Another school-related mass killing.

[beenie]

I'm glad you are ok, Quag. Very scary to be so close to this.

I don't think we can ignore mental health OR the availability of weapons to just anyone. Sure, "guns don't kill people..." but when in the wrong hands, such as those with severe mental issues like this kid, they do. My grandfather carried legally, and never drew his gun on anyone; he wasn't mentally ill.

It's not realistic to blame mental illness alone without addressing access to guns too. The stabbings were horrific too, so don't go saying I ignored those. Let's face it though, it takes a lot longer to stab 10 people to death than to drive by and clip them off with a shotgun/semi-automatic, etc.

We have real issues with mental health in our (and most) culture. The elephant in the room is getting bigger and bigger.

 

[Alceste]

I'm glad you are ok, Quag. Very scary to be so close to this.

I don't think we can ignore mental health OR the availability of weapons to just anyone. Sure, "guns don't kill people..." but when in the wrong hands, such as those with severe mental issues like this kid, they do. My grandfather carried legally, and never drew his gun on anyone; he wasn't mentally ill.

It's not realistic to blame mental illness alone without addressing access to guns too. The stabbings were horrific too, so don't go saying I ignored those. Let's face it though, it takes a lot longer to stab 10 people to death than to drive by and clip them off with a shotgun/semi-automatic, etc.

We have real issues with mental health in our (and most) culture. The elephant in the room is getting bigger and bigger.

Sure, guns kill people faster and it kind of goes without saying that we shouldn't be letting homicidal nutters buy guns.

But the mental illness issue is much more pressing, IMO. In Canada, we had two high profile murders I can think of in the last few years that could have been prevented with adequate mental health treatment. In both cases, knives were the weapon of choice. In one case, my mother's five year old student was one of the victims, stabbed to death with the rest of her family by her own father. She strongly believes that mental health treatment would have prevented that particular tragedy. This stuff doesn't happen out of the blue. There are warning signs.

In Canada, though, it's exceedingly difficult to get help with mental illness unless you're already so far gone you want to kill yourself or somebody else. Even then, you have to check yourself in. They don't seek you out. Police will arrest and take you to the hospital you if you're causing a major disturbance, but not if you're quietly skulking around the greyhound station with a machete looking for someone to chop the head off of.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Sure, guns kill people faster and it kind of goes without saying that we shouldn't be letting homicidal nutters buy guns.

But the mental illness issue is much more pressing, IMO. In Canada, we had two high profile murders I can think of in the last few years that could have been prevented with adequate mental health treatment. In both cases, knives were the weapon of choice. In one case, my mother's five year old student was one of the victims, stabbed to death with the rest of her family by her own father. She strongly believes that mental health treatment would have prevented that particular tragedy. This stuff doesn't happen out of the blue. There are warning signs.

In Canada, though, it's exceedingly difficult to get help with mental illness unless you're already so far gone you want to kill yourself or somebody else. Even then, you have to check yourself in. They don't seek you out. Police will arrest and take you to the hospital you if you're causing a major disturbance, but not if you're quietly skulking around the greyhound station with a machete looking for someone to chop the head off of.

Bingo! Mental health has been swept under the rug. The parents even told the cops about his videos and the cops simply dropped the ball.

 

[beenie]

Sure, guns kill people faster and it kind of goes without saying that we shouldn't be letting homicidal nutters buy guns.

But the mental illness issue is much more pressing, IMO. In Canada, we had two high profile murders I can think of in the last few years that could have been prevented with adequate mental health treatment. In both cases, knives were the weapon of choice. In one case, my mother's five year old student was one of the victims, stabbed to death with the rest of her family by her own father. She strongly believes that mental health treatment would have prevented that particular tragedy. This stuff doesn't happen out of the blue. There are warning signs.

In Canada, though, it's exceedingly difficult to get help with mental illness unless you're already so far gone you want to kill yourself or somebody else. Even then, you have to check yourself in. They don't seek you out. Police will arrest and take you to the hospital you if you're causing a major disturbance, but not if you're quietly skulking around the greyhound station with a machete looking for someone to chop the head off of.

Completely agree with you, Alceste. Mental health is still taboo in many parts of the world, and it's really pathetic. Somehow we've separated the brain and hormones from blood and hearts. Have a sick heart? We have meds and surgeons ready for action. Sickness in the brain? *crickets*

Sad.

 

[esmith]

You know what would be really cool? If this thread could stay on topic, and not get derailed into one of those interminable gun debates.

The issue here is untreated mental illness, and a police force that failed to intervene in time to prevent this tragedy. IMO, when you post a video promising to slaughter dozens of people, you should wake up the next day in the mental hospital and not be released until you've got your issues under control.

Makes total sense to me. However, there are those that feel that this type of action would be violating their rights, but seem to forget about the perpetrator violating the rights of his victims.

 

[Apex]

The issue here is untreated mental illness, and a police force that failed to intervene in time to prevent this tragedy.

:clap

 

[LuisDantas]

and wouldn't it be wonderful if people wanted to lead better lives. The reality is many don't care. And while they may care so little that laws will not change their behavior.

Would they be expected to?

But that doesn't entail abandonment of law. Quite the contrary, this only emphasizes the need of law.

Says who?!?

What is one to do when faced with the likes of murderers and rapists?

Deal with the causes of the problem. Enprisonment may be unavoidable, but it is no better than containing the effects.

What is one supposed to do when faced with corporations without regard to the environment?

Boycott them. Refuse to work for them.

What is one supposed to do when faced with someone who damages their property and refuses to pay compensation?

If that happens at all often or seriously, I would guess that a good choice would be to conclude that this community that person lives in is troubled and needs to be evacuated. Or, better yet, revitalized.

 

[dust1n]

What about them? They are receiving virtually all of the attention! Gun-critics, journalists, and even some of the victim's familes are blaming the shootings on everything from corrupt politicians to the NRA. Yet not one word is being said about the three men who were stabbed to death.

"Elliot Rodger was a misogynist. This cannot really be in doubt about a young man who went out on Friday, armed with three semi-automatic shotguns he had bought legally, to punish all women for rejecting him sexually.

"You girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it," he wrote in his manifesto. "I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one."

That Rodger ended up killing twice as many men (Cheng Yuan Hong, 20, George Chen, 19, Weihan Wang, 20, and Christopher Ross Michaels-Martinez, 20) as women (Katherine Breann Cooper, 22, and Veronika Elizabeth Weiss, 19) on his shooting spree isn't relevant. Misogynists with murderous intent often end up killing men when they set out to kill women (a woman's new partner or a male friend, for example)."

Elliot Rodger was a misogynist

Not to mention, I heard a remembrance for all the victims on NPR today.

 

[Ablaze]

Just attended the memorial service at UCSB - a beautiful outpouring of compassion, unity, and courage in the face of tragedy.

:candle:

 

[Apex]

"Elliot Rodger was a misogynist. This cannot really be in doubt about a young man who went out on Friday, armed with three semi-automatic shotguns he had bought legally, to punish all women for rejecting him sexually.

"You girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it," he wrote in his manifesto. "I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one."

That Rodger ended up killing twice as many men (Cheng Yuan Hong, 20, George Chen, 19, Weihan Wang, 20, and Christopher Ross Michaels-Martinez, 20) as women (Katherine Breann Cooper, 22, and Veronika Elizabeth Weiss, 19) on his shooting spree isn't relevant. Misogynists with murderous intent often end up killing men when they set out to kill women (a woman's new partner or a male friend, for example)."

Elliot Rodger was a misogynist

Not to mention, I heard a remembrance for all the victims on NPR today.

Cool, he was a misogynist. Not really relevant to what I was talking about, but whatever.

 

[kashmir]

You know what would be really cool? If this thread could stay on topic, and not get derailed into one of those interminable gun debates.

The issue here is untreated mental illness, and a police force that failed to intervene in time to prevent this tragedy. IMO, when you post a video promising to slaughter dozens of people, you should wake up the next day in the mental hospital and not be released until you've got your issues under control.

Exactly.
This one girl robbed a bank and then uploaded a video of her bragging about it, showing off the money and what she was going to do with the money, she was arrested all due to the video, less than a few hours later.

Apparently the shooters mom (on the OP) told the cops, as far as I can tell, nothing was done.
I do not even know if the cops even watched the videos.

 

[Alceste]

Exactly.
This one girl robbed a bank and then uploaded a video of her bragging about it, showing off the money and what she was going to do with the money, she was arrested all due to the video, less than a few hours later.

Apparently the shooters mom (on the OP) told the cops, as far as I can tell, nothing was done.
I do not even know if the cops even watched the videos.

Yes, this awful crime could so easily have been prevented.

 

[Curious George]

Would they be expected to?



1Says who?!?



2Deal with the causes of the problem. Enprisonment may be unavoidable, but it is no better than containing the effects.




3Boycott them. Refuse to work for them.




4If that happens at all often or seriously, I would guess that a good choice would be to conclude that this community that person lives in is troubled and needs to be evacuated. Or, better yet, revitalized.

bold and enumeration added.

1. Says reason and logic.

2. How would you imprison someone without a legal system. We cannot even agree what the root causes are, let alone the best approach to addressing said problems. how are we supposed to magically address them.

3. This only works if everyone is on board. A little problem occurs when a monopoly arises, and the corporation produces something fundamental to life.

4. Happens all the time. Examples, auto accidents, vandalism, employment injuries etc. Are you advocating that if harm is coming to your property by a particular person, you should cut your losses and run, or possibly plant a community garden. Are you serious?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Told ya, anyone could be a terrorist, not just Muslims

On the serious note tho, I give my condolences to the families and friends of the departed

I heard purchasing guns in the States is easy. Is this true?

 

[kashmir]

Told ya, anyone could be a terrorist, not just Muslims

On the serious note tho, I give my condolences to the families and friends of the departed

I heard purchasing guns in the States is easy. Is this true?

Scuse me but the kid was mentally ill, he wasn't blowing up unknown innocent people for his "god".
They are not even remotely the same concept.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Scuse me but the kid was mentally ill, he wasn't blowing up unknown innocent people for his "god".
They are not even remotely the same concept.

Okay

I hope he was indeed, and not covered up by the media or the court for some reason!

 

[methylatedghosts]

I've been trying to put my thoughts on this topic into words, not getting very far, when blogger Mark Manson seems to have done a fine job for me in his latest How we all miss the point on school shootings

While of course, some work needs to be done in the arenas of gun control and mental health and security etc, this last paragraph is where I think most of the work needs doing.

Despite being relevant and important discussions, the glamorous headlines are ultimately distractions — they just feed into the carnage and the attention and the fame the killer desired. They are distractions from what is right in front of you and me and the victims of tomorrow’s shooting: people who need help. And while we’re all fighting over whose pet cause is more right and more true and more noble, there’s likely another young man out there, maybe suicidally depressed, maybe paranoid and delusional, maybe a psychopath, and he’s researching guns and bombs and mapping out schools and recording videos and thinking every day about the anger and hate he feels for this world.

And no one is paying attention to him.

 

[dust1n]

Cool, he was a misogynist. Not really relevant to what I was talking about, but whatever.

"Yet not one word is being said about the three men who were stabbed to death."

That's what I was responding to.

EDIT: Oh never mind.. I thought you were trying to make a point about the guys being murdered not getting a word, not the fact it was stabbing (as opposed to a gun death, or whatever). Sorry about that.