This is our choice and I will always wish for you all the best choices this life and our life to come can offer.
Regards Tony
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Another Interesting Curiosity of the Baha'i religion
- Thread starter Buddha Dharma
- Start date
This is our choice and I will always wish for you all the best choices this life and our life to come can offer.
Regards Tony
It would appear to me that your issue, @Buddha Dharma relates to how, in the Bahá’í Faith, different religions are seen as parts and parcels of one Divine Truth. Is this so?
Bahá’u’lláh teaches us that among these various Figures, there are two stations:
the station of pure abstraction and unity and the station of distinction
(To offer you a bit of a visual, think of how white light passes through a prism, revealing the seven colors.)
In the former, all of the Manifestations of God have the same Essence, the same Spirit and “proclaim the same Faith”.
In another passage, He explains that all of the various religions, save a few which are the outcome of human perversity, “are ordained of God, and are reflections of His Will and Purpose.” That Purpose, simply put, is righteous living, or more precisely, to reflect the Attributes revealed in God’s Names (*the 99 Names of God in Islam*). These Messengers help us to do this.
In the latter station, there arise the different Ways, Teachings, Methods, and Personalities between the Manifestations. These are the products of what the various times, places, and the conditions had required.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
That's one issue I have with the Baha'i religion as being true, but it's far from the only particular.
Do you mind explaining what you said about the two stations in more detail?
This is one of Baha'u'llah's most enlightening explanations and it Shows us how all the Messengers of God are connected, but at the same time appear to differ. It is an important key to understanding the explanations given by Baha'u'llah.
The Tablet explaining this in full is at this link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56 - It starts with this thought;
"The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness....."
It then carries on to explain the Twofold Station with the first Station of pure abstraction and essential unity ; "...These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.”
This station is that of the Messenger of God.
After giving more details on this station, Baha'u'llah then explains the second station which pertains to this world and their human existence;
"...The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.....”
Baha'u'llah then tells us why we see a difference in the Messengers from God;
"....It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same...."
Then Baha'u'llah gives a quick summary of those two stations
"..It hath ever been evident that all these divergencies of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being.
Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”..."
The Tablet concludes with the weight of importance placed upon this explanation;
"...Therefore these sayings which We have quoted in support of Our argument must be attentively considered, that the divergent utterances of the Manifestations of the Unseen and Day Springs of Holiness may cease to agitate the soul and perplex the mind."
I do recommend that one considers to read this Tablet, the link again; Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56
Regards Tony
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Would you be willing to share any others?
While I myself am atrocious regarding the ability to form detailed explanations of things, I do believe that Tony's explanation above expresses what I had desired to communicate.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
Besides, my view these figures were not the same. A deeper dimension of that seeming problem is where I'll start.
The religions of the world do not appear like they were founded on even remotely similar teachings when it comes to certain key points. Even with the monotheistic religions- Christianity for example shares very little in common with Judaism.
Christians see sin in a different way. They see God in a different way. For Christians, sin has a cosmic dimension not present in Judaism. It is treated like a corrupting cosmic force in it's own right, with an actual reality. God is not seen as being capable of evil in the Christian perspective. Jews think it is too much a human insistence to say God couldn't do evil. Then there's the mystic dimension of Christian theology, which not only makes Christ the reflection of God in human form, but makes him the ideal of the spiritual life. Taken together, this makes Christianity fundamentally irreconcilable with both Judaism and Islam.
This isn't even going into the lack of compatibility between monotheism and the Dharmic religions. Have you ever observed a Christian and a Buddhist, or a Muslim and a Hindu try to debate one another using their worldview's material? It doesn't go over too well.
The Dharmic religions are grounded in the spiritual problems and questions that India sees as important, which makes them fundamentally different from monotheism typically.
Oh sure, one can point to common morals they share, but that happens to be more a matter of humans only having so many possibilities with a given scenario.
Their teachings and terms are so incompatible, a Christian and a Buddhist can hardly get anywhere in discussing anything beyond surface details.
Baha'is not only try to put this incompatibility of actually different frameworks aside, but they devalue two great traditions in the process. They make both traditions seemingly not matter for their differences, when the worldviews see their differences as actually significant.
In the Christian worldview typically, you are very much in danger of being condemned by God without Christ's atonement of your sins. Likewise, in Buddhism- the problem of suffering, the path, the mantras and chants- all of these things are not minor details. Christianity and Buddhism do not agree about salvation, which Buddhists actually term liberation- something quite different if you've looked at the two.
I just feel like Baha'is aren't very serious when it comes to these facts. They seem to think this can just be brushed aside as minor details.
Now why do you suppose Buddhists don't feel these are minor details? Simply because our religion has a different end game than Christianity. Certainly, you'd find very few Christians that wouldn't equally seriously agree about their worldview's exclusive claims.
That is still my main contention with Baha'is. They want me to treat Buddhism like it's generic. Like it's in the same basket as other religions. Like it's claims do not actually matter for their differences.
I am sorry. That is something I cannot do, and no serious devotee of any religion would do. The Buddha and his successors through lineage have been very serious about the truths they claim. The differences in Buddhism matter. There are dire consequences for misrepresenting the Buddha's teaching.
I am willing to kindly agree with people of other religions that we share similarities- where we actually do.
Baha'is, when it comes down to it- think differences in religion are small details, when they aren't.
First of all these are very good points of discussion, they are the issues that need to be discussed. The aim here is not conversion, the aim here is to show how each in our Faith can have an appreciation of another Faith. You have noted how dogma based conversations soon make division.
This is what Baha'u'llah is telling us is the Unchangeable aspect of Faith. Each Messenger is the giver of Virtues, each renews our desire to live the virtues to which we were created for. The potential of all virtues lay dormant within every human on this planet. This is where we find our common ground. The desire to be and do good in service to all humanity.
The Messengers are the first to live this life as they teach us. The first to give all of them selves to show humanity the example.
This is the Changeable aspect of Faith, this is where all the conflict arises from. We hold to the outer form of our Faith. This is where man has always added His Flavor to what the Messenger has taught us. Time makes this flavor seem as just as important, whereas all it does is become a barrier to loving all Faiths.
From a Baha'i point of view we know this is a very serious aspect. It is the aspect that always prevents a person seeing the same Love of Virtues in all other Faiths. It is the Aspect that must be compromised for us to find our Unity in our Diversity. Many people are unwilling to let go of any idea, or rethink any idea, that prevents our ability to embrace all other Faiths.
A Baha'i has no aim but to show you that we too in heart are Buddhists, we do not want to take from you the teachings of the Buddha, we would offer that we share all that is virtue within those teachings. In turn the aim is to show a Buddhist that the virtuous teachings can be found in all other Faiths.
It is not something you are being asked to do. All that is being shown is there is a way to look at it so we embrace our Diversity and can have a unity in Virtues. All people of all Faiths think as you do, they hold exclusively to their belief and state the consequences of not following the belief as set by mans understanding.
Every world Faith has Prophecy of a great day when Unity and Peace will be found. For that to happen it is our mindset that must change. There will be no One Faith that has the monopoly of redemption, a moment when they say we told you so!
It will take Faith, that they all share a common foundation, that will allow for a redemptive mindset. I can not be a Bahai without excepting all Messengers of all World Faiths and the Word that comes from those Messengers. I am a Buddhist in heart, I see the virtues of Buddha that He lived and taught.
Regards Tony
This is what Baha'u'llah is telling us is the Unchangeable aspect of Faith. Each Messenger is the giver of Virtues, each renews our desire to live the virtues to which we were created for. The potential of all virtues lay dormant within every human on this planet. This is where we find our common ground. The desire to be and do good in service to all humanity.
The Messengers are the first to live this life as they teach us. The first to give all of them selves to show humanity the example.
This is the Changeable aspect of Faith, this is where all the conflict arises from. We hold to the outer form of our Faith. This is where man has always added His Flavor to what the Messenger has taught us. Time makes this flavor seem as just as important, whereas all it does is become a barrier to loving all Faiths.
From a Baha'i point of view we know this is a very serious aspect. It is the aspect that always prevents a person seeing the same Love of Virtues in all other Faiths. It is the Aspect that must be compromised for us to find our Unity in our Diversity. Many people are unwilling to let go of any idea, or rethink any idea, that prevents our ability to embrace all other Faiths.
A Baha'i has no aim but to show you that we too in heart are Buddhists, we do not want to take from you the teachings of the Buddha, we would offer that we share all that is virtue within those teachings. In turn the aim is to show a Buddhist that the virtuous teachings can be found in all other Faiths.
It is not something you are being asked to do. All that is being shown is there is a way to look at it so we embrace our Diversity and can have a unity in Virtues. All people of all Faiths think as you do, they hold exclusively to their belief and state the consequences of not following the belief as set by mans understanding.
Every world Faith has Prophecy of a great day when Unity and Peace will be found. For that to happen it is our mindset that must change. There will be no One Faith that has the monopoly of redemption, a moment when they say we told you so!
It will take Faith, that they all share a common foundation, that will allow for a redemptive mindset. I can not be a Bahai without excepting all Messengers of all World Faiths and the Word that comes from those Messengers. I am a Buddhist in heart, I see the virtues of Buddha that He lived and taught.
Regards Tony
Srivijaya
Active Member
Isn't that some kind of allegory for finding the divine within us (charioteer) and overcoming all those habitual desires and tendencies we have relied on for so long and have helped make us who we are - like the family, tutors, friends etc. assembled on the opposing side?
I've always understood it that way.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
As have I. It is possible though that Krishna has his origins in an older understanding of him as a demigod. I acknowledge that possibility.
I think the Hindu perspective of Krishna as the Supreme Lord though isn't likely to invite much speculation about the aforementioned.
In Greco-Buddhism, Krishna appears to have been held as synonymous with Hercules, and by all Hellenes in general. That suggests Krishna's older associations could have been more down to earth.
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Truthfully, I can find no disagreement with you, @Buddha Dharma, on your assessment of the ways in which we Bahá’ís – in our passionate desire for the reconciliation of the followers of the world’s manifold religions – sometimes have tended to ignore entirely or downplay the various beliefs, practices, traditions which are undoubtedly important parts of these different religions. My understanding of the matter is that in order for that aforementioned desire to become realized, we (Bahá’ís) should recall to mind the existence of that station of distinction and its implications regarding interreligious dialogue, namely that the different religions do indeed possess varying Basic Teachings, Practices, Traditions. Although, I do not recall that we, or the Central Figures of our Faith, have ever denied this at all. On this station, however, I do agree that we must focus for the purpose of attaining that Destiny of Great Peace.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
Oh the unity is a wonderful aspect. As a philosopher that has investigated differing frameworks though, including world religions- I appreciate some of the very real differences and that they are not seen as minor details.
I see they are as big as we make them and only ever that big.
I did ask a Hindu at one time to explore the concept of Reincarnation from another frame of reference. That the teaching now followed by the Hindu, could have had many years of men adding their concept, to what this teaching may have originally been.
In the end they considered nothing could be offered. Thus this is not a block for a Baha'i. The Hindu has a concept of reincarnation which does not agree with the Baha'i Writings, we can see the teaching in a different light and at the same time appreciate others do not want to. Thus the perceived difference in the teaching of reincarnation is not a stumbling block to a Unity in our Diversity to a Baha'i. The question then is, would a Hindu not want a unity with other Faiths because of their teachings?
Do not the core virtues cement our hearts in a lasting Love for each other, a Love that builds an acceptance and appreciation of cultural differences.
Regards Tony
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
I reconcile it by understanding that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a tribal deity and that not every upright walking biped that can read and write is a part of that tribe. This God is only a God of those who are descendants of that God. And, at some point, God renews a covenant with various patriarchs to function at different levels and stations of operation. The Creation account in the Torah isn't about the creation of the physical cosmos, it is the organization of all of the eternal souls in this tribe into an entire spiritual cosmos. Genesis 2:4 says all of what was just referred to in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:1-3 pertains to generations of people.
Therefore, all of the souls within this soul-group are fore-ordained to come into the "creation" under a certain kind of "flesh" and at a certain level of spiritual glory. For example, early Christianity is manifesting the flesh of "fishes" and other religious groups manifest other parts of the spiritual ecology of the Father. There are many mansions in the Father's House. Those who come forth and are born as an early Christian, or as an early Muslim, or as a Mormon, etc. are all operating in the measure of creation they had ascribed to them when the foundations of this Creation were laid.
Now, as the new Adam lays the new foundation, all of the geneaology of the past will be reviewed and all of the souls will be re-organized into a new "creation" that is befitting to their performance in the previous "creation". Those who are weak in certain areas will get shuffled into the various different societal circumstances appropriate for their development.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
@Tony Bristow-Stagg not to speak for Hindus, but speaking as a Buddhist- I don't think it is the Baha'i cause of unity sometimes opposed by people of these other religions. I think it's the Baha'i insistence that we other religions must line up to what they say it ought to be. Baha'is add a dogmatic dimension to this unity that we might not accept, but I still think efforts should be undertaken.
As a basic ideal- Buddhists are likely to agree with the effort toward world unity. I've mentioned in other threads that Buddhists have made efforts toward globalism before, but I don't like the strongly nationalistic flair some of these movements carried. IE: Japanese Imperialism
Nationalism is not a virtue in Buddhism, and like all faiths- there are Buddhists that choose to overlook certain admonitions in the teachings. Like that nationalism is not a virtue.
As Buddhists, we are not to let nation blind us to the reality of suffering- including the ways the idea of nation can add to suffering. The Holocaust probably being the most strong example one can offer.
As a basic ideal- Buddhists are likely to agree with the effort toward world unity. I've mentioned in other threads that Buddhists have made efforts toward globalism before, but I don't like the strongly nationalistic flair some of these movements carried. IE: Japanese Imperialism
Nationalism is not a virtue in Buddhism, and like all faiths- there are Buddhists that choose to overlook certain admonitions in the teachings. Like that nationalism is not a virtue.
As Buddhists, we are not to let nation blind us to the reality of suffering- including the ways the idea of nation can add to suffering. The Holocaust probably being the most strong example one can offer.
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That is great, Nationalism is indeed a big barrier to our Unity.
The issue may be we are far to passionate to find the Unity and approach it at a rate people are not prepared for. I also see that a Person that has had a Faith for many years, finds it hard to consider how a person with little knowledge of the Faith they hold, could also have a Love for the Prophet of that Faith, that is unshakable.
I offer this passage about Nations;
"Today the human world is in need of a great power by which these glorious principles and purposes may be executed. The cause of peace is a very great cause; it is the cause of God, and all the forces of the world are opposed to it. Governments for instance, consider militarism as the step to human progress, that division among men and nations is the cause of patriotism and honor, that if one nation attack and conquer another, gaining wealth, territory and glory thereby, this warfare and conquest, this bloodshed and cruelty are the cause of that victorious nation's advancement and prosperity. This is an utter mistake. Compare the nations of the world to the members of a family. A family is a nation in miniature. Simply enlarge the circle of the household and you have the nation. Enlarge the circle of nations and you have all humanity. The conditions surrounding the family surround the nation. The happenings in the family are the happenings in the life of the nation. Would it add to the progress and advancement of a family if dissensions should arise among its members, fighting, pillaging each other, jealous and revengeful of injury, seeking selfish advantage? Nay, this would be the cause of the effacement of progress and advancement. So it is in the great family of nations, for nations are but an aggregate of families. Therefore as strife and dissension destroy a family and prevent its progress, so nations are destroyed and advancement hindered.
All the heavenly books, divine prophets, sages and philosophers agree that warfare is destructive to human development, and peace constructive. They agree that war and strife strike at the foundations of humanity. Therefore a power is needed to prevent war and to proclaim and establish the oneness of humanity." Abdu'l-Baha : Foundations of World Unity
Regards Tony
ajay0
Well-Known Member
War is not always a bad thing.
If earth is hypothetically subjected to an alien invasion trying to colonize earth and its resources and harvest human beings for food,experimentation and other purposes, it does not mean that we have to show the right cheek to them passively.
Obviously one's duty then is to fight back.Spirituality here is involved in doing one's duties as a soldier with mental equanimity and not with an agitated mindset.
An insightful article by Swami Veda Bharati in this regard...
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Srivijaya
Active Member
A necessary evil at best, but still an evil.
Now you're talking! As long as I get a cool Star Wars blaster to take them out with.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
The allied offensive to take out the nazis would also be considered as a necessary evil then.
Taking out weeds in an agricultural field would also be considered a necessary evil. Eliminating harmful living bacteria with antibiotics would also be a necessary evil then.
Srivijaya
Active Member
Absolutely. The vast majority of victims of WW2 were not nazis but the peaceful civilians of many nations who did nothing to deserve it, as it always is in wars.
I'm certain that this hasn't got much to do with the Baha'i Religion though. The ones I've met are quite a peaceful bunch.