Another lie by an apostate.

[JoStories]

I am woman.

Ok. One never knows on this forum whether the respondent is a male or female. Sorry about that.

 

[JoStories]

Jo, you can't be serious. If that was a JW doing and saying that, then I will eat my hat. We don't believe in hell either...so go figure.

We would never say something like that and if we did, it should be reported so that action against that individual would be taken. JW's aren't the only ones who preach door to door. Some local Pentecostal groups do it too....more likely to be one of those.

I don't know what to tell you but here in this state, this has happened quite a number of times, as I mentioned and those people clearly identified as being JW. Whether or not they were apostate or some other fringe nutcases I wouldn't know. I just know they were handing out that watchtower publication and telling myself and my mother, who, BTW, is a devout Baptist and she, too, was told she had to be converted, that they were from your Church. And no, I am not kidding you one iota.

 

[JoStories]

I think that mental abuse can lead to something worse than being killed. Suicide.

For you, suicide is worse than being killed? How so? I find this topic fascinating in that so many people are afraid of death. For many,, the idea of suicide is a mortal sin, and for others, it results in a purgatory state, much like the Buddhist Bardo state I suspect. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic, despite it being off topic from the OP if you are of a mind.

 

[JoStories]

I have met two Jehovah's Witness women who were married to "unbelieving" men. They both influenced their husbands (both good men imo) to dedicate themselves to the Jehovah's Witness cause. Even though one of them is a fine person, he was not a good elder imo. He caused me much mental pain and anxiety in his capacity as an elder. JWs believe the elders are appointed by The Holy Spirit. I know that is not true. It is a lie.

I have never been a JW and only ever studied this faith from the extraneous POV so I don't know firsthand how the idea of these elders work. I suspect it is much like the leaders of the Mormon Church or perhaps the upper echelons of the RCC. And your post also demonstrates one of the biggest flaws or perhaps drawbacks is a better term, for religion which is being heavily influenced by others to do as someone else might wish. In my path, I am the only one responsible for what I learn. I can seek guidance of course from monks of the Buddhist path but mostly even they would guide me back to finding my own answers through intense meditation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then there's also this little incident from Mexico where the JWs felt it was okay to vandalise sites of religious interest to non-Christians.

I have a special love for Mesoamerican culture, so this especially enrages me! I hope they are prosecuted!

 

[Deeje]

First of all, your God may hate something but the God I believe in hates no one and openly requires questioning. That leads to enlightenment.

My God is definitely not beyond questioning, in fact he tells us to use our power of reason to prove things to ourselves. (Rom 12:1, 2)

The fact that my God hates wickedness is a good thing. He tells us to hate it too. (Psalm 97:10)
Its just that sometimes humans don't understand wickedness from his perspective.

Taking sides in an issue that you haven't a personal acquaintance with is foolish. No one can judge any situation with one side of a story.
Prov 18:13:
"When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears it, that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation."

Second, apparently you have never lost a child.

I have a son who is terminally ill....you want to rephrase that? (see the scripture above)

How dare you dismiss this woman's pain so callously.

Can I say "how dare you assume that I have."

I had my children taken because a man raped my child and my ex was a total jack hole, blaming me for her rape. The man grabbed her while she was walking home from school with other children and dragged her into a van. She was 8 at the time. How I was supposed to have stopped a pedophile is beyond me. Perhaps you might know that one.

We all have a story to tell Jo....its called life. No one is dismissing anyone's pain, not even yours.....you first have to have all the facts before you can judge any situation....and then it's just your opinion anyway. There is only one judge that counts and we will all stand before him whether we believe in him or not.

What harm does questioning cause anyone?

Who said questioning was forbidden. We are encouraged to question...its how we get answers.

If this is an example of what your faith has to offer, I thank my God I have nothing to do with it.

See scripture above once again.....did you read what I wrote or did you just assume something that I never said?

 

[Deeje]

I have a special love for Mesoamerican culture, so this especially enrages me! I hope they are prosecuted!

And you believe a so called news story that comes out of Mexico? This is NOT something JW's would do maliciously. If it was not their property, then they had no right to touch it.

You guys will believe anything bad you read about us.....don't forget John 15:18-21 and remember that you will be judged as you judge.

Indeed. Psychological harm is just as bad as physical harm, if not worse.

Apparently the Catholic Church has not been kind to you either?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And you believe a so called news story that comes out of Mexico? This is NOT something JW's would do maliciously. If it was not their property, then they had no right to touch it.

You guys will believe anything bad you read about us.....don't forget John 15:18-21 and remember that you will be judged as you judge.

Lol, because a JW would never do that, right? There's no bad apples among you, right? You're just trying to do damage control and it's failing. I don't have any reason to disbelieve the story. It's not out of character for strident religious exclusivists. There's many verses in the Bible where Yahweh commands his followers to destroy "idols". New converts in Acts where said to have to burnt all their "pagan" books, as well.

I'm not a Christian, so that verse doesn't mean anything to me. Even if it did, I don't go around destroying historical sites so there's no hypocrisy there.

Apparently the Catholic Church has not been kind to you either?

I wasn't thinking about the Catholic Church when I posted that. Catholics are certainly guilty of many abuses, however.

 

[savagewind]

For you, suicide is worse than being killed? How so? I find this topic fascinating in that so many people are afraid of death. For many,, the idea of suicide is a mortal sin, and for others, it results in a purgatory state, much like the Buddhist Bardo state I suspect. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic, despite it being off topic from the OP if you are of a mind.

I don't think that suicide is worse than being killed because of what might happen after dying. If a person is killed, then the loved ones of the killed person have every right to be angry with the murderer. But if someone kills himself how are his loved ones to feel?

 

[idav]

Is this the "spirit" direction the watchtower uses for translating their "divine truth"?


*** yb00 pp. 93-94 Britain *** 2000 Yearbook

Geraint Watkin is also a member of the Bethel family. In the early 1980’s, he turned down a university education in favor of pioneer service. He supported himself with part-time work on his father’s farm. He enjoyed the pioneer work and hoped that someday he might become a missionary. So why did he apply for Bethel service? An article in The Watchtower in 1989 deeply influenced him. There he read the life story of Max Larson, a member of the Bethel family in the United States. Brother Larson said: “I firmly believe that Bethel is the best place on earth this side of the coming earthly Paradise.” Geraint noticed that, after requesting an application for Bethel service, Brother Larson had kept the matter before Jehovah in prayer. Geraint promptly followed that example. About ten days later, he received a phone call inviting him to become a member of the Bethel family in Britain. In Bethel service, he uses experience he gained on his father’s farm to care for a farm that supplies food for the Bethel family in London. At one time farming was simply a means for him to support himself in the pioneer work. He views the farming he now does as his “Bethel assignment from Jehovah.”


Awake - No. 3 – 2016 – Breaking the Language Barrier
How do translators typically carry out their work?

Geraint, a translator based in Britain, explains: “I work with a team of translators, so good cooperation is the key. Together we explore solutions to tough translation problems. As we do, we consider not just words but groups of words. We weigh their real meaning and intent, constantly reminding ourselves of the target audience for each article.”

You can read the whole article on jw.org. If you do, please notice that Geraint's surname is never mentioned in the entire article!

I'm guessing the gb hasn't told you what surname means yet, so you don't know that it is the last name.



Read the article and tell me where you see his "surname"!

He is a WT "translator" who "turned down" a "university education" for pioneer service.

Hmm, so the whole argument is basically nothing to do with any particular lie but the fact that the guys a farmer? Is there anything in particular to debate about what the guy actually said or believes. I'm not really buying into, "this guy didn't go to college so he's a sham" argument. Also what does this "surname" thing have to do with anything?

 

[JoStories]

I don't think that suicide is worse than being killed because of what might happen after dying. If a person is killed, then the loved ones of the killed person have every right to be angry with the murderer. But if someone kills himself how are his loved ones to feel?

I would say it depends. Are the loved ones at blame for having neglected this person's pain? Or did they know at all? You seem to want to have someone to blame in either case. Sometimes, suicide is the only viable answer, particularly when someone is living in more pain than you can imagine. Whether that pain is physical or mental is moot as both can be horrific. Anger at either scenario seems to me to be the wrong emotion either way. Sadness maybe, for their loss. But anger has no place in the realm of death, IMO.

 

[JoStories]

My God is definitely not beyond questioning, in fact he tells us to use our power of reason to prove things to ourselves. (Rom 12:1, 2)

The fact that my God hates wickedness is a good thing. He tells us to hate it too. (Psalm 97:10)
Its just that sometimes humans don't understand wickedness from his perspective.

Taking sides in an issue that you haven't a personal acquaintance with is foolish. No one can judge any situation with one side of a story.

and yet it was questioning that resulted in this woman's rejection from the leaders of your faith. I don't see this as someone who was encouraged to ask anything. But what is wickedness? Who gets to define it? Do you live by all of the laws of the OT? And if you do not, why don't you? Christ either did away with all of those laws or he did not. But I digress. Wickedness has changed with time and with culture. What you call this mutable concept may not be what I call it.

I have a son who is terminally ill....you want to rephrase that? (see the scripture above)

Snarky comment aside, I am sorry about your son however, you have not lost your son yet. He still lives and breathes friend. And while in no way whatsoever am I diminishing your trials or your pain, having him there right now is not the same as losing him. And there is one other thing, ... sometimes losing a child to death can be better than losing them while living. A dead child can be mourned and one can move on from that. A child who cannot be seen or spoken to for 3 decades is much different. Not knowing what they are doing, never seeing the grandchildren or great grandchildren....EVER. Trust me..its not the same.

 

[savagewind]

I would say it depends. Are the loved ones at blame for having neglected this person's pain? Or did they know at all? You seem to want to have someone to blame in either case. Sometimes, suicide is the only viable answer, particularly when someone is living in more pain than you can imagine. Whether that pain is physical or mental is moot as both can be horrific. Anger at either scenario seems to me to be the wrong emotion either way. Sadness maybe, for their loss. But anger has no place in the realm of death, IMO.

I did not say the living are to blame for a suicide.
But surely a murderer is to blame for a murder.

If a person would commit suicide instead of continuing to live the circumstances for the person are worse than if he was murdered. The reason? A murdered victim might have been enjoying life before dying. A person who commits suicide is not enjoying life. Not enjoying is worse than enjoying. I think that is a fact. Isn't it?

Maybe anger at a murder isn't right but the response to it should be more than sadness, I think.

I think that sadness is an emotion which would not do anything against a murder. I think most things that are important to get done get done by angry people. I am sure that anger is not the perfect word, but do you understand that murder and murdering one's self is not right? As you say in some situations suicide might be right. I would not know. Is murder ever right?

 

[savagewind]

The debate on whether murder or suicide should make a living person feel a certain way was begun because it seems that some people who have been cut off from family and friends have committed suicide.

@JoStories do you believe that cutting off a person has nothing to do with him killing himself? If it does cause a person enough sadness to kill himself, then how are those cutting him off NOT at all responsible for it?

The Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups cut off people so that they might miss the affection of the group and come back. So if a person who was cut off comes back, the group has done right by him in their opinion and they all share some responsibility for his coming back, because that was their aim.

But, according to them and others, if the sadness is too much and he kills himself, they share no responsibility for that.

Am I understanding it correctly?

 

[JoStories]

I did not say the living are to blame for a suicide.
But surely a murderer is to blame for a murder.

If a person would commit suicide instead of continuing to live the circumstances for the person are worse than if he was murdered. The reason? A murdered victim might have been enjoying life before dying. A person who commits suicide is not enjoying life. Not enjoying is worse than enjoying. I think that is a fact. Isn't it?

Maybe anger at a murder isn't right but the response to it should be more than sadness, I think.

I think that sadness is an emotion which would not do anything against a murder. I think most things that are important to get done get done by angry people. I am sure that anger is not the perfect word, but do you understand that murder and murdering one's self is not right? As you say in some situations suicide might be right. I would not know. Is murder ever right?

No, the murder of another with malice and forethought is wrong no matter what. Murder done to protect one's family is vastly different, IMO. Even murder done will drugged or drunk is wrong. But suicide is a personal thing and while it does grieve the family sometimes, sometimes it does not. This is particularly true of those with no family, friends, etc. And suicide enacted due to chronic pain from such things as cancer with no hope whatsoever is something I feel is up to the person and should not be viewed as wrong. If there is no hope and the person lives in such pain as you have never endured, I see nothing wrong with taking one's life.

 

[JoStories]

The debate on whether murder or suicide should make a living person feel a certain way was begun because it seems that some people who have been cut off from family and friends have committed suicide.

@JoStories do you believe that cutting off a person has nothing to do with him killing himself? If it does cause a person enough sadness to kill himself, then how are those cutting him off NOT at all responsible for it?

The Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups cut off people so that they might miss the affection of the group and come back. So if a person who was cut off comes back, the group has done right by him in their opinion and they all share some responsibility for his coming back, because that was their aim.

But, according to them and others, if the sadness is too much and he kills himself, they share no responsibility for that.

Am I understanding it correctly?

You may be understanding this correctly but I would disagree that cutting off a person from the only group they have is a right action. Are you really so sure that God would want to disown this person just because they might disagree with some part of your dogma? If so, I would find that God reprehensible. As for them taking their lives, no, your group is not personally responsible. Suicide is a personal choice. That said, however, the group disowning this person could have impacted that choice.

 

[savagewind]

You may be understanding this correctly but I would disagree that cutting off a person from the only group they have is a right action. Are you really so sure that God would want to disown this person just because they might disagree with some part of your dogma? If so, I would find that God reprehensible. As for them taking their lives, no, your group is not personally responsible. Suicide is a personal choice. That said, however, the group disowning this person could have impacted that choice.

I agree that nobody is personally responsible for anyone else's choice, but if you have impacted anyone's choice to do bad, you are somewhat responsible imo.

A child who is being abused at home runs away. Are the parents responsible for the child's choice to run?

The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is a family. They call each other brothers and sisters. Some even call the organization their mother. By their good behavior do they hold any responsibility that other JWs stay with them? By anyone's bad behavior does that one hold any responsibility that other JWs leave and are shunned to hurtful loneliness?

By the way, I am not referring to pain that has no end, like terminal cancer. I am talking about putting someone out for disagreeing, which is VERY EASY TO FIX.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witness teach that "bad association spoil useful habits" are other people. That is why they practice shunning so very strongly.
It is true that if you spend a lot of time with people who are doing things that you believe are sins, your resolve to not sin will grow weak, usually.
I think to weaken your morality means to give strength to bad habits.
Can anyone prove to me that weakened morals means the same as "spoiled useful habits"?

Spoiled habits means you still do those things, but now the good you think you are doing is spoiled.

They teach that bad associations will cause a person to LEAVE their useful habits.

 

[savagewind]

Do not deceive yourself in any way because if you do, then all the good you do gets spoiled by any lie that you hold dear 1 Corinthians 15:33

Matthew 5:48

Deuteronomy 18:13

 

[Deeje]

and yet it was questioning that resulted in this woman's rejection from the leaders of your faith. I don't see this as someone who was encouraged to ask anything.

Since I know the rules, and I know what my brothers have to deal with at times, I can assure you that no one is disfellowshipped for disagreeing. It is what they do with their disagreement that determines the actions of the elders. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about. The "ex Witness" on this board and those who are just obsessed haters are not going to tell you the truth. They are going to feed off apostate lies and fire them as if they are gospel truth. All I can say is that they will be judged as they judge. You are free to believe whatever you like...it doesn't make it truth.

But what is wickedness?

It is going against the direct commands of God, whether willingly or by self imposed ignorance...either way, the end result is the same. (2 Thess 1:6-9)

Who gets to define it?

God does. He is the judge, not us. Our definition doesn't count at the end of the day.

Do you live by all of the laws of the OT? And if you do not, why don't you? Christ either did away with all of those laws or he did not.

The principles of the law apply equally today as they did back in ancient Israel. It is still wrong to commit adultery and fornication...to steal and to murder, but the one thing that changed when Christ came was the method of obtaining forgiveness.

But I digress. Wickedness has changed with time and with culture. What you call this mutable concept may not be what I call it.

Anyone can call it whatever they like. It doesn't make God go away...it doesn't diminish the validity of his laws....and it doesn't mean that we will not have to account to him for the life he has given us.

Snarky comment aside, I am sorry about your son however, you have not lost your son yet. He still lives and breathes friend. And while in no way whatsoever am I diminishing your trials or your pain, having him there right now is not the same as losing him. And there is one other thing, ... sometimes losing a child to death can be better than losing them while living. A dead child can be mourned and one can move on from that. A child who cannot be seen or spoken to for 3 decades is much different. Not knowing what they are doing, never seeing the grandchildren or great grandchildren....EVER. Trust me..its not the same.

Again you assume that this is not in the realms of my own experience. I lost my husband to an inherited neurological condition a year ago, and whilst my son is dying from this same disease, his daughter has cut herself off from the family and is expecting his first grandchild. It is likely that he will die without ever seeing this child. It is also likely that she has inherited the disease and has passed it on to her own child.
Please don't assume that others suffer less than yourself. Life deals us all some bitter blows sometimes. It is my faith that keeps me focused on the future, not the past or the awful present.