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Another irrefutable proof that God created all things using mathematical induction. And a proof that The Bible is the word of God.

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
It's not "my point of view", it's what the evidence demonstrates it true. Evolution has so much evidence for it that most Christians even consider it true and that God used evolution to create different species. It's true in many ways, morphologically, behaviorally and genetically, there is evidence that it's happening now and at all other times in the development of life.

It doesn't matter what I want to be true, what religion it conflicts with, it's true. Christians in the middle ages said the same things about the earth being at the center of the universe and many other things they had to let go of. Evolution is just another scientific fact that the church will slowly let go of. The Catholic church already has.



You don't have a valid point of view. Show me evidence that is reasonable that cancels out the massive lines of pro-evolution evidence.
The questions and assumptions you are making show you literally do not know what evolution even is.
Why didn't man get wings? You don't understand the thing you think is wrong which shows you are just parroting opinions of creationists to keep a mythic story alive.
Evolution is the least problem in that regard.

Feel free to present a reasonable argument, all you did is ask very strange questions with weird assumptions.






Actually that is wrong. Large flying reptiles were much heavier than man. But if you say he would never be able to fly, why did you pose the question? None of this makes sense?







Where do I say that because I make a claim it's true? How did your beliefs get so twisted in fallacies and contradictions?

It's true because of the EVIDENCE? Did you not hear me say it evolved many times in separate lines? Did you even think to say, "what do you mean? Tell me about that?", no, you did not. You are not even going to mention it because what is actually true, what evidence demonstrates, is of zero importance to you. Reality is just an annoyance for you to ignore and continue beliefs that have no basis in reality or make any sense.

And evidence exists to demonstrate it's the best model to match what happened in reality.

Forrect Valkai, evolutionary biologist
10:51
"Eyes are a super common sticking point for creationists, they argure they are too complex or didn't have enough time to evolve, but all of that is demonstrably untrue. My favorite demonstration of that is this study from 1994 where 2 researchers developed a model of eye evolution to see theoretically, how long it would take an eye to evolve, over the course of 1800 tiny improvements from a set of light sensitive cells all the way up to a complex image forming eye. Even with the consistently pessimistic approach, the time required becomes amazingly short, only a few hundred thousand years. 360,000 generations. In the 550 million years eyes appeared in the fossil record, complex eyes could have evolved 1500 times."
12:09
examples of convergent evolution, different lines evolving the same adaptations, structures or behavior without a common ancestor.


The eye started as a patch of skin that was photosensitive and evolved from there. At least 5 times from completely different lines.
Ears are the same, a patch of skin that detects soundwaves.

The fossil record does demonstrate the development of these organs so I have no idea what you are on about "proof"?



What happened to the eye and ears?




It was.

Of course it was.


You really cannot research this in favor of beliefs equally as foolish as "germs are not real!?"

Taste buds are important because taste allows animals to try to get more of a particularly calorie-dense or nutritious food and to avoid compounds that might be harmful or toxic. Without receptors for a particular flavor, animals cannot be motivated to eat or avoid substances with that flavor.
Early man had a dopamine release for calorie dense, sugar/fat (we still have it) foods. This would force overeating and give bodyfat stores during days when hunting was bad or drought.
You cannot overeat chicken, leaves and water. But high sugar/fat you can eat more than you need, as we all know. All early humans faced long periods of not having food and needed a supply of fat to live on.

Never mind the huge amounts of poison. Man had to eat everything in the jungle to see if it was edible for survival, taste buds are essential for survival and for keeping organisms alive. They regulate dopamine, serotonin and encourage eating. Also give most poisonous compounds in some plants a bad taste.
Again, it's a simple patch of skin that became more advanced.

The amount of information out there on evolutionary reasons and examples of the progression of something like a tase bud is so high, it's very clear you do not care about truth but just want to hold onto certain beliefs that make you happy. You must know this, I don't see why you would put such basic arguments to people knowing there are answers?









You can believe Inanna created us all or whatever you like, I don't care. I am interested in what is actually true. Not everyone cares about truth and putting their beliefs through a rational, skeptical, honest methodology to see if they are real.

If there was reason to find evolution false I would gladly discard it, as would every scientist. Any scientist who could disprove evolution would be as famous as Einstein. Even one who could disprove something really small would have an instant career.




Again, what you believe is not important to me. Unless you can demonstrate it to be a reasonable belief, with evidence.

I have yet to see good evidence of any god. Even the fictional character of Yahweh is a horrible character in the OT.
He murders at whim, for his mistakes, tells his people old stories that were used previously by older nations and the same old laws and wisdom we already knew.



Except for the hominids who ate poison and died, the hominids who overate sugar and fat and had extra fat to live on during long periods of no food, the hominids who could remember the taste of foods that made it ill in different ways, tell when a food was contaminated, when a food made him feel good and many other things taste buds were useful for.
Except for all that.


Who is telling you this junk?
We are just on two different wavelengths. Evolution is just a man made theory. You aren't demonstrating anything with real evidence. Of course taste buds are important. I just believe they were God given, and not evolved. You have a made up story you are telling. It can't be proven.

You can't even explain how we would get a first chicken. It takes an egg, which requires a female to lay it and a male to fertilize it. No matter what precursor to the chicken you say there might be, you are always in the same situation. How did you get that precursor to the chicken without an egg and a male to fertilize it, and how could you get the egg without the female previously existing?

It HAD to come about thru the creation.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, but neither of those prove evolution of tastebuds. Just because it says "Taste evolved to provide gratification from food". How in the world does that prove it was from evolution rather than creation?

As I have said previously there was no pressure for taste to develop. We could survive whether the food tasted good or not.

Surely just because we would have loved for it to taste good, things didn't start evolving to be sweet or sour or whatever.
Oh great, did I offend you when I pointed out that you call your own God a liar? I did post an explanation of how taste evolved and could provide links.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We are just on two different wavelengths. Evolution is just a man made theory. You aren't demonstrating anything with real evidence. Of course taste buds are important. I just believe they were God given, and not evolved. You have a made up story you are telling. It can't be proven.

You can't even explain how we would get a first chicken. It takes an egg, which requires a female to lay it and a male to fertilize it. No matter what precursor to the chicken you say there might be, you are always in the same situation. How did you get that precursor to the chicken without an egg and a male to fertilize it, and how could you get the egg without the female previously existing?
And you believe a man made myth. Theories beat the pants off of myths.

And there was no "first chicken". When you make demands that demonstrate that you do not understand what you are arguing about then you really cannot complain when you do not get the answers you desire. It now sounds as if you are wondering how sexual reproduction evolved.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Sorry, but neither of those prove evolution of tastebuds. Just because it says "Taste evolved to provide gratification from food". How in the world does that prove it was from evolution rather than creation?

As I have said previously there was no pressure for taste to develop. We could survive whether the food tasted good or not.

Surely just because we would have loved for it to taste good, things didn't start evolving to be sweet or sour or whatever.

I wasn't trying to prove evolution of taste buds. I was answering your claim that taste is not important enough to have evolved. Taste is in fact very important.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
How is that ridiculous? It is literally what you proposed.
That your god created things "with age" and thus with all the signs of "age".

The signs of "age" in the world, among many other things, are things like canyons, geological layers, ancient fossils,...
In biology they are things like the nested hierarchical structures in DNA, shared ERV's, etc.

If your god created all these things merely to make them "look old", then yes - he created features looking like the result of events that never happened.
That is planting false evidence.


How is something like the broken GULO gene in humans something that is "required to continue to function"?
This gene is broken in ALL great apes in the exact same way.

Evolution explains this. The gene broke in a common ancestor and was passed on in that broken state to all its descendends, which continued to diversify and evolve into chimps, humans, gorilla's and oerang utangs.

How do you explain it?
By shrugging your shoulders and saying "that's just how god made it".
No reason, no rhyme, no logic. Just.... "because".

And that's just one gene.
There's plenty of such genetic markers that make no sense in seperate creation events and which are FULLY explained (in a 1 in 1 probability) in context of evolution.

If your god created all species seperately, he went out of his way to make all DNA look like it comes from common ancestors.
It's that simple.
I didn't say he did it to merely make them look old. Adam would need to be able to take care of himself. And nature would need to be such that it could maintain the cycle of life. My example was just to show that things may be much younger than you believe. He didn't need your permission. He was the creator. He could put things in any state he wanted to.

Well don't just shrug your shoulders either. Explain how we got the first chicken. You have to have an egg first , and a male to fertilize it. But you can't get the egg without the chicken first. And it doesn't matter what you try to say the precursor to the chicken was. You are in the same situation - needing an egg first - but unable to get the egg because it requires the animal to lay the egg.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Yes I'm comparing apologetics, which have no evidence in reality, in any way, to a field of science with massive evidence in many many ways.


Why do all creationists say evolution is false but have no idea what evolution is, how it works, or anything else about the subject?

Things don't evolve for "convenience"?

The eye isn't as complicated as creationist media likes to make it out. It actually evolved several times completely separately in unrelated species.



Hominids were able to survive, reproduce and find food and shelter. There was no pressure for any Great Apes (including humans) to fly.
Wings come from pre-cursor wing-like limbs that served a purpose. Apes need strong muscular arms, no need to even select mutations that are growing longer, thinner arms and thinner fingers that can lead to wings.

Apes were doing fine, then we added larger brains and we had stronger advantages. Wings don't just start to pop out of animals. There were small tree mammals who were jumping from tree to tree and the mutations that led to thinner bones in their arms and more flesh to catch air while jumping helped those animals survive. So those traits were passed on. Eventually a mutation started growing skin between fingers, a small amount at first and so on. If the mutation is helpful it will stick. If it helps the animal survive in their environment better that it will be more likely to be passed on.

Over thousands of generations a jumping squirrel may evolve a pre-cursor to wings.




Hominids evolved in packs. Being jumped from behind definitely happened but those apes just died.

If there was massive pressure in that way, all apes were being attacked only from behind, they could develop a social skill where they always watch each others back. Or physically mutations that might help would be a stronger skull, more bones on the back, a rear horn, but it wasn't enough of an issue so there was no pressure to evolve different. We survived by being smart.

Evolution isn't magic and it isn't conscious. Mutations happen and they either help or not. You don't just evolve an eye?

Eyes start far before with multi-celled microscopic animals who need to know when another microscopic animal is going to eat it. So one might develop a patch that is sensitive to water movement or photons. If that helps then that animal spreads its genes and over millions of years mutations happen. Most don't help and the creature dies, some may enhance the sensors, develop an area that focuses light and sends it to your brain for it to make a picture in the mind. The eye develops this way over millions of years.

An ape isn't going to just get new eyes in a different spot. They would also be a liability, both sides of the face have openings in the skull, bad idea.






Why? Uh, if Gandof cast a spell to give someone more eyes they would magically evolve. Maybe Potter has a spell to give one more eyes?
Dr Strange could do something as well for magic evolution.


In reality these senses start with organisms with a few cells that bonded together and share living duties, one eats, one digests, one protects the outer surface. A mutation may create an area on one cell that responds to soundwaves simply by having some reaction to alert the creature that something might be coming to eat it.
If it works, new additions will emerge, some useless and some will make it more advanced. Many millions of years later you end up with a hearing device that connects to the nervous system, which also evolved and now you can hear, interpret the sound and where it is.

We see the stages in fossils and understand how they evolved. Hearing and seeing is important to find food, catch food, see and hear enemies and predators, see your friends and family. Insect life is one of the first to have basic nervous systems, eyes, hearing

If you really want to understand evolution you should consider listening to an evolutionary biologist who watches creationist media and comments on it, pointing out errors and false beliefs.

I watched another creationist movie - A Matter of Faith | Reacteria​

If evolution is real. Please explain how we got the first chicken considering the following facts.

Facts:
1. You need an egg and a male to fertilize the egg to get a chicken.
2. You can't get the egg without an existing female.
3. Any precursor to the modern day chicken faces the same constraints.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to prove evolution of taste buds. I was answering your claim that taste is not important enough to have evolved. Taste is in fact very important.
The article didn't prove that either. And I wasn't saying taste wasn't important. I was saying you could survive by eating without the food tasting wonderful - that was the point. So it wasn't a necessity for foods to evolve with different tastes or for tastebuds to be able to enjoy it to have evolved.

What would be the cause for a tree to evolve into an apple tree?
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If evolution is real. Please explain how we got the first chicken considering the following facts.

Facts:
1. You need an egg and a male to fertilize the egg to get a chicken.
2. You can't get the egg without an existing female.
3. Any precursor to the modern day chicken faces the same constraints.
Sexual reproduction evolved a long long long time ago. Long before there were hard body parts so it cannot be traced by the fossil record. It may remain in the realm of the hypothetical.

So why do you think that those that accept reality have to explain how it evolved?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The article didn't prove that either. And I wasn't saying taste wasn't important. I was saying you could survive by eating without the food tasting wonderful - that was the point. So it wasn't a necessity for foods to evolve with different tastes or for tastebuds to be able to enjoy it to have evolved.

What would be the cause for a tree to evolve into an apple tree?
The precursor to the apple would have had a very very small fruit. The modern apple is a product of artificial selection.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
The article didn't prove that either. And I wasn't saying taste wasn't important. I was saying you could survive by eating without the food tasting wonderful - that was the point. So it wasn't a necessity for foods to evolve with different tastes or for tastebuds to be able to enjoy it to have evolved.

It was important, there wouldn't be homo sapiens if it wasn't for taste.

What would be the cause for a tree to evolve into an apple tree?

To continue the species.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
It was important, there wouldn't be homo sapiens if it wasn't for taste.



To continue the species.
Hi John53,

Let me make sure I've got this. So you are telling me that if mankind couldn't taste, mankind wouldn't even exist?

And you are saying the tree evolved into an apple tree just to continue the species. So it was just perchance that it happens to produce fruit that tastes good.

Those are exactly the kind of answers that solidify my disbelief in evolution.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Hi John53,

Let me make sure I've got this. So you are telling me that if mankind couldn't taste, mankind wouldn't even exist?

And you are saying the tree evolved into an apple tree just to continue the species. So it was just perchance that it happens to produce fruit that tastes good.

Those are exactly the kind of answers that solidify my disbelief in evolution.

What kind of answers do you want? You said you don't have time to spend on research and now you don't want brief to the point responses.

Give me something to work with.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
What kind of answers do you want? You said you don't have time to spend on research and now you don't want brief to the point responses.

Give me something to work with.
Maybe I should put it like this. Your answers don't make logical sense to me. For instance it makes no sense, that just because man couldn't taste anything, that it would prevent him from being able to exist.

I'm wanting someone to explain in a logical way in their own words. Like explaining how you would possibly get the first chicken. It takes an egg fertilized by a male chicken. Yet you can't get the egg to begin with without the chicken already existing. And the forerunners of the modern chicken would be bound by the same constraints. You can't have either one (the chicken or the egg) without having the other first. Explain how those basic principles were bypassed by evolution.
 
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John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Maybe I should put it like this. Your answers don't make logical sense to me. For instance it makes no sense, that just because man couldn't taste anything, that it would prevent him from being able to exist.
It's pretty simple, taste (and smell) helps stop us from eating and drinking things that would kill us. Without it our ancestors wouldn't have made it.

I'm wanting someone to explain in a logical way in their own words. Like explaining how you would possibly get the first chicken. It takes an egg fertilized by a male chicken. Yet you can't get the egg to begin with without the chicken already existing. And the forerunners of the modern chicken would be bound by the same constraints. You can't have either one (the chicken or the egg) without having the other first. Explain how those basic principles were bypassed by evolution.

If you're talking domestic chickens, they were artificially bred by humans from red and grey jungle fowl which were already egg layers.

If you want to know how egg laying originally evolved I doubt if anyone could give you a short concise answer in their own words. If it interests you so much google it, there's numerous websites out there that can explain it far better than I could ever do given your requirements.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
It's pretty simple, taste (and smell) helps stop us from eating and drinking things that would kill us. Without it our ancestors wouldn't have made it.



If you're talking domestic chickens, they were artificially bred by humans from red and grey jungle fowl which were already egg layers.

If you want to know how egg laying originally evolved I doubt if anyone could give you a short concise answer in their own words. If it interests you so much google it, there's numerous websites out there that can explain it far better than I could ever do given your requirements.
So you do not know how Egg laying evolved at all, just sure that is did beucase that is how the circular reasoning of evolution works
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You jumped in on another post, evidently not understanding what I was actually saying.

I understood very well what you were saying. I read the whole conversation.
This sounds like just another cop-out.

I said based on what he said - that it would mean man would have always had to exist.

I know. And I explained how you concluding that was not correct. But alas.

Let me explain it more clearly for you. If there has never been a human in existence that didn't have two humans for parents as he said. Then unless God created mankind to begin with, that would means he was putting man in a similar position to what we say about God. Man would have always had to have existed.

I explained 3 times now how this isn't true. You ignore the concept of gradualism.
You assume that under evolution, there had to be a non-human who gave birth to a human.
That's not how it works. I illustrated how that's not how it works by giving the example of evolution of language.
Spanish evolved from Latin.
At no point in history did a latin speaking mother raise a spanish speaking child.
Every spanish speaking child, ever, had a spanish speaking mother.
There is no hard line where you can say "now the child speaks spanish while the mother does not".

Gradualism.

Think about it before you reply.

You should give this advice to yourself.
Answer the challenge concerning language.
Latin evolved into spanish, correct?
Was there a point in history where a non-spanish speaking mother raised a spanish speaking child?
Is it not true that all spanish-speaking children had spanish-speaking parents?

We are here. We have parents. They have parents. They have parents. (on and on) So mankind would have always had to exist for what he said to be true. (UNLESS God created mankind as I believe.)
No.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Here is the difference in why I can believe in God. I can't prove it to you. But he has given me personal proof, so I know he exists. But you won't believe even if I tell you, so it isn't proof to you. But it was proof to me.

So could you be wrong about that "personal proof"?
Surely you agree that such "personal proof" can be wrong, right?
After all, surely you are aware of muslims, hindu's, etc who will also claim to have received "personal proof" from their gods, which are mutually exclusive to yours.
It follows that you think they are deceived / mistaken, since you are not a muslim...

Same goes for claimed alien abductees. They have their "personal proof" as well. They were "abducted" and had experiments performed on them aboard some flying saucer. Do you believe in alien abduction?

How about bigfoot? They have their "personal proof" as well, as they believe to have spotted bigfoot.

So clearly it should follow that you agree that people claiming to have "personal proof" can be mistaken, delusional, deceived,...
In fact.............. MOST of the beliefs out there that are being believed on "personal proof", are beliefs that you would agree with me are false. What does that tell you about the reliability of "personal proof"?

How do you propose to find out if this isn't the case with you?

And there are so many fulfilled prophecies in his word.

That should be demonstrable to others. Conversely, the muslim also will claim "many fullfilled prophecies" in the quran. But you don't believe in the quran, do you?
Then there's the "prophecies" of Baba Vega, Nostradamus, etc. Do you believe in all those also? Why or why not?
When you can articulate why you don't believe in those, you likely will also know why I don't believe in those of the bible.

I believe much in science.

Such as? Because as I explained in the post you are responding to... your objections to evolution theory weren't actually objections specific to evolution. They were objections to the very concept of scientific theory. Every explanation in science is a theory. So if you are consistent and don't hold double standards, those objections would apply to any and all theories. ie, all of science.

But you can't have a chicken without an egg. And you can't have the egg without the chicken.

Eggs evolved before chickens.
Chickens had egg laying ancestors.

(as a matter of fact both a male and a female) That is just ONE simple example that science cannot explain sufficiently for me.

Please. Don't pretend as if you are aware of the scientific explanations concerning the evolution of sex.
You have already demonstrated time and again that you don't even understand the basic concept of gradualism. You can't even begin to understand evolution without that foundation, let alone evolution of specific traits and processes.

Having said that...




What possible logical reason could there be why we have taste buds?

Imagine if you didn't.
You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between rotten or poisonous food and fresh food.

In fact, we have examples of this exact thing in abundance today as a result of COVID. Plenty of infected people temporarily lost their sense of taste and smell. My sister in law had this problem. And it was a HUGE problem. She has 3 kids. When cooking dinner, she was NOT able to tell if the meat was okay or not. She had to ask her eldest son to smell everything she cooked, because she couldn't tell if it was spoiled or not.


It wasn't required during your so called evolution. We could survive with just eating. It wasn't required that food be delicious.

You'ld die from eating poisonous and / or rotten food.

I see no direct linkage to the development of a giraffe or an elephant.

Perhaps this is so because of your willful ignorance / refusal to actually study up.

You want to believe in evolution, so you believe everything they feed you.
I don't "want" to believe anything.
I believe whatever convinces me based on rational evidence.

You are the one that "wants" to believe things.
This is pure projection on your part.

Religion literally is believing the stuff that you're being told.
In science, just believing what you are being told is actually frowned upon. You accept what is in evidence instead, because it is in evidence.
 
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