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Another case of observed speciation

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What's lacking, in your opinion?
In math, even going back to elementary school, we learn to cross-check our problems, and what's missing is that "cross-check". The d.n.a. evidence is quite compelling but lacks that aspect.
What exactly do you think evolutionary biologists should guard against?
Assuming that any evidence that we may favor as supposedly being complete and is somehow the last word.

Is there some other scenario you think is likely to replace UCA?
None that I know of with the exception that it's conceivable that there may have been more than one "UCA" very early on. One thing that q.m. teaches us is that the unexpected can, and sometimes does, happen, and this understanding is affecting many branches of science. And the enemy of this understanding is "certainty".
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
In math, even going back to elementary school, we learn to cross-check our problems, and what's missing is that "cross-check". The d.n.a. evidence is quite compelling but lacks that aspect.
Assuming that any evidence that we may favor as supposedly being complete and is somehow the last word.

None that I know of with the exception that it's conceivable that there may have been more than one "UCA" very early on. One thing that q.m. teaches us is that the unexpected can, and sometimes does, happen, and this understanding is affecting many branches of science. And the enemy of this understanding is "certainty".

Given the similarities of metabolism, the likelihood of more than one UCA is very low. Even the fact that all known life uses the same amino acids, the same nucleic acids, etc leads to this conclusion. The alternative, where there is more than one life of separate descent, would lead, we would suspect, to different amino acids being used as well as fundamentally different metabolisms.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
In math, even going back to elementary school, we learn to cross-check our problems, and what's missing is that "cross-check". The d.n.a. evidence is quite compelling but lacks that aspect.
But it isn't lacking in that aspect. Phylogenies constructed via genetic data are cross-checked against ones generated from proteins and anatomical data, for example.

Assuming that any evidence that we may favor as supposedly being complete and is somehow the last word.
Are you operating on the assumption that scientific theory = absolute certainty?

None that I know of with the exception that it's conceivable that there may have been more than one "UCA" very early on.
The closest to that is that, rather than a single population of the common ancestor, there were multiple populations of ancestors that regularly swapped genetic material. But that really isn't an alternative to UCA as it is a modification of it.

One thing that q.m. teaches us is that the unexpected can, and sometimes does, happen, and this understanding is affecting many branches of science. And the enemy of this understanding is "certainty".
Again, you seem to have a misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Given the similarities of metabolism, the likelihood of more than one UCA is very low. Even the fact that all known life uses the same amino acids, the same nucleic acids, etc leads to this conclusion. The alternative, where there is more than one life of separate descent, would lead, we would suspect, to different amino acids being used as well as fundamentally different metabolisms.
Quite possibly but there's really no way of telling for sure. Again, I think the UCA is likely, but I'm not willing to bet the house on it yet. To me, it's best to delve on the side of caution. If we compare the UCA to either ToE, for example, the former has significantly less going for it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Are you operating on the assumption that scientific theory = absolute certainty?
No, I am not.

Again, you seem to have a misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is.
I have shown you definitions from two scientific sources that matches the basic definition that I was taught even during my undergrad studies, so I'm sticking with what I both learned and used with other scientists for over five decades now. If you want to use another definition of your own making, I guess you can go for that, but this conversation with you has just come to an end.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Interbreeding of a native species and an intruder species has produced a new species. It is genetically isolated, has distinct behaviors, etc.

So, once again, we have evolution in process actually observed, crossing species barriers.

'But they are all just finches', I am sure the creationists will say, thereby ignoring the whole point.

Bird seen becoming new species
Evolutionistas! So desperate. :)
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
No, I am not.
Then I guess I don't understand your position. UCA is long-standing explanation (IOW, it's not a new proposal) that has lots of substantiating evidence, including cross-checking (which you previously said needed to be done).

I have shown you definitions from two scientific sources that matches the basic definition that I was taught even during my undergrad studies, so I'm sticking with what I both learned and used with other scientists for over five decades now. If you want to use another definition of your own making, I guess you can go for that,
Except that UCA meets the criteria for scientific theory given in the definition you posted: "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, pre-defined, protocol of observations and experiments."

Well substantiated? Check.

Some aspect of the natural world? Check.

Acquired through the scientific method? Check.

Repeatedly tested and confirmed? Check.

OTOH, "hypothesis" is typically defined as: "A hypothesis is a suggested solution for an unexplained occurrence that does not fit into current accepted scientific theory" or "an idea that proposes a tentative explanation about a phenomenon or a narrow set of phenomena observed in the natural world."

Just a suggestion? No.

For an unexplained occurrence? No?

Doesn't fit in an accepted scientific theory? No.

Tentative? No.

About a narrow set of phenomena? No.

So UCA is clearly far more in the category of theory than hypothesis, which is why the professional literature regularly refers to it as a theory.

but this conversation with you has just come to an end.
Ok, but there's no need to take your ball and go home. I mean, if you are a little wrong on this, so what? Learn and move on. :)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Interbreeding of a native species and an intruder species has produced a new species. It is genetically isolated, has distinct behaviors, etc.

So, once again, we have evolution in process actually observed, crossing species barriers.

'But they are all just finches', I am sure the creationists will say, thereby ignoring the whole point.

Bird seen becoming new species
I have never seen a “creationists” who denies speciation, in fact speciation is a very important part of the flood model. There is not even a clear definition for specie, (just like there is not a clear definition for most words) so it is very easy to claim speciation when you have an umbrella of many possible definitions.

I am not claiming that YEC are correct, (I am not a YEC) but you are making a straw man.

Besides, new information was not added, + the fact that random mutations where not responsible for this event. (Hybridisation WAS THE MECHANISM not random mutations).

So you will not impress any YEC with this finding. In any case you provided an example of “fast speciation” which is what flood models require.

Hybridisation has limitations,
You will never get worm to human evolution, by the mechanism of Hybridisation
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ok, but there's no need to take your ball and go home. I mean, if you are a little wrong on this, so what?
Nah, I'd rather discuss such things with adults who are not so much into themselves and much more into actual science. Thus you're now will be a welcome addition to my ignore list right after this post.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Nah, I'd rather discuss such things with adults who are not so much into themselves and much more into actual science.
??????? I said nothing about myself and I've been discussing actual science, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thus you're now will be a welcome addition to my ignore list right after this post.
It's fascinating to see how some people react to being wrong on something. Here, simply being mistaken on a tiny little thing is enough to make you throw a tantrum, when the adult thing to do would have been to either admit the error or at least simply say "We'll have to just disagree on that".
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I have never seen a “creationists” who denies speciation, in fact speciation is a very important part of the flood model. There is not even a clear definition for specie, (just like there is not a clear definition for most words) so it is very easy to claim speciation when you have an umbrella of many possible definitions.

I am not claiming that YEC are correct, (I am not a YEC) but you are making a straw man.

Besides, new information was not added, + the fact that random mutations where not responsible for this event. (Hybridisation WAS THE MECHANISM not random mutations).

So you will not impress any YEC with this finding. In any case you provided an example of “fast speciation” which is what flood models require.

Hybridisation has limitations,
You will never get worm to human evolution, by the mechanism of Hybridisation
There we go again - worm to human, banana to human, single celled to human. Wonderful technique to place such extremes and total misunderstanding of evolution. That is the desperate act of Creationists or intelligent design advocates. Scratch marks on a stone showing addition to computer. If you did not have the evidence of what happened in between you would say it was not possible. Fortunately we know how we progressed from addition marks to the computer and we are gathering the information for evolution.
Flood myth again? Really?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
That's a rather bizarre way to breed specific characteristics. How does that work genetically? You know, where the white of the rods close to where a flock conceives determines the color of the offspring?

Seems rather shaky to me.
Not actually what it says.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Interbreeding of a native species and an intruder species has produced a new species. It is genetically isolated, has distinct behaviors, etc.

So, once again, we have evolution in process actually observed, crossing species barriers.

'But they are all just finches', I am sure the creationists will say, thereby ignoring the whole point.

Bird seen becoming new species

I thought what makes a species is the ability to interbreed. Now if the bird successfully copulated with a mouse or vice versa that would be evolution!
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I thought what makes a species is the ability to interbreed. Now if the bird successfully copulated with a mouse or vice versa that would be evolution!
Related species can interbreed, but I do not think that a mouse and bird are quite related enough to interbreed so that would probable not be evolution.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I thought what makes a species is the ability to interbreed. Now if the bird successfully copulated with a mouse or vice versa that would be evolution!
Interesting article tries to address this question - "Baffling Genetic Barrier Prevents Similar Animals from Interbreeding" By Emily Singer, Quanta Magazine on August 21, 2014. Tries to understand what is happening in the wild with respect to genetics.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Oh please Polymath, I may not have a science degree but I'm not that stupid. The very idea that chickens are descended from dinosaurs is extremely far fetched when you have nothing solid to back up the assertion. Show us the evidence that this is true.


Now, is that the dumbed-down version that you will then dismiss for not using enough scientific terminology, or the actual publications that you will dismiss for having too much jargon?

Here is your favorite dumbed-down site:

The origin of birds

And here is some jargony research-based stuff, but still sort of dumbed-down:

Are Birds Really Dinosaurs?

Just a sampling:

The first birds shared the following major skeletal characteristics with many coelurosaurian dinosaurs (especially those of their own clade, the Maniraptora, which includes Velociraptor):
  1. Pubis (one of the three bones making up the vertebrate pelvis) shifted from an anterior to a more posterior orientation (see Saurischia), and bearing a small distal "boot".
  2. Elongated arms and forelimbs and clawed manus (hands).
  3. Large orbits (eye openings in the skull).
  4. Flexible wrist with a semi-lunate carpal (wrist bone).
  5. Hollow, thin-walled bones.
  6. 3-fingered opposable grasping manus (hand), 4-toed pes (foot); but supported by 3 main toes.
  7. Reduced, posteriorly stiffened tail.
  8. Elongated metatarsals (bones of the feet between the ankle and toes).
  9. S-shaped curved neck.
  10. Erect, digitgrade (ankle held well off the ground) stance with feet postitioned directly below the body.
  11. Similar eggshell microstructure.
  12. Teeth with a constriction between the root and the crown.
  13. Functional basis for wing power stroke present in arms and pectoral girdle (during motion, the arms were swung down and forward, then up and backwards, describing a "figure-eight" when viewed laterally).
  14. Expanded pneumatic sinuses in the skull.
  15. Five or more vertebrae incorporated into the sacrum (hip).
  16. Straplike scapula (shoulder blade).
  17. Clavicles (collarbone) fused to form a furcula (wishbone).
  18. Hingelike ankle joint, with movement mostly restricted to the fore-aft plane.
  19. Secondary bony palate (nostrils open posteriorly in throat).
  20. Possibly feathers... this awaits more study. Small, possibly feathered dinosaurs were recently found in China. It appears that many coelurosaurs were cloaked in an external fibrous covering that could be called "protofeathers."

But sure, it is all guesswork and jargon...




And your lying eyes:

3458203.jpg




Also - still waiting for you to explain how bacteria "make themselves immune" to antibiotics.
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought what makes a species is the ability to interbreed. Now if the bird successfully copulated with a mouse or vice versa that would be evolution!
If a bird could successfully reproduce with a mouse, then the theory of evolution--along with a good deal of what we know about genetics and molecular biology--would be falsified.
 
Interbreeding of a native species and an intruder species has produced a new species. It is genetically isolated, has distinct behaviors, etc.

So, once again, we have evolution in process actually observed, crossing species barriers.

'But they are all just finches', I am sure the creationists will say, thereby ignoring the whole point.

Bird seen becoming new species
Speciation is fine. These changes will never accumulate to form a new " kind" though. That type of accumulation has never been seen heck these scientists are amazed at seeing a finch turn to another finch. Do you see the jump from an observation to an assumption here?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Speciation is fine. These changes will never accumulate to form a new " kind" though. That type of accumulation has never been seen heck these scientists are amazed at seeing a finch turn to another finch. Do you see the jump from an observation to an assumption here?

Since nobody has ever given, a coherent definition of the term 'kind', that isn't an objection at all.

Yes, the finch becomes another species of finch. And primates become other species of primates. And mammals become other species of mammals.

Evolution arises from modifications of what is already there through changes over many generations not by large scale changes all at once.

A good analogy has to do with languages. Languages change over time, usually very small changes over the course of, say, a decade or two. Every generation can easily understand both the previous generation and the following generation. So, in the course of, say, a century, there is no change in the 'kind' of the language.

But, if you look at what happens over the course of centuries, languages can change by very large amounts. I would challenge you to read anything written in Old English without training. And, over the course of thousands of years, languages *do* change 'kinds': French and Spanish are, in any reasonable sense, different 'kinds' of languages. But they both developed from Latin over the course of the last couple thousand years.

You are complaining that we see the small-scale changes in finches that are expected under evolution and that are analogous to the small scale changes in languages over the course of a year. But you then claim that it is impossible for large scale changes to occur like those between Latin and French because such changes haven't been seen in very recent studies. In the case of evolution, large scale changes are accumulations of these small scale changes over the course of thousands of generations. That means we don't see them in a mere century. But we *do* see them in the fossil record.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Are you telling me that as a Catholic you can accept both evolution and creation on faith? If both are hypothetical, on what basis can you choose one over the other? Evidence?

Are you telling me that nature is not evidence, in and of itself, for an Intelligent mind behind it all? Complexity of that magnitude requires planning. There is a planner.....but he is a Creator who, according to God's word, created the world and everything in it.....in carefully planned stages. At the end of each period, he expressed his satisfaction thus far. Six "days" (obviously not 24 hour days) and everything was "good". After the creation of man, he upped the ante to "very good"......an indication that the Creator was pleased with his own efforts.

I think that those who want to believe both creation and science need to pick a lane. The lines appear to be too obscure so that they think they can drift from one lane to the other without sacrificing the truth. Having a foot in both camps means that they don't need to choose. God says you do. Either he is real and achieved everything he says he did.....or he's not and it's all just a colossal unplanned accident.
Prove it. :)
 
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