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Another irrefutable proof that God created all things using mathematical induction. And a proof that The Bible is the word of God.

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
It can be very hard to debate with deniers of science because they often do not know how to debate themselves. I was assuming that it was just sexual reproduction that he didn't understand, but now it appears that it was just the egg itself. Am I getting that right? I skipped over several pages of denial.
It is an example of those uneducated in biology taking an old metaphor and trying to turn it against a scientific theory.

Yeah, the denial is that eggs could have evolved. A very distant second by another is the denial that scientist know anything about the evolution of eggs at all.

If you want chicken eggs you need chickens, hens precisely. But that fact that is not in contention by anyone is used as the sole evidence to deny that eggs evolved or came first. Or in the practical (or is it impractical) sense of the thread, before chickens.

Personally, I'm satisfied. The evidence I have seen convinces me that there would be no further point or value in carrying this discussion further. It's in the pigeon chess phase and, as we have seen many times, not likely to go beyond that.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because you don't believe and accept the Bible. That was why I was trying not to use it.
I agree.
As I was researching about eggs, I see scientists refer to the idea that fish came before mammals. And even though it is said by scientists that humans eventually evolved from fish, mammals like humans do not lay eggs.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Another interesting point about eggs --
It doesn't matter what you present. Facts won't really matter.. I presented a major problem for them regarding the egg - I couldn't get a reasonable answer from any of them. So they had to just ignore the question rather than provide an answer to it. As a matter of fact, I asked multiple times - they avoided answering it.

My question for them was a simple one. Evolution says the egg came first. I asked how you can get that first egg without something to lay the egg. I couldn't get them to answer. (Maybe someone has since and I didn't see it, but I don't think so.)

Even if they change their minds to now say that the egg wasn't first, they still have that same type problem in reverse.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The ToE claims no such thing. If you can't get science right then don't misrepresent it in a forum with well educated members. Does being a "true believer" include not being honest and truthful? That's what is observed.
So now you are going to claim they aren't saying the egg was first? hmmm - maybe you should look back at some of the links.

Well I guess based on the link "Did the reptile or the egg come first? Scientists have changed their minds" - maybe they have flip flopped.
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I defer to experts in biology unlike you. You hold to absurd beliefs.
I find it interesting how anything by science that can be misconstrued in favor of positions in denial is correct, but anything that actually shows certain interpretations to be flawed is wrong. It is pick and choose based on ignorance of science. It's tragic to me.

Even if this new study turns out to shift our understanding of egg evolution, eggs still existed before chickens.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I find it interesting how anything by science that can be misconstrued in favor of positions in denial is correct, but anything that actually shows certain interpretations to be flawed is wrong. It is pick and choose based on ignorance of science. It's tragic to me.

Even if this new study turns out to shift our understanding of egg evolution, eggs still existed before chickens.
Right - A dinosaur laid an egg and out popped a chicken.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not even evolution states this preposterous notion lmao.
Even I understood that as a joke. :) Meantime, scientists posit that fish eventually evolved to become humans.
Here's what they say, in part: "The methods of reproduction in fishes are varied, but most fishes lay a large number of small eggs, fertilized and scattered outside of the body. The eggs of pelagic fishes usually remain suspended in the open water. Many shore and freshwater fishes lay eggs on the bottom or among plants. Some have adhesive eggs." Fish - Reproduction, Spawning, Fertilization
Humans do not lay eggs outside their bodies.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It doesn't matter what you present. Facts won't really matter.. I presented a major problem for them regarding the egg - I couldn't get a reasonable answer from any of them. So they had to just ignore the question rather than provide an answer to it. As a matter of fact, I asked multiple times - they avoided answering it.

My question for them was a simple one. Evolution says the egg came first. I asked how you can get that first egg without something to lay the egg. I couldn't get them to answer. (Maybe someone has since and I didn't see it, but I don't think so.)

Even if they change their minds to now say that the egg wasn't first, they still have that same type problem in reverse.
No. evolution says that the "egg" like so many other biological developments was an emergent process. Neither was "first".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Even I understood that as a joke. :) Meantime, scientists posit that fish eventually evolved to become humans.
Here's what they say, in part: "The methods of reproduction in fishes are varied, but most fishes lay a large number of small eggs, fertilized and scattered outside of the body. The eggs of pelagic fishes usually remain suspended in the open water. Many shore and freshwater fishes lay eggs on the bottom or among plants. Some have adhesive eggs." Fish - Reproduction, Spawning, Fertilization
Humans do not lay eggs outside their bodies.
It is the sort of reasoning that he has demonstrated. Most creationists think that evolution involves a "change of kinds".
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is the sort of reasoning that he has demonstrated. Most creationists think that evolution involves a "change of kinds".
In the meantime, kind or no kind, some, if not many scientists say that fish evolved in the long run to be humans. Humans do not lay eggs. What I have found out and I appreciate learning it, some snakes emit live young while most emit eggs. Interesting.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the meantime, kind or no kind, some, if not many scientists say that fish evolved in the long run to be humans. Humans do not lay eggs. What I have found out and I appreciate learning it, some snakes emit live young while most emit eggs. Interesting.
And female humans have "ova" about once a month one is released. But since we grow inside a human body a hard eggshell is not needed.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter what you present. Facts won't really matter.. I presented a major problem for them regarding the egg - I couldn't get a reasonable answer from any of them. So they had to just ignore the question rather than provide an answer to it. As a matter of fact, I asked multiple times - they avoided answering it.

My question for them was a simple one. Evolution says the egg came first. I asked how you can get that first egg without something to lay the egg. I couldn't get them to answer. (Maybe someone has since and I didn't see it, but I don't think so.)

Even if they change their minds to now say that the egg wasn't first, they still have that same type problem in reverse.
What does your church's research department say about this matter? Have their careful labors produced a rebuttal to the published claims you mention which will be published in a reputable peer-reviewed magazine of science in the near future?

Or is it all a matter of faith ─ which as you know from the tens of thousands or more of faiths around the world, can be anything you please?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
When did I ever say anything about there not being data on apple seeds?
When you said:

"Your answers are unsound. Just to say that the apple tree developed in the wild first , doesn't prove evolution in any way whatsoever."


So what you actually said was a lie that evolution never says. I didn't say trees just developed in the wild or such a thing proves evolution.

So this new answer makes so little sense I cannot comment further. You are just moving the goalpost and not engaging with any of my questions.




What is unsound is how you take a theory and then present it as a fact when it isn't. It is just a belief.
AGAIN, a strawman, made up by creationists and you are so ingrained you cannot have a conversation with a real person, you seem to only be able to bring in creationist propaganda that I never said?
Hint: creationists argue against strawmen, false made up arguments that no scientist makes.


When you take a theory and end up finding thousands of facts it is more than a belief.

Here is evolution of seed size


here is evolutionary history of plants:



a basic rundown of evidence found. Please describe which evidence you disagree with and why, with sources.

If you are just going to use denial, as if none of this science exists, you don't care about what is true and you can go be delusional somewhere else. So far you have not shown that you even recognize the incredible amount of evidence that exists, and if you do you haven't looked at it to even try to debunk it.

You seem to just ignore evidence and claim there is none and it's therefore all a belief.

It's exactly what flat earthers do. We went to space and have photos......"yeah but that is all fake and a conspiracy"
You could send up a rocket ship and they could watch from a telescope to see the rocket go into space. When it got back and showed the photos they would say, "no those are cgi pics made to fool me".
Them, and you, just do not care about what is true. Your only goal is to protect your beliefs in some mythology.






If you want to say some things have gradually changed after the creation, then would could agree. If you think man developed from a monkey. Well that's ridiculous.
Then explain why we have this evidence.

We have the fossil record. And Humans are great apes morphologically, behaviorally and genetically we are great apes.

You are doing one of two things.

Either denying the massive evidence that hominids did evolve from a tree creature similar to a monkey, which you need to explain away all that evidence.


Or you accept the evidence and say humans are not part of this, we were put here by a magic deity. But the deity made it look like we evolved from the earlier hominid. We even have DNA of an extinct hominid in some humans blood? And again, we match morphologically, behaviorally and genetically.
I disagree. The actual real world proves there was a creator.
The actual real world has huge evidence for evolution. Again, debunk it.

The natural forces are not a conscious being.


Even if there was a world that looked like it came from a creator, Yahweh is a myth that came from people, all the evidence points to this.
So the creator would be unknown.









And that explains how we got the egg. It would come from one of the animals created that lays eggs.
There is an evolutionary explanation and evidence for the egg. Again, the way you test an idea is to try to debunk it. Read the actual science and find out if you can show flaws. If your theory is sound it will stand up to testing. Denial is not that.

"Most people associate viviparity with mammals. But viviparity only evolved once in ancestral mammals, whereas it has evolved about 100 times in lizards and snakes. Viviparity is especially common in lizards and snakes that live at higher elevations. At high elevations, environmental temperatures are usually cooler, so eggs laid at high elevations develop very slowly. If the embryos can be retained inside the mother, then the female can raise the incubation temperature through thermoregulation (sitting in direct sunlight, for example). So viviparity has evolved repeatedly in many different groups of reptiles, often as an adaptation to life in cooler environments such as high elevations. Changes in the opposite direction (from viviparity back to oviparity, or egg-birth) are thought to be much rarer, in part because the gland that makes the egg-shell has been lost in viviparous species. However, the latter point has long been debated, and “re-evolution” of oviparity has been suggested in some groups of lizards and snakes.

published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/02/06/1816086116) examined the genetic changes that accompany a transition from oviparity to viviparity in closely related species of toad-headed lizards (Phrynocephalus), which live at various elevations around the Tibetan Plateau of central Asia. The authors found that many of the same genes are involved in the production of shelled eggs and viviparous embryos, but that they differ in the order and the magnitude that these genes are turned on and off. Thus, the transition between oviparity and viviparity appears to be largely a matter of changes in gene expression, rather than the evolution of new structural genes. In other words, genetic changes in gene regulation can result in major morphological and physiological adaptations in reproductive mode over relatively short periods of evolutionary time. This helps explain how there have been so many changes between oviparity and viviparity, and also suggest that changes in the reverse direction may not be as difficult to achieve as were once thought."
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I have brought up a great argument against Evolution as the means of creation.
"Great"? Because a myth says Inanna created all humans from clay and all animals, or whatever myth you pick, a folk tale is not "great" evidence.

A story in Genesis that gets everything wrong, "kind", cosmic waters above earth, the earth is just the firmament, 7 heavens, and all sorts of nonsense, which also follows Mesopotamian stories closely and have been shown to be interdependent by scholars, isn't evidence for anything except a mythology existed as one of thousands of others. In Mesopotamian they all sounded very similar, including the deities, including Yahweh.

In the real world there are unbelievable amounts of evidence for evolution. Just saying the word "creationism" is not an argument against evolution. You have to explain all the evidence and show it supports creationism. If it involves a creator you need to demonstrate the creator, not a folk tale with a claim who no other nation saw because they saw their own fictional folk tale deity (in their mind).







Which you are unable to answer to my satisfaction.
I'm not trying to answer to someone who doesn't look at evidence, that is a delusional person. I'm putting some facts out there best I can. For people who may care.
People who want to say it's all just Vishnu or whatever and not engage with the real world and test their theory I don't want to waste my time.
No different than a flat earther. You will never convince them NASA isn't a conspiracy, gravity is fake and all scientists are in on it and so on.





I still don't see a reasonable answer as to how you can come up with the first egg, when it takes something to lay that egg.
First, why don't you research evolution? Why would you want information from the internet when you can learn from a biologist. I linked to one on youtube who deals with creationist claims. YOu would want to test your theory to make sure you can debunk all his arguments.
The internet will just snow you, you have no idea if the information is correct. Same with religious organizations, they can sell you apologetics as amateurs in history and people buy their lies all the time.

I already explained the basics to you , you did not have any rebuttal or explanation as to why it's not possible or probable. Simple life used cells as protection? How hard is that?

When did the first eggs evolve?​

The earliest living creatures made babies by dividing themselves in half, so that one cell became two cells. But about 1.4 billion years ago, some creatures with more than one cell began to develop specialized cells. These specialized cells could combine with the cells from another creature. Together, they could make a new creature. These were the first eggs.

As time went on, these creatures evolved into plants and animals, but both the plants and the animals continued to use specialized cells as eggs.

When did eggs get hard shells?​

The next step in egg evolution came when reptiles began to lay eggs with hard shells made of calcium carbonate, a molecule combining carbon and calcium. Inside these shells, a baby reptile could grow safely until it was big enough to be born. That way, the reptiles didn’t have to lay their eggs in the water. The eggshell holds a miniature ocean for the tiny embryo to grow in. Many animals, like snakes and birds, still lay hard eggs today.
About 200 million years ago, however, some reptiles evolved into mammals that kept their eggs inside them until the babies were big enough to be born. The earliest animals that kept their eggs inside them were the ancestors of the opossum. Today, all mammals (except the platypus and the echidna!) keep their eggs inside them until the baby is born – horses, dogs, cows, donkeys, sheep, pigs, chimpanzees, and people.










Darwin was right about one thing for sure - When he said It was totally absurd.
He also said it was possible in small steps. So you are cherry-picking Darwin. He was the first, the first physicist who came up with black holes, neutron stars, the big bang, expanding universe, expanding even faster now universe, all said it was crazy, absurd and possibly not true.

But evidence over generations is what convinces science.



Just believe whatever you want.
No thank you. I have no desire to believe whatever I want. I might believe in some nonsense deity or afterlife that is clearly an import from Greek religion.
I will believe what evidence warrants belief in. Rational, logical, empirical knowledge will help see through all the snow jobs people have put out there for people to buy into and believe. I need evidence.




I can't help you.
I don't need your help. You have not demonstrated to be someone I would seek for help because you don't vale truth at all.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter what you present. Facts won't really matter.. I presented a major problem for them regarding the egg - I couldn't get a reasonable answer from any of them. So they had to just ignore the question rather than provide an answer to it. As a matter of fact, I asked multiple times - they avoided answering it.

My question for them was a simple one. Evolution says the egg came first. I asked how you can get that first egg without something to lay the egg. I couldn't get them to answer. (Maybe someone has since and I didn't see it, but I don't think so.)

Even if they change their minds to now say that the egg wasn't first, they still have that same type problem in reverse.
Shows you really don't look at evidence.

" observed that many lizards and snakes exhibit flexible reproductive strategies, shifting between oviparity and viviparity. "

"“But the amniotic egg was the key. It was said to be a ‘private pond’ in which the developing reptile was protected from drying out in the warm climates and enabled the Amniota to move away from the waterside and dominate terrestrial ecosystems,”"

It says they can shift. Amniotic egg is just fluid-filled membranes. Like I said an egg is just an extention of the reproductive process. As reproduction became more advanced a new organism gestated inside a parent and involved extra cells and eventually membranes. At some point they began to harden.

oviparity and viviparity are internal and external. Evolution is not a straight line.

The creationists have snowed you into thinking an egg just starts out in nature like a hard shell. They are not looking for what is true, they are doing apologetics for a religion.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And female humans have "ova" about once a month one is released. But since we grow inside a human body a hard eggshell is not needed.
My thoughts about that: since scientists proclaim that fish eventually morphed into humans and mammals, it obviously took a certain type to engender the procreation of human embryo inside the body. To sum it up: do I believe that life was enabled, given as we understand life to be, from God? Yes. The morphology from fish to humans is virtually inexplicable as if to know which fishes were going where. And besides, fishes are still swimming without developing legs or fins to carry them by evolution now to land. Why do you think that is? Some might answer because there's no "need" for that now, as if there is enough water supply, etc. But I don't think that's true about the water supply and/or contamination. OK, anyway, about the change (evolution) from fish to humans -- and eggs inside or outside the body -- aside from the idea that I don't think it happened, I'm also going to say it appears to be virtually impossible and illogical and inexplicable in the long and short run. So does that mean I know how God made fishes and humans? I could ask you to guess, but I won't. It means that I do not believe that evolution is the way fish, animals and humans came about. Is that all? Basically, yes. Later for another time.
 
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