Another Anti-Small Business Law From The Obama Administration

[McBell]

If you want to get all old school "what did the Founding Fathers mean?" about it you could argue that the Second Amendment protects the right to bear flintlocks and that's it.
Tom

Using that "logic", the media is only protected if they only use printing presses.

 

[McBell]

It seems that the Obama administration is so anti-firearms that they have enacted another draconian anti-business law(?).
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/oba...ail&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-bfae738ddf-21046165

We now see the direction that the Democrats want to take.

"how can we generate more funds?"
"Lets charge gunsmiths a yearly fee to be gunsmiths."

 

[metis]

Guess you didn't read it did you. As it is plain to see
First you (trying to stay within the guidelines of this forum) are totally mistaken about the issue. This is not about federal law vs state law as you seem to willy-nilly think.
The State Dept is saying that gunsmiths are manufactures of firearms if they alter a firearm beyond just "drop in parts"
The Gun Control Act already states what "manufacturing" is and how it applies to gunsmiths. Just to remind you the GCA is a FEDERAL LAW
Please in your esteemed knowledge please explain why the State Dept has any say over any firearm matter "as long as it does not pertain to export"
From: https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/07/25/ddtc-issues-guidance-on-itar-registration/
On Friday July 22, 2016, the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (“DDTC”) released a letter issuing guidance on the requirement of firearm manufacturers and gunsmiths to register with DDTC under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (“ITAR”).

So what ***** business does the Dept of State issuing regulations to gunsmiths that DO NOT ENGAGE IN EXPORT.
The ITAR control the export and import of defense-related articles and services on the United States Munitions List (USML)

For some reason you seemingly cannot get it through your head, even though I explained why I posted what I originally did, namely that I was not commenting on any specific law but just tried to explain that federal law in most cases takes priority over state and local laws if there's a conflict because of the Supremacy Clause in the VI Amendment. As for the above, I'm really not part & parcel to that discussion, nor do I have any particular interest in doing so.

 

[esmith]

For some reason you seemingly cannot get it through your head, even though I explained why I posted what I originally did, namely that I was not commenting on any specific law but just tried to explain that federal law in most cases takes priority over state and local laws if there's a conflict because of the Supremacy Clause in the VI Amendment. As for the above, I'm really not part & parcel to that discussion, nor do I have any particular interest in doing so.

Then why are you even commenting about it. Your statement has absolutely no bearing on the issue. However, it seems that you can not get it through your head can you. Where in this discussion is there any mention of what your blabbering about in the above statement. Get it though your head this issue DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH STATE OR LOCAL LAWS. Sorry to yell but I don't have a 2x4 I can use.

 

[metis]

Then why are you even commenting about it. Your statement has absolutely no bearing on the issue. However, it seems that you can not get it through your head can you. Where in this discussion is there any mention of what your blabbering about in the above statement. Get it though your head this issue DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH STATE OR LOCAL LAWS. Sorry to yell but I don't have a 2x4 I can use.

You're on a roll lately with the above and also some of your other recent posts that you've messed up on. Seems to have been a really bad week for you, so maybe chill out and get some rest.

As I've mentioned at least twice, federal law usually dominates state & local law if they conflict because of Article VI, plus federal law can be adjusted along with way. However, states and local communities can take this to court if they feel that the fed, including the State Department, has overreached itself, and then the courts will decide. Therefore, instead of just whining, maybe encourage a law suit to challenge the change and see what the courts decide. Is this really that difficult for you to understand?

 

[esmith]

You're on a roll lately with the above and also some of your other recent posts that you've messed up on. Seems to have been a really bad week for you, so maybe chill out and get some rest.

As I've mentioned at least twice, federal law usually dominates state & local law if they conflict because of Article VI, plus federal law can be adjusted along with way. However, states and local communities can take this to court if they feel that the fed, including the State Department, has overreached itself, and then the courts will decide. Therefore, instead of just whining, maybe encourage a law suit to challenge the change and see what the courts decide. Is this really that difficult for you to understand?

I might "chill out" if some people would address the issue instead of interjecting something that as absolutely nada, squat, nothing to do with the State Department redefining what "manufacturing" is when it comes to firearms.
So one more time. How does what you are saying have anything to do with the issue that I brought forward.

Just to be very very clear THERE ARE NO LOCAL OR STATE LAWS OR DIRECTIVES THAT DEFINE MANUFACTURING WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Gun Control Act already states what "manufacturing" is and how it applies to gunsmiths. Just to remind you the GCA is a FEDERAL LAW

Different federal laws can define the same term in different ways. This is why, until the late 80s, the same vehicle could be classified as a "truck" or "passenger vehicle" in one way for import laws, another for emissions standards, another for safety requirements, etc. It took a deliberate effort to harmonize the definitions across all federal laws.

Even if "manufacturing" as it relates to gunsmiths is defined in a specific way for one law, this doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how it's interpreted for other laws.

Edit: BTW - I looked up the Gun Control Act. You misrepresented the law. It does NOT define "manufacturing". It does define "manufacturer" ("The term 'manufacturer' means any person engaged in the manufacture of firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution"), but it doesn't define "manufacture" or "manufacturing".

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/90/hr17735/text

 

[esmith]

Different federal laws can define the same term in different ways. This is why, until the late 80s, the same vehicle could be classified as a "truck" or "passenger vehicle" in one way for import laws, another for emissions standards, another for safety requirements, etc. It took a deliberate effort to harmonize the definitions across all federal laws.

Even if "manufacturing" as it relates to gunsmiths is defined in a specific way for one law, this doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how it's interpreted for other laws.

Edit: BTW - I looked up the Gun Control Act. You misrepresented the law. It does NOT define "manufacturing". It does define "manufacturer" ("The term 'manufacturer' means any person engaged in the manufacture of firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution"), but it doesn't define "manufacture" or "manufacturing".

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/90/hr17735/text

Does a manufacturer do manufacturing? Guess not in your language. But in U.S. English
from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manufacturer

manufacturer
one that manufactures; especially : an employer of workers in manufacturing


See manufacturer defined for English-language learners

No use discussing this with you. You have your mind made up and no facts will change it. Have a nice day

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does a manufacturer do manufacturing? Guess not in your language. But in U.S. English
from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manufacturer

Since you have the dictionary handy, look up "lie"... i.e. the thing you've been caught in.

No use discussing this with you. You have your mind made up and no facts will change it. Have a nice day

Facts can change my mind. Misrepresentations of the facts won't.

 

[esmith]

Since you have the dictionary handy, look up "lie"... i.e. the thing you've been caught in.


Facts can change my mind. Misrepresentations of the facts won't.

You do realize that the State Department redefined this to comply with the ITAR (International Traffic Of Arms Regulations)
ITAR
All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC)
From the State Dept

“Guidance” on the “Applicability of the ITAR Registration Requirement to Firearms Manufacturers and Gunsmiths.”

This document involves redefining gunsmithing activities as “manufacturing” under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and requires many gunsmiths to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) and pay an annual fee beginning at $2,250.

So why do gunsmiths that are not exporters, and brokers have to register with the DDTC and comply with ITAR? Come on give me a logical reason.

 

[Underhill]

You do realize that the State Department redefined this to comply with the ITAR (International Traffic Of Arms Regulations)
ITAR
All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC)
From the State Dept

So why do gunsmiths that are not exporters, and brokers have to register with the DDTC and comply with ITAR? Come on give me a logical reason.

Because there is a grey area between manufacturing and fabricating firearms. If a shop, as one locally does, employs 3 or 4 guys in the back who work on guns, makes a few custom guns a year are they manufacturers? What if they make 20? 50? Where is the line?

The state department simply decided the line is at 1. I don't agree it's the right way to go, but it isn't all that hard to understand why they did it.

 

[esmith]

Because there is a grey area between manufacturing and fabricating firearms. If a shop, as one locally does, employs 3 or 4 guys in the back who work on guns, makes a few custom guns a year are they manufacturers? What if they make 20? 50? Where is the line?

The state department simply decided the line is at 1. I don't agree it's the right way to go, but it isn't all that hard to understand why they did it.

So you have no problem with the person who owns the LGS (local gun store) and does a little gunsmithing being required to follow the new regulations?
You do realize that the the ITAR and DDTC only deals with export/import regulations? You do realize that the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms is responsible for enforcing the Gun Control Act of 1968 which regulates the manufacture, importation, distribution, and sale of firearms.
And no it is almost impossible to understand why Foggy Bottom is involved with persons or shops that DO NOT import or export firearms.

 

[esmith]

Since you have the dictionary handy, look up "lie"... i.e. the thing you've been caught in.


Facts can change my mind. Misrepresentations of the facts won't.

What's the matter got to go ballistic when you are proven to be, how should I say....wrong?

 

[Underhill]

So you have no problem with the person who owns the LGS (local gun store) and does a little gunsmithing being required to follow the new regulations?

I didn't say this. This is exactly the kind of nonsense regulation you get when the people who own guns, use guns and make guns aren't in the room. But then with a democrat in the white house, they wouldn't be caught dead in that room.

You do realize that the the ITAR and DDTC only deals with export/import regulations? You do realize that the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms is responsible for enforcing the Gun Control Act of 1968 which regulates the manufacture, importation, distribution, and sale of firearms.
And no it is almost impossible to understand why Foggy Bottom is involved with persons or shops that DO NOT import or export firearms.

Sure it is. They don't want just anyone to be able to make guns at their dining room table. This will not stop them, but it will allow them to prosecute anyone who gets caught.

You may not like it. But that doesn't mean they have no reasons.

The right is every bit as notorious for manipulating unrelated regulations to fit their agenda. Ideology trumps such petty notions as common sense and intention of the original laws every time on both sides of the aisle.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do realize that the State Department redefined this to comply with the ITAR (International Traffic Of Arms Regulations)
ITAR
All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC)
From the State Dept

So why do gunsmiths that are not exporters, and brokers have to register with the DDTC and comply with ITAR? Come on give me a logical reason.

One thing at a time. Why did you say that the Gun Control Act defines "manufacturing" when it actually doesn't? Were you being deliberately misleading or did you just not bother to read it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's the matter got to go ballistic when you are proven to be, how should I say....wrong?

If you think I've "gone ballistic", you're misinterpreting my tone.

I'm not particularly upset (or surprised) that I caught you misrepresenting the facts.

 

[esmith]

One thing at a time. Why did you say that the Gun Control Act defines "manufacturing" when it actually doesn't? Were you being deliberately misleading or did you just not bother to read it?

18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(i): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.92: IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
Any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
ATF Rul. 2010-10
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from firearms industry members asking whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths who would be engaged in the business of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or manufacturer are required to be licensed as manufacturers and abide by the requirements imposed on manufacturers.
In recent years, licensed firearms importers and manufacturers have contracted certain firearms manufacturing activities on their behalf to specialized licensed firearms manufacturers. Such activities include applying special coatings and treatments to firearms (e.g., bluing, anodizing, powder-coating, plating, polishing, heat/chemical treating). This has caused confusion over which importers and manufacturers are required to identify/ mark firearms and maintain permanent records of importation or manufacture. For this reason, licensed importers and manufacturers have asked whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths, who are not required to mark firearms and keep production records, may engage in such manufacturing activities on their behalf.

40
CHAPTER 7. MANUFACTURING NFA FIREARMS
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(i): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.92: IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS

Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
In contrast, a dealer-gunsmith may make or acquire his/her own firearms, and repair, modify, embellish, refurbish, or install parts in or on those firearms. If the dealer-gunsmith then sells or distributes those firearms for livelihood and profit, the dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his/her own business of manufacturing firearms. A person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution is required to be licensed as a manufacturer, identify/mark all firearms manufactured, maintain permanent records of manufacture, submit annual manufacturing reports, and pay any taxes imposed on firearm manufacturers. A licensed dealer-gunsmith who becomes licensed as a manufacturer must also segregate all firearms manufactured for that business separately from firearms for which gunsmithing services are being performed.
To facilitate inspection and ensure that ATF can determine that a licensed dealer-gunsmith is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for his own sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, licensees may take the following steps:
(1) maintain a copy of the current, active license of all contracted licensees;
(2) maintain a copy of the contract and all instructions for gunsmithing services rendered;
(3) maintain a copy of the invoices for gunsmithing services;
(4) timely and accurately reflect all firearms acquisitions and dispositions consistent with the contract for gunsmithing services rendered; and
(5) in the case of a licensed dealer-gunsmith, maintain required bound acquisition and disposition records for all gunsmithing activities separate from other dealer’s records.
Unless licensees take these steps, ATF may presume that a particular dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his own business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, and take corrective administrative or other enforcement action.
Identification of Firearms
The GCA at 18 U.S.C. 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and importers must “identify” each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) further require importers and manufacturers to identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel - at a minimum depth. Section 478.92(a)(2) specifies that a “firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of … must be identified as required by this section.”
Because dealer-gunsmiths are not required to identify firearms manufactured, it is incumbent upon the importer or manufacturer, prior to shipping firearms to a dealer-gunsmith for gunsmithing services, to mark them with a serial number and other required information. With regard to frames and receivers shipped separately, section 478.92(a)(2) provides, in part, that the manufacturer or importer must mark all frames and receivers prior to shipment with all information required by section 478.92 (i.e., serial number, model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin). This will ensure that the frames and receivers can be traced by ATF in the event they are lost or stolen during the manufacturing process.
Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
This ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed upon importers, manufacturers, and dealer-gunsmiths under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and does not apply to persons making or manufacturing firearms subject to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5801 et. seq.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Just thought I'd drop this into a thread that is about "how Obama is against small business, blah, blah, blah...."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rohitar...years-for-small-business-growth/#4a910b031879
and
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/obamas-numbers-july-2015-update/

 

[tytlyf]

Just thought I'd drop this into a thread that is about "how Obama is against small business, blah, blah, blah...."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rohitar...years-for-small-business-growth/#4a910b031879
and
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/obamas-numbers-july-2015-update/

You should listen to RW media, they lie to their audience daily telling them the economy is in horrible shape. They like to complain about stagnant wages, but they're the reason wages haven't gone up. They like to complain about 95 million people out of the labor force, but not tell their audience that number includes elderly retired people, children and full-time students. They like to complain about more people on food stamps, but are the reason behind it.

Never trust republican establishment corporate media, it's all a ruse.