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Another Thread on Morality

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
This sort of echos my hypocrisy view of morality.
I think they can be seen as good because they are adopted and embraced by people, and what makes the moral failings of an individual is to deny another those same things that you have in your own life for no good reason. I mean if there is a hypothetical psychopath who is so disconnected from life that he is totally incapable of engaging with or recognising such things as happiness, fulfilment freedom peace etc in his own life, one does question whether he is capable of acting morally at all as he doesn't know any better. But that's a bit different.

But you just repeated yourself. Why does he need to feel happiness, fulfillment, freedom, peace, etc.? Sure you can define those as good feelings, but maybe he doesn't, or just doesn't care.



What's more powerful is that the arguments are relevant. Why is torturing people for fun wrong? Well because human beings seek to be happy and free from pain, and the torturer knows this of himself, (you dont see him getting that treatment) and yet he does it anyway. Someone pointing out that has a stronger argument than him just claiming that simply by virtue of it being his opinion that it's ok to do it.

Why is what a lot (not all) human beings seek, what determines moral and immoral, wrong and right? Why is listening to a majority better than listening to a minority?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Sum, I'll stop reiterating this point, because I don't want to be annoying. But you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Or I misinterpreted your OP. I thought you were asking why morality exists at all - on the most basic, fundamental level. But after seeing your posts to others, it looks like you're asking why certain people take certain actions to enact certain morals. Even then, it can be traced back to survival, even though we can be largely unaware of that motive.

In fact, the imperative to survive doesn't need us to be aware of it at all in order to operate.

If you're interested, try out some readings about philosophy of the mind, behaviorism, and the self.

If moral base is just survival, then rid all of the unneeded laws and just put "survive if you want to" and let people do what they will to survive.
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
Your morality tells you who the criminals are and they should go to prison because of your moral system.

"If you don't like mountain dew you are going to prison, and you're going to prison because my morality says your evil, and my morality says your evil because you don't like mountain dew." It goes in circles.
It's not circular. My morality is the premise and prison is the conclusion. I don't think criminals are "evil" but I'll go along with your example.

1. My morality tells me that evil people should go to prison.
2. My morality tells me that you are evil.
3. Therefore, my morality tells me that you should go to prison.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Define successful. Hitler's society was not successful and it had functional ethic systems.

They were irrational ethic systems, which lead to a failed state.

Consequences because people make these consequences by calling them immoral.

If someone punched you in the face, it would cause you injury regardless of whether or not others consider it immoral. Wouldn't you desire some sort of protection or deterrence to prevent or at least limit the chances of such a thing happening to you? And what effect do you think it would have upon a society if people could simply go around punching others with impunity?

You're just playing coy.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Or imprisoned them for having different opinion of what is good.

Imprisonment for ignorance seems extreme. Although it depends what their ignorance leads to.

Not all of us strive for peace and harmony though, in fact I found the idea of it impossible and unnecessary, and those that do branch off into different types of peace and harmony themselves: some prefer human peace and harmony, some prefer world peace and harmony, some prefer just cultural peace and harmony, some prefer race peace and harmony, others gender, etc.

If people don't want peace and harmony and prefer chaos and disorder then that's fine. But they better not think they can force that on us. Conform or move along.

Question. Do you believe that there is anything that all humans strive for?

What makes them the characteristics of us? It seems very unlikely that it could be a characteristic of an apex predatory primate that dominates the world with pollution, not sharing money among starving humans, having political problems all of the time.

They are characteristics that humans show.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not circular. My morality is the premise and prison is the conclusion. I don't think criminals are "evil" but I'll go along with your example.

1. My morality tells me that evil people should go to prison.
2. My morality tells me that you are evil.
3. Therefore, my morality tells me that you should go to prison.

You're using morality for evidence for your morality's correctness though, and taking people to prison because of that.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
They were irrational ethic systems, which lead to a failed state.

Why are they irrational? What makes yours' more rational?



If someone punched you in the face, it would cause you injury regardless of whether or not others consider it immoral. Wouldn't you desire some sort of protection or deterrence to prevent or at least limit the chances of such a thing happening to you? And what effect do you think it would have upon a society if people could simply go around punching others with impunity?

You're just playing coy.

Why does what I want = what is good and evil? And no I don't desire some sort of protection to prevent it, I don't make other people care about me, if they want to they can do that on their own.

I don't want to get robbed either, but I don't consider it evil. I don't want to be thrown into a gas chamber, but I don't consider it evil, because those are just opinions.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Imprisonment for ignorance seems extreme. Although it depends what their ignorance leads to.

It's hypothetical :p



If people don't want peace and harmony and prefer chaos and disorder then that's fine. But they better not think they can force that on us. Conform or move along.

If people don't want chaos and disorder and prefer peace and harmony then that's fine. But they better not think that they can force that on us. Conform or move along.

Question. Do you believe that there is anything that all humans strive for?
I think individuals can strive for something, but not something that all humans agree on.


They are characteristics that humans show.

And why does what they are doing is what they ought to do?
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
You're using morality for evidence for your morality's correctness though, and taking people to prison because of that.

In what way am I using it as evidence for correctness? In what way could it be correct or incorrect? Morality is merely strong opinions of like and dislike for certain behaviors.
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
But you just repeated yourself. Why does he need to feel happiness, fulfillment, freedom, peace, etc.? Sure you can define those as good feelings, but maybe he doesn't, or just doesn't care.

I dont think im being very eloquent in my answers, i apologise for that.
Now what i mean by acting in a morally good way is to have an awareness for the lives that other people live, lives that are for the most part similar to your own, at least with regards to certain core experiences, such as pain, fear, dread, hunger, happiness, peace and content. At a minimum a person should be able to infer based on their own life what they can expect others likely experience. They certainly shouldn’t assume others experience anything less than they do themselves. We are all of the same species of course and sense dictates that we are all going to have a lot of similarities.


Because when boils down to it, morality is an issue for the individual, making choices based of their current perspective. When someone lives a life that incorporates happiness as something worthwhile, embraces freedom, avoiding pain and suffering and extreme hunger, this standard that they have for themselves should be emulated in the way they treat others. Allowing a relatively lower standard for others than yourself for no good reason is the fundamental basis of immorality.

Now clearly what is good or bad with regards to a human life is really defined by the individual, (how can you know pain without experiencing it or have the capacity to experience it yourself) and one could stretch the imagination to think of someone for whatever reason who thinks pain is good.
But the major fail-safe in the system of interaction is that of freedom, and no matter what the person perceives as good in their own life (pursuit of pain), they cant impose it upon another without exercising a freedom that they deny the other person in doing so. Their respect for freedom in their own life as evident by 'spreading the pain' imposes on that freedom of others.

We can regress this theoretical character further, but we basically reach a point where we have a creature that no longer has the capacity to be a moral agent at all. The delirious brain damaged psychopath lacks the faculties to recognise the things that are needed to make one morally aware.

Now just to note this is in my opinion why different issues hold different moral weight. Issues relating to murder, and life and death are very prominent, because all of us poses a life, and any one of us should understand that everyone else holds at least an equally valuable life to that of our own. One cant arbitrarily assume another person has a less valuable life. But on the other hand issues based on say, decor and design dont have much connection to an overall human nature, and one can imagine how people vary greatly in their views. Also you know from your own life that decor isnt the most important of things. Thus these issues are obviously different to those of life and death. Hence how a spectrum of moral weight can emerge


Why is what a lot (not all) human beings seek, what determines moral and immoral, wrong and right? Why is listening to a majority better than listening to a minority?

I think this is slightly misunderstanding me, i agree that an overall cold numbers game doesn’t serve to get to the bottom of what is moral. Mob rule certainly isnt moral. But what is relevant is the ability to project your life and experiences to those around you, to be in touch with what they likely experience as conscious feeling creatures like urself, and to avoid acting in a manner that does them harm for no good reason. (harm as defined as bad though your own subjective life). This is to be morally in tune.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
In what way am I using it as evidence for correctness? In what way could it be correct or incorrect? Morality is merely strong opinions of like and dislike for certain behaviors.

If it is just an opinion, why arrest people?
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
It's hypothetical :p

lol :p

If people don't want chaos and disorder and prefer peace and harmony then that's fine. But they better not think that they can force that on us. Conform or move along.

:yes:

I think individuals can strive for something, but not something that all humans agree on.

even happiness?

And why does what they are doing is what they ought to do?

Because it benefits our race more than not doing it ofc :p
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
If moral base is just survival, then rid all of the unneeded laws and just put "survive if you want to" and let people do what they will to survive.

Moral base IS about survival, and what you see around you is what is.

Like I said, survival is the fundamental base, the meta view, and all extends from that, no matter how complex.

The most basic drives living beings have are to **** and to not die. In that order. Complicated laws evolved from those two imperatives. If you want to remove whatever you consider unnecessary, you have to actively try to influence that.

:D
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
If it is just an opinion, why arrest people?

Why not? It's my opinion that arresting people is sometimes the best course of action. Whay is your position, that we should not have laws? That they need to be based on something other than opinions? What then should they be based on?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Myself, I don't see how to agree with the OP. Morality is objective and unavoidable enough, because it arises from the very real consequences of our goals and deeds.

Its acceptance and understanding may be less than well-developed in our cultures, but that is no reason to deny its spontaneous arising and objective reality.
 

McBell

Unbound
I've said this many times, I've been arguing it for quite a while, and see a few people have agreed with this idea themselves on this forum. I know I wasn't the first who come up with it, but I did come up with it on my own, still don't want to acknowledge it but acknowledging it more and more everyday:

This was a debate with myself (X believes in morality, Me doesn't):

X:"Nazis were evil weren't they?"
Me:"I don't agree with the Nazis, nor do I like them but that doesn't mean they were evil."
X:"They killed thousands."
Me:"Why is killig evil?"
X:"Because it is morally wrong."
Me:"Says who?"
X:"Well, do you really want a guy coming into your house and killing you?"
Me:"No, but who says what I don't want and what I do want is the universal truth of what we should and shouldn't do?"
X:"Ninety-nine percent of people wouldn't want to get killed either, so it is wrong by law."
Me:"And yet, murderers are allowed to get killed without it being wrong?"
X:"Because they did something wrong..."
Me:"You're contradicting yourself. Why does the guy who wants to kill me get no say in wanting to kill me? I'm sure a majority of people would like to kill someone."
X:"Because the killer is not a majority."
Me:"So? As I said, I'm sure a vast majority of people have had murdering dreams or dreams to not go to work and get free money, why isn't that legal?"
X:"Because if nobody has jobs, there'd be no production and there'd be no electricity or anything."
Me:"So?"
X:"We'd all be suffering."
Me:"And?"
X:"That's bad"
Me:"Why?"
X:"There would be no happiness in the world if everyone could kill."
Me:"Why is happiness good?"
X:"Well, everyone wants to be happy, they want what they want, if they want pain it'll make them happy."
Me:"Okay? But because for the certain fact that people want different things and get happy for different things, it proves there can be happiness with anarchy or a world with no morality or ethics. All you'd gotta do is do what you want to do. If you want to smell good, take a shower. If you want to live, kill the murderer before he kills you, etc."

Couldn't think of anymore arguments further.


So... yeah, what determines killing, lying, stealing, etc. to be wrong? Unless there is a God saying "No killing!" there is only opinions on what is wrong and right, on what we ought to do.

And because they are opinions, why tell others what they ought to do?
mo·ral·i·ty
noun
: beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior

: the degree to which something is right and good : the moral goodness or badness of something

Source

Seems to me the key word in the above definition is "beliefs"
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
mo·ral·i·ty
noun
: beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior

: the degree to which something is right and good : the moral goodness or badness of something

Source

Seems to me the key word in the above definition is "beliefs"

And beliefs are subjective, aren't they? At least when it comes to things being good and bad, since they have to do with emotion and therefore bias. "The cheesecake was good"
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Myself, I don't see how to agree with the OP. Morality is objective and unavoidable enough, because it arises from the very real consequences of our goals and deeds.

Its acceptance and understanding may be less than well-developed in our cultures, but that is no reason to deny its spontaneous arising and objective reality.

But these goals are subjective, and so how can morality not be subjective? Perhaps a better word would be relative.
 
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