Trey of Diamonds
Well-Known Member
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I Need My Pain - YouTube
I Need My Pain - YouTube
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Another question about heaven and hell
- Thread starter Kerr
- Start date
everything comes from God , i will accept it .
you see the manipulated is bad thing , i see it good thing .
as i said before if i suffered by my memories in heaven , that will make less than this life . what is the different ? if my bad experiences (memories) follows me until the heaven
who is garantie you that you are not manipulated in this life ?
we are manipulated by the time line that God choice to us .
we are already manipulated from the first meeting of our parents , what we were ? ,we were just sprem and ege get united then , it's we became a baby ......etc utile our death .
this life time that i believe , yours is arrive until the comma:
we were death (were not existed) then we are alive then we will be death ( not exist), then we will be alive
The same as between living in a smelly and dirty village and living in a tropical paradise.everything comes from God , i will accept it .
you see the manipulated is bad thing , i see it good thing .
as i said before if i suffered by my memories in heaven , that will make less than this life . what is the different ? if my bad experiences (memories) follows me until the heaven
When I said manipulation I mean it in a similar fashion as lobotomy. No matter how you look at it, there is a rather huge difference between parenting and cutting in our brains. Heaven sounds like someone is taking a tool and cutting in our brain so we can only feel joy. Hell sounds like someone is doing the same but making so we can only feel pain. Would you consider that a good reward or punishment?
I am not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?
notice in this :
In Islam , we believe that the Heaven is not something you imagine , even whatever in your imagination it's better , it's over our imagination and as i said before ,it's the maximum happeness .
and the hell is the inverse (meaning)
in this is case you can not juge (prejuge) something you are not experience it yet .
as i told you , manipulation is matter of God , it's up to him to revive us in jugement day and it's up to him to disable the sadess when you get heaven .
as i believe that this life is considerate as a heaven of the disbelievers , because in jugement day there is only one way for them "Hell" .
maybe it's God revenge , why they did not believe in Him and His message, because He sent messanger to them , even they did good deed with people .
of course my friend
I just remember this verse of Quran
2-28
How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.
which mean , that we were death (we were not existed ) they He gave us life (NOW) then He will give us death ( we will not existed a period of time) , then will give us a life (resurrection) then we will return to Him (Judgement day)
i meant that your believe stop in the comma (,)
Last edited:
I know. It was meant to be more metaphorically then literally.
God was not a part of my argument. Perharps it was a failure on my part to realize how central he is to other peoples beliefs. In any case, lets change the argument a little. Instead of God, heaven and hell, lets say it is a government in this world who starts cutting in our brains to reward or punish us. Would you consider that meaningful? Or fair for that matter?
Ok, thanks for the clarification
.Is that the belief of Islam? Or you are giving only your own opinion. in the first place why should there be heaven and hell if man will both suffer in that places.
There is no pain in the heaven, no illness, no jealousy etc.
If you like somebody in the world and in the other world if this person is in the Hell, according tp islamic ressources there are two way to follow:
1-You forget him/her
2-or you will be with you whenever you want but the real person will be always in the hell
here is the some information about the Hell:
According to some narrations, Hell is beneath the earth. As we have explained in other places, in its annual orbit, the globe of the earth traces a circle around an area that in the future will the place of the Great Gathering and Last Judgement. It means Hell is beneath the area of its orbit. It is invisible and unperceptible because it consists of veiled and lightless fire. In the vast distance travelled by the earth are many creatures that are invisible because they are without light. Like the moon loses its existence when its light withdraws, we are also unable to see numerous lightless globes and creatures which are in front of our eyes.
There are two Hells, the Lesser and the Greater. In the future, the Lesser will be transformed into the Greater and is like its seed; in the future it will become one of its habitations. The Lesser Hell is under the earth, that is, at the earth’s centre. It is the inside and centre of the globe. It is known in geology that in digging downwards, the heat for the most part increases one degree every thirty-three metres. That means that since half the diametre of the earth is around six thousand kilometres, the fire at the centre is at a temperature of around two hundred thousand degrees, that is, two hundred times hotter than fire at the circumference; this is in agreement with what is related by Hadiths. This Lesser Hell performs many of the functions of the Greater Hell in this world and Intermediate Realm, and this is indicated in Hadiths. Just as in the World of the Hereafter, the earth will pour its inhabitants into the arena of the resurrection within its annual orbit, so too at the Divine command will it hand over the Lesser Hell within it to the Greater Hell.
Some of the Mu’tazilite imams said that “Hell will be created later” but this is mistaken and foolish, and arises from Hell not having completely opened up at the present time and developed into a form entirely appropriate to its inhabitants. In order to see with our worldly eyes the dwelling places of the World of the Hereafter within the veil of the Unseen and to demonstrate them, either the universe has to be shrunk to the size of two provinces, or our eyes have to he enlarged to the size of stars, so that we can see and specify their places. The knowledge is with Allah, the dwelling-places of the Hereafter are not visible to our worldly eyes, but as indicated by certain narrations, the Hell of the Hereafter is connected with our world. In a Hadith it is said of the intense heat of summer, “It gives an inkling of Hell.” That is to say, that Greater Hell is not visible to the tiny and dim eyes of the minds of this world. However, we may look with the light of the Divine Name of All-Wise, as follows:
The Greater Hell beneath the earth's annual orbit has as though made the Lesser Hell at the earth's centre its deputy and made it perform some of its functions. The possessions of the All-Powerful One of Glory are truly extensive; wherever Divine wisdom pointed out, He situated the Greater Hell there. Yes, an All-Powerful One of Glory, an All-Wise One of Perfection Who is owner of the command of ‘Be!’ and it is has tied the moon to the earth before and eyes in perfect wisdom and order, and with vast power and perfect order tied the earth to the sun, and has made the sun. travel together with its planets with a speed close to that of the annual rotation of the earth, and with the majesty of His Dominicality, according to one possibility, made it travel towards the sun of suns, and like a feet decked out with electric lights has made the stars luminous witnesses to the sovereignty of His Dominicality. It is not far from the perfect wisdom, tremendous power, and sovereignty of Dominicality of one thus All-Glorious to make the Greater Hell like the boiler of an electric light factory and with it set fire to the stars of the heavens which look to the Hereafter, and give them heat and power. That is, give light to the stars from Paradise, the world of light, and send them fire and heat from Hell, and at the same time, make part of that Hell a habitation and place of imprisonment for those who are to be tormented. Furthermore, He is an All-Wise Creator Who conceals a tree as large as a mountain in a seed the size of a finger-nail. It is surely not far then from the power and wisdom of such an All-Glorious One to conceal the Greater Hell in the seed of the Lesser Hell in the heart of the globe of the earth.
I n S h o r t : Paradise and Hell are the two fruits of a branch of the tree of creation which stretches out towards eternity. The fruits’ place is at the branch’s tip. And they are the two results of the chain of the universe; and the places of the results are the two sides of the chain. The base and heavy are on its lower side, the luminous and elevated on its upper side. They are also the two stores of this flood of events and the immaterial produce of the earth. And the place of a store is according to the variety of the produce, the bad beneath, the good above. They are also the two pools of the flood of beings which flows in waves towards eternity. As for the pool's place, it is where the flood stops and gathers. That is, the obscene and filthy below, the good and the pure above. They are also the two places of manifestation, the one of beneficence and mercy, the other of wrath and tremendousness. Places of manifestation may he anywhere; the All-Merciful One of Beauty, the All-Compelling One of Glory, establishes His places of manifestation where He wishes.
As for the existence of Paradise and Hell, they have been proved most decisively in the Tenth, Twenty-Eighth, and Twenty-Ninth Words. Here, we only say this: the existence of the fruit is as definite and certain as that of the branch; the result as the chain; the store as the produce; the pool as the river; and the places of manifestation as definite and certain as the existence of mercy and wrath.
Risale-i Nur Collection
If you like somebody in the world and in the other world if this person is in the Hell, according tp islamic ressources there are two way to follow:
1-You forget him/her
2-or you will be with you whenever you want but the real person will be always in the hell
here is the some information about the Hell:
According to some narrations, Hell is beneath the earth. As we have explained in other places, in its annual orbit, the globe of the earth traces a circle around an area that in the future will the place of the Great Gathering and Last Judgement. It means Hell is beneath the area of its orbit. It is invisible and unperceptible because it consists of veiled and lightless fire. In the vast distance travelled by the earth are many creatures that are invisible because they are without light. Like the moon loses its existence when its light withdraws, we are also unable to see numerous lightless globes and creatures which are in front of our eyes.
There are two Hells, the Lesser and the Greater. In the future, the Lesser will be transformed into the Greater and is like its seed; in the future it will become one of its habitations. The Lesser Hell is under the earth, that is, at the earth’s centre. It is the inside and centre of the globe. It is known in geology that in digging downwards, the heat for the most part increases one degree every thirty-three metres. That means that since half the diametre of the earth is around six thousand kilometres, the fire at the centre is at a temperature of around two hundred thousand degrees, that is, two hundred times hotter than fire at the circumference; this is in agreement with what is related by Hadiths. This Lesser Hell performs many of the functions of the Greater Hell in this world and Intermediate Realm, and this is indicated in Hadiths. Just as in the World of the Hereafter, the earth will pour its inhabitants into the arena of the resurrection within its annual orbit, so too at the Divine command will it hand over the Lesser Hell within it to the Greater Hell.
Some of the Mu’tazilite imams said that “Hell will be created later” but this is mistaken and foolish, and arises from Hell not having completely opened up at the present time and developed into a form entirely appropriate to its inhabitants. In order to see with our worldly eyes the dwelling places of the World of the Hereafter within the veil of the Unseen and to demonstrate them, either the universe has to be shrunk to the size of two provinces, or our eyes have to he enlarged to the size of stars, so that we can see and specify their places. The knowledge is with Allah, the dwelling-places of the Hereafter are not visible to our worldly eyes, but as indicated by certain narrations, the Hell of the Hereafter is connected with our world. In a Hadith it is said of the intense heat of summer, “It gives an inkling of Hell.” That is to say, that Greater Hell is not visible to the tiny and dim eyes of the minds of this world. However, we may look with the light of the Divine Name of All-Wise, as follows:
The Greater Hell beneath the earth's annual orbit has as though made the Lesser Hell at the earth's centre its deputy and made it perform some of its functions. The possessions of the All-Powerful One of Glory are truly extensive; wherever Divine wisdom pointed out, He situated the Greater Hell there. Yes, an All-Powerful One of Glory, an All-Wise One of Perfection Who is owner of the command of ‘Be!’ and it is has tied the moon to the earth before and eyes in perfect wisdom and order, and with vast power and perfect order tied the earth to the sun, and has made the sun. travel together with its planets with a speed close to that of the annual rotation of the earth, and with the majesty of His Dominicality, according to one possibility, made it travel towards the sun of suns, and like a feet decked out with electric lights has made the stars luminous witnesses to the sovereignty of His Dominicality. It is not far from the perfect wisdom, tremendous power, and sovereignty of Dominicality of one thus All-Glorious to make the Greater Hell like the boiler of an electric light factory and with it set fire to the stars of the heavens which look to the Hereafter, and give them heat and power. That is, give light to the stars from Paradise, the world of light, and send them fire and heat from Hell, and at the same time, make part of that Hell a habitation and place of imprisonment for those who are to be tormented. Furthermore, He is an All-Wise Creator Who conceals a tree as large as a mountain in a seed the size of a finger-nail. It is surely not far then from the power and wisdom of such an All-Glorious One to conceal the Greater Hell in the seed of the Lesser Hell in the heart of the globe of the earth.
I n S h o r t : Paradise and Hell are the two fruits of a branch of the tree of creation which stretches out towards eternity. The fruits’ place is at the branch’s tip. And they are the two results of the chain of the universe; and the places of the results are the two sides of the chain. The base and heavy are on its lower side, the luminous and elevated on its upper side. They are also the two stores of this flood of events and the immaterial produce of the earth. And the place of a store is according to the variety of the produce, the bad beneath, the good above. They are also the two pools of the flood of beings which flows in waves towards eternity. As for the pool's place, it is where the flood stops and gathers. That is, the obscene and filthy below, the good and the pure above. They are also the two places of manifestation, the one of beneficence and mercy, the other of wrath and tremendousness. Places of manifestation may he anywhere; the All-Merciful One of Beauty, the All-Compelling One of Glory, establishes His places of manifestation where He wishes.
As for the existence of Paradise and Hell, they have been proved most decisively in the Tenth, Twenty-Eighth, and Twenty-Ninth Words. Here, we only say this: the existence of the fruit is as definite and certain as that of the branch; the result as the chain; the store as the produce; the pool as the river; and the places of manifestation as definite and certain as the existence of mercy and wrath.
Risale-i Nur Collection
arthra
Baha'i
Kerrr I broke down your post and put them in italics and responded as I could using a Baha'i perspective as I understand it:
Kerr wrote:
Heaven is, from what I understand, supposed to be a place without sorrow or suffering. Hell is the opposite.
My comment:
Simply put the Baha'i view is that Heaven is nearness to God while "hell" is being alienated from God..
Kerr:
Everyone cannot make it to heaven so they end up in hell. That means that some peoples loved ones will end up in hell. If someone know their loved one is in hell while they are in heaven, and if heaven is a place without sorrow, something must be keeping that someone from feeling, well, sad.
My comment:
Well "everyone" is at different stages of this... Some of us are also in the same "boat" that is we share our state with others... Now we can ask or rather pray to God to have mercy on others ... may be they injured us or we would like God to have mercy on them and help them understand better...but it's an ongoing process so the demarcation line between heaven and hell may not be so clear.. more like a continuum over time.
Kerr:
If something is keeping us from feeling sad then that something is messing with our minds. If something is messing with our minds to remove sadness then its manipulating who we are. So what is the point of heaven as a reward and hell as a punishment if something is manipulating our minds when we come there? Or am I just thinking in a weird way now?
Comment:
Yeah I'm not sure about the "...something is messing with our minds.." part, that does sound a little "weird" to me. We have this life as an opportunity to develope spiritually, if we mess that up we are where we are but God can have mercy on us and others can still pray or intercede with God on our behalf. We just don't sit on our clouds and learn to play harps...
Kerr:
Do note that I am assuming someone would actually know their loved one is in hell (how you could not know that when they are not in heaven is beyond me, though).
Comment:
I'm not sure what we'll know about others anymore than what we know in this life... How close are we in this life to others? I didn't know what my younger brother was up to when he was alive until my father told me and then I was going talk to my brother but he was taken before I was able to meet him.. I still love my brother and pray for him though! It might be simialr in the next life.
One thing though I don't think as Baha'is we necessarily have to have a road map of the next world. While we're in this life we have an idea what we are supposed to be doing in this life and can only pray that we will be near God in the next!
Great questions!
Kerr wrote:
Heaven is, from what I understand, supposed to be a place without sorrow or suffering. Hell is the opposite.
My comment:
Simply put the Baha'i view is that Heaven is nearness to God while "hell" is being alienated from God..
Kerr:
Everyone cannot make it to heaven so they end up in hell. That means that some peoples loved ones will end up in hell. If someone know their loved one is in hell while they are in heaven, and if heaven is a place without sorrow, something must be keeping that someone from feeling, well, sad.
My comment:
Well "everyone" is at different stages of this... Some of us are also in the same "boat" that is we share our state with others... Now we can ask or rather pray to God to have mercy on others ... may be they injured us or we would like God to have mercy on them and help them understand better...but it's an ongoing process so the demarcation line between heaven and hell may not be so clear.. more like a continuum over time.
Kerr:
If something is keeping us from feeling sad then that something is messing with our minds. If something is messing with our minds to remove sadness then its manipulating who we are. So what is the point of heaven as a reward and hell as a punishment if something is manipulating our minds when we come there? Or am I just thinking in a weird way now?
Comment:
Yeah I'm not sure about the "...something is messing with our minds.." part, that does sound a little "weird" to me. We have this life as an opportunity to develope spiritually, if we mess that up we are where we are but God can have mercy on us and others can still pray or intercede with God on our behalf. We just don't sit on our clouds and learn to play harps...
Kerr:
Do note that I am assuming someone would actually know their loved one is in hell (how you could not know that when they are not in heaven is beyond me, though).
Comment:
I'm not sure what we'll know about others anymore than what we know in this life... How close are we in this life to others? I didn't know what my younger brother was up to when he was alive until my father told me and then I was going talk to my brother but he was taken before I was able to meet him.. I still love my brother and pray for him though! It might be simialr in the next life.
One thing though I don't think as Baha'is we necessarily have to have a road map of the next world. While we're in this life we have an idea what we are supposed to be doing in this life and can only pray that we will be near God in the next!
Great questions!
Wasnt that his point? That if heaven has suffering, no matter how little, it would mean heaven is not needed in the first place? Or have I misunderstood you?
What I meant is that if you look for your loved ones in heaven and dont find them no matter how much you look it would be natural to feel at least a little sad when you realize they are in hell. If you dont then something is effecting your mind.
Also do note that I am specifically talking about the idea of heaven and hell as reward and punishment. Dont think my questions are that relevant to the idea that heaven is being close to God and hell being distant from him, since it is not literal places for reward or punishment but rather "states" you enter... like how having a positive attitude towards life vs a negative one can influence your mental health. I hope that makes sense.
I am moving this answer out of order so that I could explain the above. So if you wonder why the middle of your post is at the top, that is why
.I dont have any issue with that view, tbh
. It is similar to how attitude can effect how your life turns out.Seems logical to me.
Good point. Was speaking about a very specific idea of heaven and hell, though, and not in general.
Great answersGreat questions!
.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
If you are brainwashed on entrance to heaven, you're not who you were anymore. You're someone else.But to keep everyone who has a family in hell from knowing their family is in hell you have to mess with their minds in some way. Or am I missing something?
EDIT:
So tired I am not sure I understand what you mean
I am totaly agree with this .
is may God make as virtual person that we loved ? but the real one in Hell , it's could be happened , because everything we wish it will happened. execpt some wishs which are not authorities , like i want to realise all my friends from the Hell !!! or i want to own this heaven , and stay alone in heaven , or i want to be God ....all these wishs are not authorise for my opinion .
http://www.saidnur.com/en/index.htm