal, physical resurrections and healing.
The most famous of course was Lazarus. He had been dead for four days when Jesus restored him to life.

Your quotes from John 11 are from Lazarus' sister.

But none of what Jesus said was "spiritual"...it was as literal as the resurrection he performed on Lazarus.

John 11:5-26 tells the story.
"Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazʹa·rus. 6 However, when he heard that Lazʹa·rus was sick, he actually remained in the place where he was for two more days. . . .
11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died, 15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” . . . . .
17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazʹa·rus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethʹa·ny was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

There is nothing allegorical or symbolic about this account. A dear friend had died and Jesus went to where they laid him in his tomb, and brought him back to life.

Isaiah prophesied about the dead physically rising. (Isaiah 26:19) So did Daniel, and the apostle John. (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29)

That all began with the misinterpretation of Adam and Eve, the belief that if they had never eaten the forbidden fruit, then physical bodies would have never died, but it referred to eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body.

Genesis confirms that it was mortal physical life that could have continued forever if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God's one simple command. God did not design humans to die and live somewhere else. This earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven...it was to be man's permanent home.

The fact that God barred the way to the only thing he provided to keep them alive forever, proves that it was this life that God planned for humans. (Genesis 3:22-24) Only when they could not partake of the "tree of life" did they start to die. There is no other mention of death in Eden.....there was no natural cause to end their life, so that they would have to go on living somewhere else in spirit form. God already had a family of spirit beings in heaven and none of them need to be humans first.

 

[Deeje]

The belief that physical bodies were originally created to live forever on Earth is a ludicrous belief at best. If physical bodies never died, then no new people could ever be born, and overpopulation would quickly ensue. Even more ludicrous is that long dead physical bodies will rise from their graves and become reconstituted in flesh. It is very difficult for me to believe that people actually have such beliefs, especially in the modern scientific age. That just demonstrates how much hold religious traditions have on the minds of men. It also demonstrates that the Bible was terribly misconstrued.

You believe that the resurrection is impossible for the Creator? He made the whole universe and you think he can't manufacture some new humans on this small speck? Why do you place limitations on God? He doesn't have any.

Do you understand what the restoration prophesies are about? They are about the earth, not heaven.

Isaiah 11:4-9.....this is what God's anointed one, the future Messiah was to do.....
" 4 He will judge the lowly with fairness,
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.
5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.
6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.
The lion will eat straw like the bull.
8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.
9 They will not cause any harm
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah
As the waters cover the sea."

Isaiah 65:17-25.....
"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.
18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating. . . .

20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
21 They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full,
23 They will not toil for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.
24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah."

This is the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) and it sounds wonderful! So much of this planet is presently uninhabitable.....but when God blesses his arrangement, then the paradise that Adam and his wife lost will be returned. Read Isaiah 35.
His mandate to the first humans was to "fill the earth"...not to overfill it. Once the earth has reached its intended capacity, perhaps God will prepare other worlds for habitation? He doesn't tell us, but it a big universe....who knows what God has planned for it? Won't it be amazing to find out?

 

[Deeje]

The Bible talks about heaven and that is where the souls go, if they were near to God. Heaven is not a place; it is a state of the soul the exists in the spiritual world which is nothing more than an extension of this world. There are many mansions because the state of the soul varies among people, so some people are closer to God than others.

Heaven is the dwelling place of God. It is given by Jesus as God's location...."Our Father who art in heaven".
Some of God's prophets were privileged to have glimpses into that realm and found it hard to describe in human terms.

The only reason why a 'chosen few' go to heaven is because God selected some humans to share rulership with his son. A small number in comparison to earth's population. This was not even revealed until Jesus began his mission. The Jews had no concept of going to heaven, so Jesus had a hard time getting this through to his Jewish disciples. Once anointed with God's spirit at Pentecost, they finally understood.

Every person who rules mankind will have experienced life as a human....including Jesus Christ. They will also be priests, so they will be compassionate intercessors for us. (Revelation 20:6) The majority of humans past and present will live forever on earth as God intended. Suffering, pain and death, along with all who caused it, will be a thing of the past. (Revelation 21:2-4)

There is no place called hell, but there is a hellish existence people will endure, and it will be the hell they made for themselves by rejecting God and His Manifestations. Hell is simply the punishment for opportunities lost in this world.

There is no immortal soul to feel anything after death. That is a satanic lie. The worst punishment a person could suffer under God's law, was death itself. There is nothing more. Why does there need to be?

There was no promise to Israel that people would ever return to earth after they died physically. There was a promise of the Kingdom of God on earth under the Messiah, but that Messiah was Baha’u’llah, and the Kingdom of God on earth is for those people who are still living on earth and the generations to follow, not for people who will rise from graves.

I'm afraid that your prophet never fulfilled the role of Messiah in any way.....the kingdom has not come and the world is getting worse by the day.....When Jesus returns, it will be with an angelic army to destroy the wicked and bring the blessings of the Kingdom to redeemed mankind.....Baha’u’llah did nothing close to that, as far as I can see. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) He died of fever. Christ never got sick because he was not a son of Adam. He inherited none of the defects of sin. Jesus has no tomb because he left no body. Can the same be said for Baha’u’llah?

God would never require people to live on earth for all of eternity as there is a much better place that awaits the true believers in heaven. There is no paradise on earth, there never was, the story of Adam and Eve was just an allegory.

There is no better place for humans than this magnificent earth. It is corrupt humans who have destroyed much of the natural beauty of this planet. Anything that resembles a paradise is now crowded in high rise buildings and tourists trying to get a little bit of what they know should have been theirs all along. Anyone who believes that this is anything close to the life God meant for us needs to read the Bible and understand what humans lost at the beginning.....this is what we get back, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[Shiranui117]

Yes, exactly!

That is punishment enough, and in line w/ what a Loving God would do!

What right-minded person, even tho imperfect, would literally burn those who were only 'fearful and liars' forever? Revelation 21:8

Since Revelation 20:13-14 says 'death is cast into the Lake of Fire', and you can't hurt or burn it, fire in this instance must be symbolic, a figurative symbol of complete destruction.... something completely gone, forever. And that's exactly what the next chapter, @ Revelation 21:4, states about death... It will be "no more".

The soul is the breath of life in the sense that it enables the physical body to live and breathe, but that does not mean the soul does not continue to exist after the body dies. I never said the soul was a disembodied spirit; it needs a body to work through. In this physical life, the soul works through the physical body, but in the spiritual world, the soul takes on another forum, a spiritual body made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm.

The Bible does not teach resurrection of physical bodies, that is just what most Christians have interpreted the Bible to mean. That all began with the misinterpretation of Adam and Eve, the belief that if they had never eaten the forbidden fruit, then physical bodies would have never died, but it referred to eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body.

The belief that physical bodies were originally created to live forever on Earth is a ludicrous belief at best. If physical bodies never died, then no new people could ever be born, and overpopulation would quickly ensue. Even more ludicrous is that long dead physical bodies will rise from their graves and become reconstituted in flesh. It is very difficult for me to believe that people actually have such beliefs, especially in the modern scientific age. That just demonstrates how much hold religious traditions have on the minds of men. It also demonstrates that the Bible was terribly misconstrued.

The resurrection is purely spiritual, and all the scriptures can be interpreted as such.

Jesus was speaking of eternal life of the soul, NOT physical life of the body.

This can be seen in many other verses. All of these verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not physical life of the body:

Nobody loses their soul when they die because all souls go to the spiritual world after the physical body dies. Some souls gain eternal life and some just live on and have no eternal life.

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?​

What Jesus meant by "losing his own soul" is that he would lose eternal life.

The Bible talks about heaven and that is where the souls go, if they were near to God. Heaven is not a place; it is a state of the soul the exists in the spiritual world which is nothing more than an extension of this world. There are many mansions because the state of the soul varies among people, so some people are closer to God than others.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

That is true, nothing of our physical body survives death and so the dead body knows nothing, and that is what these verses are referring to.

There is no place called hell, but there is a hellish existence people will endure, and it will be the hell they made for themselves by rejecting God and His Manifestations. Hell is simply the punishment for opportunities lost in this world.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

The Bible does not have to explain it all in minutia detail but it is all in the Bible. Otherwise Christians would have never come to believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

There was no promise to Israel that people would ever return to earth after they died physically. There was a promise of the Kingdom of God on earth under the Messiah, but that Messiah was Baha’u’llah, and the Kingdom of God on earth is for those people who are still living on earth and the generations to follow, not for people who will rise from graves.

God would never require people to live on earth for all of eternity as there is a much better place that awaits the true believers in heaven. There is no paradise on earth, there never was, the story of Adam and Eve was just an allegory.

I do not know if it is in the Bible and if so where it is, but it is in the Baha’i Writings. I am not sure if these souls will ever get out of hell; that is just something I heard recently.

Jesus resurrected three people and healed thousands of their sicknesses and deformities. Not spiritual...but literal, physical resurrections and healing.
The most famous of course was Lazarus. He had been dead for four days when Jesus restored him to life.

Your quotes from John 11 are from Lazarus' sister.

But none of what Jesus said was "spiritual"...it was as literal as the resurrection he performed on Lazarus.

John 11:5-26 tells the story.

There is nothing allegorical or symbolic about this account. A dear friend had died and Jesus went to where they laid him in his tomb, and brought him back to life.

Isaiah prophesied about the dead physically rising. (Isaiah 26:19) So did Daniel, and the apostle John. (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29)



Genesis confirms that it was mortal physical life that could have continued forever if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God's one simple command. God did not design humans to die and live somewhere else. This earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven...it was to be man's permanent home.

The fact that God barred the way to the only thing he provided to keep them alive forever, proves that it was this life that God planned for humans. (Genesis 3:22-24) Only when they could not partake of the "tree of life" did they start to die. There is no other mention of death in Eden.....there was no natural cause to end their life, so that they would have to go on living somewhere else in spirit form. God already had a family of spirit beings in heaven and none of them need to be humans first.

(Psst, this is the Seventh-Day Adventists DIR, not the Religious Debates section)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

(Psst, this is the Seventh-Day Adventists DIR, not the Religious Debates section)

OK.... Thank you, @Shiranui117 !!

 

[MonkeyFire]

As long as you dont kill them. Though I deal not, hell will burn itself.

 

[Deeje]

Just been reminded that this is the SDA DIR.....*exits quietly*......sorry didn't notice.

 

[Deeje]

Where did you get these ideas? They are sure not shared by any Christians I know. Almost all Christians are waiting to go to heaven. Only a few believe that they will live forever on earth.

Did you ever read this book, written by a Christian? Heaven and Hell

He broke away from the orthodox Christianity and he was not a Trinitarian. In fact, he said that Trinitarians would not even recognize God in heaven. He believed that Jesus ruled heaven.

I do not see how that is possible because the earth cannot accommodate that many people.


It is not about what there needs to be, it is about what is, what God created. The soul is a sign of God and it never dies, it lives forever, but those who are far from God will become victims to self and passion and will sink into the depths, which could be thought of as spiritual death or hell.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

It was never the job of Baha’u’llah to build the Kingdom of God on earth, it will be the job of humans to build that, following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah revealed. The Messianic Age is an age that will unfold over a long period of time and we are only at the beginning of it, and it will get worse before it gets better. Humanity did not get this way overnight and it humanity is not going to suddenly be changed in an instant. The old world order has to fall down before a new world order can rise in its stead, and the old world order is crumbling all over the world right now.

This is a fantasy that Jesus is going to come floating down from heaven on the clouds with an army who will restore the wicked and redeem mankind. Mankind has to redeem itself and that is why we have free will… God has never done the work for us so there is no reason to believe that God suddenly decided to do an about face. That would be out of character for God.

All those verses about trumpets and angels are allegorical, not literal. The trumpets sounded alright when the Bab and Baha’u’lalh came to earth, and everyone who was where they sounded heard them, it was quite a tumult.

There is no competition between Jesus and Baha’u’llah because they are both the same Spirit of God.

You want to turn back the clock to what the earth was like 6000 years ago but that is not possible nor what God ever intended. Humans progress over time, they do not regress. As humans change society changes the way people live also has to change.

You cannot know that there is no better place than this earth because you have not seen what is in the spiritual world. Moreover, many people see this world as a torture chamber, a storehouse of suffering. There is no material world that will not be without suffering, because the material world is the cause of all our suffering. Only after we enter the spiritual world will there be no more suffering, if we played our cards right in this world, which is preparation for the spiritual world.

I am sure it is better than this world but we have not been told what it is like because we could not understand it from this life and also because if we did know what it is like we would long for death. There is a story of a man who knew Baha’u’llah and he insisted that Baha’u’llah tell him what the spiritual world was like, but Baha’u’llah refused. Finally Baha’u’llah gave in to his request and the man committed suicide.

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

See my post above your last response.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just been reminded that this is the SDA DIR.....*exits quietly*......sorry didn't notice.

I just moved my last three posts to a new thread because I did not want to be where I did not belong.

 

[Trailblazer]

See my post above your last response.

I just moved my last three posts to a new thread because I did not want to be where I did not belong.

 

[Trailblazer]

(Psst, this is the Seventh-Day Adventists DIR, not the Religious Debates section)

Thanks for pointing that out.
I just moved my last three posts to Religious Debates.

 

[reddogs]

I guess you are referring to evil people? I call them evil souls because our soul is who we are as a person, not our body.

I believe that all souls will continue to exist after the physical body dies, and those souls will go to a spiritual world, which is really just a timeless and place-less extension of this world.

I believe that evil souls will be in a state of hell because they will be cut off from God and they will have to realize what they did in this world that was evil.

I believe that evil souls will be far from the good souls in heaven so they won't ever be able to hurt anyone again.

It is debatable whether evil souls will remain in a state of hell for eternity, they might be able to advance and move out of hell by the mercy of God and prayers of others.

The Bible show us who are the wicked, and gives us the answer to what is sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[reddogs]

According to scripture and ancient Jewish beliefs, the "soul" is a living, breathing creature...human and animal. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An immortal soul is never dead. Jesus likened death to "sleep" (John 11:11-14)



When you invent an immortal soul, you also have to invent places for them to go....the Bible speaks of no spiritual world that is inhabited by former humans.



Since nothing of us survives death, according to the Bible, (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) there is no such place as "hell" either. What kind of a fiend enjoys torturing conscious souls in a place where suffering never ends? This sounds more like something the devil would do. A God of love will just withdraw life. He has no desire for the wicked to live....let alone punish them forever.



What makes you believe that good people go to heaven? The Bible never contrasts heaven and hell as opposite destinations.
All Israel was given was a choice between life and death. They were told to choose life by obeying the words of their God. Simple.....no heaven or hell, just a promise of a return to life here on earth under Messiah's kingdom......living forever in an earthly paradise. Where was the first paradise? Where did God put humans in the first place? Not heaven. All the restoration prophesies were about the earth.



Can you show me where will I find that idea in the Bible? This sounds more 'Catholic', than anything Christ taught.

Amen!

Take a look at the words of Christ Himself...

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

They will be separated from God forever and ever, it is the end of sin and sinners as they will be destroyed and perish.

Now, Christ will take the saints to heaven when He comes at the Second Coming as He promised.

John 14:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
"1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

 

[reddogs]

Yes, exactly!

That is punishment enough, and in line w/ what a Loving God would do!

What right-minded person, even tho imperfect, would literally burn those who were only 'fearful and liars' forever? Revelation 21:8

Since Revelation 20:13-14 says 'death is cast into the Lake of Fire', and you can't hurt or burn it, fire in this instance must be symbolic, a figurative symbol of complete destruction.... something completely gone, forever. And that's exactly what the next chapter, @ Revelation 21:4, states about death... It will be "no more".

Yes, we see it over and over, its perish, and the Bible most assuredly teaches it, but the Greek pagan ideas infiltrated so much, that many Christians think the wicked get eternal life which is not scriptural. The fire from God does destroy and consume, we can see it all through scripture, take a look at 2 Peter 3:8-13:

"8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,
wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Now look at what Christian scholars and others say on the matter. Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902) was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech. He said:
"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this." [Cited by Edward White in Life in Christ, (1878), p. 365.]

In his book in a note on 1.Corinthians 15:18 he says:
"By `perish' the Apostle here apparently means `pass out of existence'." [Notes by Earnest Hampden-Cook, editor and reviser of third edition of The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Richard Francis Weymouth.]

On Hebrews 9:28 we read:
"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', 'perish' , to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad." {Ibid.]
On Revelation 14:11:
"There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word `punishment' or `correction' in Matthew 25:46 gives itself no indication of time."
On Revelation 20:10:
"The Lake of fire implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction." [Ibid.]

Dr. Lyman Abbott (1835-1922) was a Congregationlist pastor and editor of Christian Union and The Outlook. He wrote:
"Outside of the walls of Jerusalem, in the valley of Gehenna, was kept perpetually burning a fire, on which the offal of the city was thrown to be destroyed. This is the hell fire of the New Testament. Christ warns his auditors that persistence in sin will make them offal to be cast out from the holy city, to be destroyed. The worm that dieth not was the worm devouring the carcasses, and is equally clearly a symbol not of torture but of destruction." [Lyman Abbott, That Unknown Country, 1889. ]

"The notion that the final punishment of sin is continuance in sin and suffering is also based in part on, what seems to me, a false philosophy of man. This philosophy is that man is by nature immortal. The conviction has grown on me, that according to the teaching of both of science and Scripture, man is by nature an animal, and like all other animals mortal; that immortality belongs only to the spiritual life; and that spiritual life is possible only in communion and contact with God; that, in short, immortality was not conferred upon the race in creation whether it would or not, but is conferred in redemption, upon all those of the race who choose life and immortality through Jesus Christ our Lord." [Ibid.]

Dr. Edward Beecher (1803-1895) was a Congregationalist theologian and president of Illinois College. He stated:
"If [the Bible] does not recognize, nay, it expressly denies the natural and inherent immortality of the soul. It assures us that God only hath immortality. (1.Timothy 6:16). By this we understand that He has immortality in the highest sense - that is, inherent immortality. All existence besides Himself He created, and He upholds. Men are not, as Plato taught, self-existent, eternal beings, immortal in their very nature. ... There is no inherent immortality of the soul as such. What God created He sustains in being, and can annihilate at will." [Edward Beecher, Doctrine of Scriptural Retribution, p. 58. ]

So its something that Christian scholars and theologians recognize as in the Bible.