Another RCC Sex Scandal!

[metis]

Changes may have been made but how does that excuse the repeated failings of the past?

Who's excusing them? If you think it's I, then you're not reading what I'm writing.

It is a majority catholic problem and the problem

But how do you know that? Because the RCC is more centralized in terms of leadership than their Protestant counterparts, their flaws (as well as their successes) tend to be more noticeable.

IMO, both adultery and pedophelia are deplorable, so I don't see these as being defensible. Instead, my main concern is that both be dealt with wherever they may occur, but what I run across all the time is that so many people pile on the RCC but not on their own church/denomination/religion/secularism.

To put it bluntly, it's all too often a victim of scapegoating that feeds an anti-Catholic bigotry that's all too rampant in this country, imo.

BTW, just a reminder that I am neither Catholic, Christian, or any kind of conventional theism (see my faith statement at the bottom of this post for clarification of the latter). My concern is fairness in evaluating and dealing with these problems, and all too often this fairness is MIA.

The RCC is dealing with the problem, so let's see if there's going to be improvement, but that will take some time.

 

[metis]

As an organization, the Catholic Church I don't think has many redeeming qualities.

That does explain your bias, so thanks for clarifying where you're coming from.

The Roman Catholic Church is one of the longest lived, wealthiest, and most powerful organizations ever, and unless it becomes politically and socially obsolete and insignificant, I don't see it becoming any more capable of driving away and not attracting those who lust for money and power and will do harm to others to get it, nor replacing those too cowardly and pass blame with those who will speak out and take appropriate action.

Any organization can be nit-picked apart, including the secular ones. This idea of church wealth is often very misunderstood and maybe should be discussed on a different thread (such as where do you think the church get's the vast majority of its money from, and who really owns it? the pope? the cardinals? the bishops? who?).

Frankly, I don't share your worm's-eye view of the church because I see both good and bad in it. Generally speaking, I almost always respect your viewpoints even if I'm not always on-board with you, but not on this. Maybe if you saw the church from the inside as I do, you might see at least some things differently.

 

[Skwim]

Nope it's pedophilia. Note the difference, one is desire for their own gender engaged in by consenting adults and one involves sexual desires of underage children.

Why the confusion?

Here is an article that you may find educational
Homosexuality and Pedophila: The False Link | HuffPost

Interesting in light of:---------------- (The figures are for the USA at large)

Figure 1 graphically depicts Table 3.5.4, and shows the numbers of alleged victims of sexual abuse incidents grouped by gender and age. One can clearly see that the percentage of victims is overwhelmingly male.

​

source​

So even if we don't take into account the often made statement that, percentage wise, the incidence of homosexuals in the priesthood is much greater than the population at large, it's obvious that there's a hell of a lot more homosexual pedophilia going on than heterosexual pedophilia. From 11 years old and up it accounts for 85.3% of all cases.

So, although homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing, homosexual pedophilia is by far the most common. Therefore, while it is incorrect to call pedophile priests "homosexuals," considering human nature I think it's easy to see why some people do.



.

 

[ChristineM]

Who's excusing them? If you think it's I, then you're not reading what I'm writing.



But how do you know that? Because the RCC is more centralized in terms of leadership than their Protestant counterparts, their flaws (as well as their successes) tend to be more noticeable.

IMO, both adultery and pedophelia are deplorable, so I don't see these as being defensible. Instead, my main concern is that both be dealt with wherever they may occur, but what I run across all the time is that so many people pile on the RCC but not on their own church/denomination/religion/secularism.

To put it bluntly, it's all too often a victim of scapegoating that feeds an anti-Catholic bigotry that's all too rampant in this country, imo.

BTW, just a reminder that I am neither Catholic, Christian, or any kind of conventional theism (see my faith statement at the bottom of this post for clarification of the latter). My concern is fairness in evaluating and dealing with these problems, and all too often this fairness is MIA.

The RCC is dealing with the problem, so let's see if there's going to be improvement, but that will take some time.

I am reading exactly what you are writing, that it happens but things have changed.

The rcc clergy are barred from legitimate sex, most other faiths aren't. The results are widely reported, thats how i knows that.

Adultery by definition concerns adults an therefore is no concern of yours.

Land there you go again, making excuses for the rcc

Your faith is not my concern, your comments are.

It is doing to little to deal with historical abuse.

 

[Vouthon]

He will receive a fair and free trial, and if he is guilty then justice will be served. I pray that justice is served.

Nothing can ever truly heal the scars left by sexual abuse but we must pray that this evil at least be purged and exposed for all to see wherever it hides and no matter the office or title of the perpetrator.

 

[ChristineM]

Interesting in light of:---------------- (The figures are for the USA at large)

Figure 1 graphically depicts Table 3.5.4, and shows the numbers of alleged victims of sexual abuse incidents grouped by gender and age. One can clearly see that the percentage of victims is overwhelmingly male.

​

source​

So even if we don't take into account the often made statement that, percentage wise, the incidence of homosexuals in the priesthood is much greater than the population at large, it's obvious that there's a hell of a lot more homosexual pedophilia going on than heterosexual pedophilia. From 11 years old and up it accounts for 85.3% of all cases.

So, although homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing, homosexual pedophilia is by far the most common. Therefore, while it is incorrect to call pedophile priests "homosexuals," considering human nature I think it's easy to see why some people do.



.

No argument here, homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing. Most abuse is carried out against boys by priests who happen to be male

 

[Glaurung]

When you tell men that they must not marry or have sex, you are setting up the perfect situation for trouble.

It is not as if anyone is forced into becoming clergy.

The Bible says that a bishop should have one wife.

It also says that celibacy is to be preferred. Both Paul and Christ state this.

Why would the church decide to disregard this and forbid marriage? Isn't their religion supposed to come from the Bible?

There is also apostolic tradition, much of which isn't explicitly laid out in the Bible. As an ideal clerical celibacy goes back to at least the fourth century (Synod of Elvira) and that a synod would discuss it in itself suggests a precedent for the idea. (It's there even in the Bible). Of course it was an ideal, but it puts to rest the claim that celibacy was an arbitrary imposition of the middle ages.

As for the idea that Christianity is derived primarily and exclusively from the Bible, ask yourself how and by whose authority could a biblical canon even be complied without an extra-biblical tradition to inform that compilation?

They ignore what God says and set themselves up for trouble. And they think they are God's church? They should follow what God says.

But you cannot get a full picture of what God has revealed by taking Scripture in isolation. The Scriptures themselves even state such. 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

And God told Adam and Eve to populate the earth. Kind of difficult if they were celibate. People were made to marry and have children.

Celibacy is promised by clerics and religious (members of religious orders) otherwise getting married and starting a family is a perfectly valid (and commended) path for a Catholic. Holy Matrimony is even a sacrament. If anyone can be said to be ignoring God's call to procreation, it's the secular society at large. We've become so adapt at avoiding it that many developed nations are facing a demographic implosion in the not too far distant future. We're failing to replace ourselves and that's hardly the fault of Catholic teaching.

 

[metis]

The rcc clergy are barred from legitimate sex, most other faiths aren't. The results are widely reported, thats how i knows that.

But the reporting is not uniform as I explained. What may happen at your local Methodist church is not likely to make the national news, so if you live outside that area you would be unaware of the problem.

Adultery by definition concerns adults an therefore is no concern of yours.

Adultery can and has destroyed families, so I would suggest that it is and should be a concern.

Land there you go again, making excuses for the rcc

Now you are being totally disingenuous as I am in no way excusing what pedophile priests do and the failure of the church to address the problem properly.

It is doing to little to deal with historical abuse.

And this shows that you are not following what's been happening at the Vatican and elsewhere in regards to this.

There has been and still is a problem withing the RCC, but they are trying to deal with it. But your anti-Catholic bigotry obviously prevents you from even acknowledging that. You can see the fault in what they have done, but you seemingly cannot see your own bigotry.

So, for you to judge the entire church in such a bigoted fashion, while at the same time not being able to see your own shortcomings, is truly hypocritical. It is unethical to blame an entire organization for what a minority may do, especially since this organization has made some changes from top to bottom.

Bigotry is bigotry, disingenuousness is disingenuousness, so where does it stop, ChristineM?

 

[ChristineM]

But the reporting is not uniform as I explained. What may happen at your local Methodist church is not likely to make the national news, so if you live outside that area you would be unaware of the problem.

Adultery can and has destroyed families, so I would suggest that it is and should be a concern.

Now you are being totally disingenuous as I am in no way excusing what pedophile priests do and the failure of the church to address the problem properly.

And this shows that you are not following what's been happening at the Vatican and elsewhere in regards to this.

There has been and still is a problem withing the RCC, but they are trying to deal with it. But your anti-Catholic bigotry obviously prevents you from even acknowledging that. You can see the fault in what they have done, but you seemingly cannot see your own bigotry.

So, for you to judge the entire church in such a bigoted fashion, while at the same time not being able to see your own shortcomings, is truly hypocritical. It is unethical to blame an entire organization for what a minority may do, especially since this organization has made some changes from top to bottom.

Bigotry is bigotry, disingenuousness is disingenuousness, so where does it stop, ChristineM?

So please provide examples of little published, non rcc abuse

So you feel it is up to you to interfere in the lives of other adults?

You seem unaware of the contents of your posts. I really have no other way to put this but you are defending child abuse in the rcc because you say it happens else where, what else am i to think?

Yet still historical child abuse is still being hidden and ignored.

When did i judge the entire rcc, seems you have fallen on hyperbole, i made statements based on fact, nothing more, nothing less, and child abuse is child abuse, so where does it stop?

Seems fact pushes your button's for some reason.

 

[metis]

I really have no other way to put this but you are defending child abuse in the rcc because you say it happens else where, what else am i to think?

This is going to be my last post on this with you because you are being entirely dishonest, and I really don't like to engage people who do that. I have repeatedly denounced the actions of some of the RCC clergy, denounced how the church handled this, and also said it will take some time to know if recent changes will have much of an effect.

When did i judge the entire rcc, seems you have fallen on hyperbole, i made statements based on fact, nothing more, nothing less, and child abuse is child abuse, so where does it stop?

Because when I point out what I just say above, your bizarre and disingenuous response is that I'm somehow defending the church on this, and then you continue on your RCC rant while at the same time playing childish little games when I mention that this problem is simply not just a Catholic problem. I would think the RCC has had more of a problem with this than most other churches, but there really is no way to tell that for sure.

But, either way, it is a problem not just confined to the RCC, although this in no way justifies the RCC's slowness and inadequacy with dealing with this problem.

Anyhow, respond if you want, but we're done.

 

[ChristineM]

This is going to be my last post on this with you because you are being entirely dishonest, and I really don't like to engage people who do that. I have repeatedly denounced the actions of some of the RCC clergy, denounced how the church handled this, and also said it will take some time to know if recent changes will have much of an effect.

Because when I point out what I just say above, your bizarre and disingenuous response is that I'm somehow defending the church on this, and then you continue on your RCC rant while at the same time playing childish little games when I mention that this problem is simply not just a Catholic problem. I would think the RCC has had more of a problem with this than most other churches, but there really is no way to tell that for sure.

But, either way, it is a problem not just confined to the RCC, although this in no way justifies the RCC's slowness and inadequacy with dealing with this problem.

Anyhow, respond if you want, but we're done.

Suit yourself but remember something very important, i have no god therefore i have no need to lie. None... Meaning i don't lie no matter how much it tips up your apple cart. So go sulk if that makes you feel better, i have no time for anyone who condones child abuse so yes, we are done here

 

[metis]

I have no time for anyone who condones child abuse so yes, we are done here

Since you are continuing to be completely dishonest by repeatedly saying I condone child abuse when I repeatedly have stated in numerous posts that I certainly don't, you'll be a permanent entry on my ignore list. Your utter dishonesty is appalling, and you are being totally hypocritical when saying that some are acting immorally when you act immorally yourself.

Goodbye

 

[ChristineM]

Since you are continuing to be completely dishonest by repeatedly saying I condone child abuse when I repeatedly have stated in numerous posts that I certainly don't, you'll be a permanent entry on my ignore list. Your utter dishonesty is appalling, and you are being totally hypocritical when saying that some are acting immorally when you act immorally yourself.

Goodbye

Yes we know what you say, we also know what you post. The two do not seem to match. However you have chosen to hide rather than honestly discuss your posts, that choice is yours.