Answered Prayers

[TransmutingSoul]

It is a spiritual sickness that has attacked all Faiths and in the past the Covernants were not so clear, rendering them open to lasting division, in this age it is clear and any attempt has been hewn from the tree of Baha’u’llah. They lay on the ground withered, dying, unable to produce fruit and soon to be used in the fire,

All this appears to be to me is an elaborate strawman of a group such as the Unitarian Baha'i Tony, but what would you know? Have you ever read their writings and sayings or do you just content yourself with the strawmen of the Haifa Universal House of Justice?

This is an example as to how the Covernant breakers are used as firewood Daniel. All part of an old world order that is being consumed in the fire of Materialism.

The Universal House of Justice, who's seat is on Mount Carmel, is a product and fruit of the Covernant.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Except its not because Unitarian Baha'i appear to see themselves as following Baha’u’llah's covenant

How they 'see themselves' is of no matter. Can they prove they are following Baha’u’llah's covenant?

 

[Stevicus]

No, it is not like that.

Definition​

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Baháʼís or former Baháʼís.[12] Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Baháʼí Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.[13]

Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baha'is are individuals who define who they are and what they believe in their own way. Nobody gets to decide who is a "true Baha'i" and who is not.

There are central tenets of the Baha'i Faith that all Baha'is adhere to, and then there are many different teachings, but we do not all relate to those in the same way. These are our personal beliefs and they require no endorsement of some central authority. For example, Baha'u'llah wrote that God is All-Loving and I question that, but nobody is coming after me and excommunicating me from the Baha'i Faith for holding my own opinion.

Who decides who is a Covenant Breaker? Would those who you believe to be Covenant Breakers call themselves that? Or would they call themselves Baha'i?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How they 'see themselves' is of no matter. Can they prove they are following Baha’u’llah's covenant?

No they are not able to, they even tried and failed in courts to claim they had rights to Baha'i properties etc.

You can clearly see what they were after in their court cases.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

This is an example as to how the Covernant breakers are used as firewood Daniel. All part of an old world order that is being consumed in the fire of Materialism.

Your accusation of materialism against the Unitarian Baha'i and others without independent investigation of your strawmen is duly noted.

The Universal House of Justice, who's seat is on Mount Carmel, is a product and fruit of the Covernant.

Regards Tony

In your opinion, not necessarily in the opinion of other Baha'i groups.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who decides who is a Covenant Breaker? Would those who you believe to be Covenant Breakers call themselves that? Or would they call themselves Baha'i?

The Universal House of Justice, the elected 9 representatives are the only Body that can give that sanction.

It is not taken lightly and every person would have been given ample opportunity for consultation, or invitations to consult.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

As is sadly too often the case I find your disregard of the context presented by the person you were speaking to

You did that, not me. When I said "nobody" I meant nobody else but the Baha'i believer.
My post was not about Covenant-breakers who are no longer Baha'is under the Covenant.

Baha'is are individuals who define who they are and what they believe in their own way. Nobody gets to decide who is a "true Baha'i" and who is not.​

​

There are central tenets of the Baha'i Faith that all Baha'is adhere to, and then there are many different teachings, but we do not all relate to those in the same way. These are our personal beliefs and they require no endorsement of some central authority. For example, Baha'u'llah wrote that God is All-Loving and I question that, but nobody is coming after me and excommunicating me from the Baha'i Faith for holding my own opinion. #151​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In your opinion, not necessarily in the opinion of other Baha'i groups.

Every Bahai I know and Baha'i group throughout the world, in every Nation, would have the same basis to give a complimentary opinion.

If you are talking about a handful of people who have been cut off from Baha'u'llah, their opinion is not part of the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

How they 'see themselves' is of no matter.

I disagree

Can they prove they are following Baha’u’llah's covenant?

Can you prove you are following Baha'u'llah's covenant to the exclusion of them?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You did that, not me. When I said "nobody" I meant nobody else but the Baha'i believer.
My post was not about Covenant-breakers who are no longer Baha'is under the Covenant.

Baha'is are individuals who define who they are and what they believe in their own way. Nobody gets to decide who is a "true Baha'i" and who is not.​

​

There are central tenets of the Baha'i Faith that all Baha'is adhere to, and then there are many different teachings, but we do not all relate to those in the same way. These are our personal beliefs and they require no endorsement of some central authority. For example, Baha'u'llah wrote that God is All-Loving and I question that, but nobody is coming after me and excommunicating me from the Baha'i Faith for holding my own opinion. #151​

In fact, Love, hugs and all the best.

Which I also offer to all humanity, which is inclusive of Covernant Breakers.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

You did that, not me. When I said "nobody" I meant nobody else but the Baha'i.

But that is highly unlikely to be the way @steviunderstood your use of the term "nobody" and your failure to define such an extremely semantic use of the term is precisely what makes it so misleading in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I disagree

Can you prove you are following Baha'u'llah's covenant to the exclusion of them?

The proof is in submission to Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Who decides who is a Covenant Breaker?

Only the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) can decide that.

Would those who you believe to be Covenant Breakers call themselves that?

No, probably not, because they would probably question the legitimacy of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.
@TransmutingSoul would know about the history behind that.

Or would they call themselves Baha'i?

They do call themselves Baha'is, but I can call myself married even though I am a widow.

 

[danieldemol]

Every Bahai I know and Baha'i group throughout the world, in every Nation, would have the same basis to give a complimentary opinion.

If you are talking about a handful of people who have been cut off from Baha'u'llah, their opinion is not part of the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

There you go reverting to your *no true Scotsman* approach in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

The proof is in submission to Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

That is your interpretation of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. As such it does not constitute "proof" in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree

Why would it matter how they see themselves?

Can you prove you are following Baha'u'llah's covenant to the exclusion of them?

No, I can't, since I am not very proficient in the history of the Baha'i Faith, but I am sure @TransmutingSoul or @Truthseeker can prove that.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is highly unlikely to be the way @steviunderstood your use of the term "nobody" and your failure to define such an extremely semantic use of the term is precisely what makes it so misleading in my view.

People misunderstand posts all the time since no post can be tailored so it is understood by everyone as the writer intended it to be understood.
It might have been misleading but I straightened it out with @Stevicus later.

 

[Little Dragon]

If someone prays for something and it happens(for whatever reason) they will say/may say "See! God is real. He listened and answered my prayer".

It's understandable. Not logical, but understandable. The idea that a 2+ Trillion galaxy creator, takes an active and detailed interest in the day to day minutae of some newly sentient creatures (geological time frame speaking) upon one of countless worlds, in the extremely vast universe, is fascinating.

Also, why would the all knowing first causing universe creating God, master of space and time, intervene in matters, He'd had foreknowledge of, and that in fact He was the primary causation of? Why interfere in your own master plan, alter the course of the universe itself? Just to make a biped feel temporarily better. until the next "bad" thing happens, like an expensive gas bill?

 

[Trailblazer]

Also, why would the all knowing first causing universe creating God, master of space and time, intervene in matters, He'd had foreknowledge of, and that in fact He was the primary causation of?

God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen. People cause things to happen by making choices and acting on them.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[danieldemol]

Why would it matter how they see themselves?

It matters because people have a right to self identification as I see it. Secular governments have no place determining how people religiously identify themselves and students of history are surely aware of the troubles which have arisen due to theocratic interference in matters of personal belief.

Perhaps just aa importantly it matters because to the wider public people who identify themselves with a certain faith are considered part of that faith, and therefore when you say any statement to the effect of there are no other Baha'i groups you are misleading people into thinking there are no other groups that identify themselves with the Baha'i faith unless you explain in full that there are other groups which consider themselves Baha'i which you do not consider to be *truly* Baha'i in my view.

But that's not how the conversation usually goes with Baha'i loyal to the Haifan based UHoJ. It usually goes like this as I see it;
Wider community: "are there any Baha'i sects?" (meaning are there any sects which identify with the Baha'i faith)
Haifan Baha'i: (knowing what the wider community mean and answering a different question instead) "no there are no Baha'i sects" (meaning there are no other sects they see as truly Baha'i which is not the question they are being asked).

That is what I see as misleading.