Answering Atheists

[nPeace]

It is merely assumed that the bible is correct and that God is omnipotent and omniscient. After all, it is quite a feat to have made the whole universe and made life.

Isn't it possible that God is not morally perfect (had sex with Mary to make Jesus, but Mary was married to Joseph at the time). God flooded the world and killed a lot of innocents.

After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they were kicked out and Satan was given dominion of earth. When God allowed Satan to have power, it is like cooperating with Satan. Therefore, Satan's sins are God's sins (for allowing it, and promoting it).

Maybe God believes that some day Satan will turn good?

That's quite a huge "can of worms", but not fitting for this thread. Sorry.

 

[nPeace]

God has to be the author of predation as the author of the world's physics. As an omnipotent and omniscient being, God would not only know all possible worlds to create, but have the power to actualize any of them.

It is possible to have a world without predation: in fact, it's possible to have a world without any kind of physical suffering: all it would take would be for God to create the world with different physics.

It follows that if God is capable of creating a world without physical suffering, but created a world where physical suffering is possible anyway, that God is culpable for that suffering.

You would know better than I do, that they are different forms of matter, and I think you know that it is highly likely that there are form of both energy and matter, man has not 'discovered'.
An omniscient God, one who is all wise, would know which forms would have which requirements, needs, etc.

Just as you are aware of adaptation, God would be billions of times more advanced in this knowledge.
So, it is interesting to note that when God created life forms, he fed them vegetation, for which there is an abundance, both on land and in waters.

Sometime after the flood, that changed as food was scarce, and predation was introduced. Adaptation would have been taking place, and who knows, but it could have been quite rapid.

However, the Bible says God created the earth for flesh to live on. Not the other lifeforms... which do not depend on what flesh need.
The perfectly balanced ecosystems demonstrates the wisdom of the creator.

Yes, you are correct. God is capable of creating a world where there is no suffering... and he did. The life forms in the spirit realm - the heaven - do not suffer.
There has, and will never be, suffering in heaven.
That's why some humans think that they need to go there to leave all suffering behind.
That's why pastors preach it, and sing that tune.

However, God is also capable of creating a 'world' on this said planet earth, where suffering does not exist.
He promised it. It's guaranteed.
(Revelation 21:3-5) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's like me saying during an eating competition, the man can't finish his meal... because he hasn't finished... and he still has time to do so.
My inference is based on a bias... perhaps. Or, I just think I know what I don't know.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your analogy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And when God eliminates evil, many of them say, God is evil. Can’t make them happy.

Example?

 

[nPeace]

Interesting, i don't remember any mention of ISIS or the nuclear bomb in the bible.

Exactly. So let's not go beyond the things writen.
(1 Corinthians 4:6) Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride. . .

 

[nPeace]

For instance, it is logically impossible to kill what can not be killed.



I am not sure I understand you.
You say God can't do abrakadabra but then you exemplify cases where God has done abrakadabra.

Tell me please. What's "Abrakadabra"?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

One example of both:

The Death of the Midianite Women
14 But Moses was furious with the officers of the army, the commanders over thousands and commanders over hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 16 Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor—which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 17 Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has been intimate with a man in bed. 18 But all the young women who have not experienced a man’s bed will be yours.

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 31 - New English Translation

Moses was not promoting rape here. That is you not understanding and misrepresenting things.

 

[Koldo]

Tell me please. What's "Abrakadabra"?

Magic, as in "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Moses was not promoting rape here. That is you not understanding and misrepresenting things.

What's your understanding of "but all the young women who have not experienced a man’s bed will be yours"?

No objection to the murder part, I see. Ordering the execution of non-combatants - including children - taken prisoner is clearly murder (and also a war crime).

 

[nPeace]

Why do you keep using these sorts of analogies after the problems with them have been pointed out?

I'm wondering the same thing, since you evidently don't get any of them.
You don't point out any problem with them, at least I don't see that you do.
I guess we'll just continue until someone get something.

A human parent is not the designer of their child. A human parent does not have the omniscience to see exactly what their child will grow to be or the omnipotence to guide them onto a different path. The God of the PoE does.

That's not the point. Could you review my response in relation to your comment.

Do you agree that we are each responsible for the foreseeable, avoidable consequences of our actions?

I don't understand the question, sorry. What do you mean by "foreseeable, avoidable consequences"?

Because he knowingly set in motion the chain of events that ended up with Satan and all of Satan's actions. If God foresaw them, then God chose all of them.

That's like saying if I make a swimming pool, and I saw that some nut would throw his baby in the pool, I am responsible for his actions, because one nut should stop me from making several folk happy.
If you fail to get that one, I'll try one more time..

Please consider, your arguments may sound good to you, but you may need to listen to how they sound to the one listening.
Do you know how to do that?

Yes. We don't choose our desires.

It's like that Penn Jillette quote:

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero."

The difference between Penn Jillette - or me, or most people - and a rapist or a murderer isn't a matter of free will or "freedom." The difference is a matter of desires that we had no control over.

The reason I'm not a murderer isn't because I've successfully used my free will to avoid acting on my desire to murder; the reason I'm not a murderer is because I just don't have the desire to murder anyone.

That's what you believe. Is this a modern way of thinking.
A desire to have sexual relations with another man's wife is not a choice?
Seem you are saying we are born with certain desires, from which we can't help ourselves.

We disagree on this also.
Desire and pleasure in choice

Do you agree that *I* have free will? If so, then you must recognize that people can have free will without having the desire to rape or murder.

Of course. That's why there is no excuse for those claiming they can't help themselves.

... so why did God implant this desire in some people, then?

God implanted in people a desire to rape?

Because the God we're talking about is the ultimate source of everything in the universe.

Including our own character, which we develop, and our thoughts and intentions... No.
We are the source of what we become. That's why a son or daughter does not have to be like their drunken mother, or abusive dad.

Do you disagree with this assumption? If so, tell me what things you think ultimately come from a source other than God.

Of course I disagree. Don't ask me what I think of it... please.

Where did wrong desires come from?
That's probably one of the easiest questions the Bible answers.

(Leviticus 19:17) . . .You must not hate your brother in your heart. . .
(Deuteronomy 8:2) . . .Remember the long road that Jehovah your God made you walk these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble you and to put you to the test so as to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.
(Deuteronomy 15:9) . . .Be careful not to harbor this evil idea in your heart. . .
(1 Kings 8:18) . . .But Jehovah said to my father David, ‘It was your heart’s desire to build a house for my name, and you did well to desire this in your heart.
(1 Chronicles 17:2) . . .Nathan replied to David: “Do whatever is in your heart, for the true God is with you.”
(Psalm 58:2) . . .Instead, you devise unrighteousness in your heart, And your hands dispense violence in the land.
(Isaiah 14:12, 13) 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north.
(Ezekiel 28:1, 2) 1 The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, tell the leader of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Because your heart has become haughty, you keep saying, ‘I am a god. I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the sea.’ But you are only a man, not a god, Though in your heart you feel that you are a god.
(Ezekiel 28:13-17) 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. You were adorned with every precious stone —Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysolite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; And their settings and mountings were made of gold. They were prepared on the day you were created. 14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16 Because of your abundant trade, You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire. 17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor. I will throw you down to the earth. I will make you a spectacle before kings.
(Matthew 15:19, 20) . . .out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man. . .

Did you notice... it starts in the heart. Not the physical pump - the beating vessel, but the inner person (inner man) - the real you or me. The actions follow.
Your heart represents whom you really are on the inside - the real you.
That's why it's what Jehovah searches -
(Jeremiah 17:10) . . .I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, Examining the innermost thoughts, To give to each one according to his ways, According to the fruitage of his works.

It tells him what others can't see. Sure, others can see the outward you. They can see the "mask" you wear, but Jehovah sees behind all of that.

We are even deceived by the heart.
(Jeremiah 17:9) . . .The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?

What we may be telling ourselves, may be what the heart wants us to hear. That's why we are warned about trusting in our heart.
(Proverbs 21:2) All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the hearts.
(Proverbs 28:26) . . .Whoever trusts in his own heart is stupid. . .

Our heart can also condemn us.
So no. The Satan fellow had a wrong thought and desire. He dwelled on it, untill it became fertile.
What led to it? The Bible says, pride.
Thinking too much of one's self. It could be beauty, knowledge, position or status. A prideful heart leads to folly, and ultimately, a crash.
(Proverbs 16:18) . . .Pride is before a crash, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm wondering the same thing, since you evidently don't get any of them.
You don't point out any problem with them, at least I don't see that you do.
I guess we'll just continue until someone get something.


That's not the point. Could you review my response in relation to your comment.


I don't understand the question, sorry. What do you mean by "foreseeable, avoidable consequences"?


That's like saying if I make a swimming pool, and I saw that some nut would throw his baby in the pool, I am responsible for his actions, because one nut should stop me from making several folk happy.
If you fail to get that one, I'll try one more time..

Please consider, your arguments may sound good to you, but you may need to listen to how they sound to the one listening.
Do you know how to do that?


That's what you believe. Is this a modern way of thinking.
A desire to have sexual relations with another man's wife is not a choice?
Seem you are saying we are born with certain desires, from which we can't help ourselves.

We disagree on this also.
Desire and pleasure in choice


Of course. That's why there is no excuse for those claiming they can't help themselves.


God implanted in people a desire to rape?


Including our own character, which we develop, and our thoughts and intentions... No.
We are the source of what we become. That's why a son or daughter does not have to be like their drunken mother, or abusive dad.


Of course I disagree. Don't ask me what I think of it... please.

Where did wrong desires come from?
That's probably one of the easiest questions the Bible answers.

(Leviticus 19:17) . . .You must not hate your brother in your heart. . .
(Deuteronomy 8:2) . . .Remember the long road that Jehovah your God made you walk these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble you and to put you to the test so as to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.
(Deuteronomy 15:9) . . .Be careful not to harbor this evil idea in your heart. . .
(1 Kings 8:18) . . .But Jehovah said to my father David, ‘It was your heart’s desire to build a house for my name, and you did well to desire this in your heart.
(1 Chronicles 17:2) . . .Nathan replied to David: “Do whatever is in your heart, for the true God is with you.”
(Psalm 58:2) . . .Instead, you devise unrighteousness in your heart, And your hands dispense violence in the land.
(Isaiah 14:12, 13) 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north.
(Ezekiel 28:1, 2) 1 The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, tell the leader of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Because your heart has become haughty, you keep saying, ‘I am a god. I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the sea.’ But you are only a man, not a god, Though in your heart you feel that you are a god.
(Ezekiel 28:13-17) 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. You were adorned with every precious stone —Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysolite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; And their settings and mountings were made of gold. They were prepared on the day you were created. 14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16 Because of your abundant trade, You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire. 17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor. I will throw you down to the earth. I will make you a spectacle before kings.
(Matthew 15:19, 20) . . .out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man. . .

Did you notice... it starts in the heart. Not the physical pump - the beating vessel, but the inner person (inner man) - the real you or me. The actions follow.
Your heart represents whom you really are on the inside - the real you.
That's why it's what Jehovah searches -
(Jeremiah 17:10) . . .I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, Examining the innermost thoughts, To give to each one according to his ways, According to the fruitage of his works.

It tells him what others can't see. Sure, others can see the outward you. They can see the "mask" you wear, but Jehovah sees behind all of that.

We are even deceived by the heart.
(Jeremiah 17:9) . . .The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?

What we may be telling ourselves, may be what the heart wants us to hear. That's why we are warned about trusting in our heart.
(Proverbs 21:2) All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the hearts.
(Proverbs 28:26) . . .Whoever trusts in his own heart is stupid. . .

Our heart can also condemn us.
So no. The Satan fellow had a wrong thought and desire. He dwelled on it, untill it became fertile.
What led to it? The Bible says, pride.
Thinking too much of one's self. It could be beauty, knowledge, position or status. A prideful heart leads to folly, and ultimately, a crash.
(Proverbs 16:18) . . .Pride is before a crash, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.

So is it just the human heart that wasn't created by God, or was it human beings as a whole?

What else in the universe do you think God didn't create?

 

[nPeace]

Once again, how could we? I make no case for anything non-existent having any characteristics at all, except not being.

However, we do make the argument (and make the case, by the way) that the actions attributed to God by many believers are totally immoral. It can NEVER be right, for example, to punish someone for their errors by killing their child. The God the Jews and Christians believe in did that twice -- Pharaoh's son and David and Bathsheba's. It can NEVER be right to punish the innocent, and the God that Jews and Christians has done that multiple times: the flood, the slaughter of the Canaanites and others.

These things, combined with the fiction also invented of this God of Abraham is, according to those believers, also omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent prove that it is myth and fable, not fact.

Can you answer the following please.
Are you God? Then how did you become judge of who is innocent?
Are you the absolute authority on what is right or wrong? Then how can you determine that something is wrong... especially when there is no absolute morality, according to you?

Pharaoh's son was not innocent. God would not put him to death if he were. Neither was the illegitimate child Bathsheba bore David in an illegal disapproved marriage.
Nor were those that died in the flood, the Canaanites Perizzites etc.
The meekest man in the 14 century knew this..
(Genesis 18:25) . . . It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?”

It's repeated. God does not execute the innocent, or the righteous. He is always just.

God determined who dies - the ultimate judge, and absolute moral authority. The one deserving of that because he created the things in heaven and on earth.
What have you made, that can compare?

If you want to say there is no God, fine, but to say the creator has no right to do what you don't like... you don't have anything to validate your position.

 

[nPeace]

What evil? What is evil? An example of evil?

Anything in opposition to good is evil. God sets the standard of what is good and bad. Therefore he determines what is evil. We don't get to decide that. Although humans do, but they are the world alienated from God, so they decide on their own terms.
God does not deal with that.
Jesus came... conquered the world. When God's kingdom comes, the world with its own standards will go... according to the Bible.
(1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.

Only those who conform to God's standards will remain.
They consider what's evil from God's standpoint.

 

[nPeace]

Is Voldemort evil in the Harry Potter books? Do you have to believe that Voldemort actually exists to say yes?

From an atheist perspective, the Bible is (partly) a work of fiction. One of the fictional characters is YHWH. Some of us find that character to be evil *in the context of the book*.

If an Atheist reads something as a fairy tale, and describes the character as he sees it. That's fine.
When the Atheist makes the claim that he does not make the argument against the character, that's not fine. That's my point.

Don't say Atheists don't do something, when they clearly do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If an Atheist reads something as a fairy tale, and describes the character as he sees it. That's fine.
When the Atheist makes the claim that he does not make the argument against the character, that's not fine. That's my point.

Don't say Atheists don't do something, when they clearly do.

Generally, I take a person's concept of God as an expression of their own ideas of perfection and virtue.

I'll generally try to avoid being pulled off into a side debate about whether their God really is an anthropomorphism of their values, but that's always the take on "God" in the back of my mind.

If you want to treat your internal values as an external being that you call "God"... sure, I can play along.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Suffering always is momentary. Either one recovers, or dies. Either way it does not last forever.
He could know, but all knowing does not mean has to know.
God does not shut up whistle blowers. He makes them fall on their face, as they are proven liars... as in Satan's case.

Suffering is not momentary. Think of the HIV+ people. Think of people who endure hunger for years together. Think of women who were taken away by IS (Taliban in Afghanistan now) and repeatedly raped.
You mean there are things that God does not know - because he does not want to know? Is human suffering is one of those things?
You think those who persecute people, murderers and rapists are whistle-blowers whom God should not destroy?
I wonder at the kind of twisted thinking the theists have!

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

We disagree.

If an champion boxer allows his opponent to "win" the first two rounds of three, he is not a champion, eh?

I don't think you're understanding what "all-powerful" means. And, the secondary issue with this, if your god intends for all this mess, then he's not "all-good."

 

[nPeace]

The father is not all knowing, or all powerful.

If the father *was* all knowing and all powerful, then yes, the father created a thief.

Explain that "logic" please.

Did God know ahead of time what Satan would do? If so, and God allowed Satan to come into existence through processes that God created, then yes, God created Satan.

Satan would be a creation by the one who became Satan.
Satan means opposer.
An opposer is one who resists or is in opposition to another in this case, God.
God would not have created the opposer.
God created the one who became an opposer.

So here is what you are saying.
God creates Jack, knowing what Jack would do. Jack makes a bomb. Therefore God created the bomb.
In the age of A.I, scientists make RoboX with the ability to "think". RoboX, makes a chip to override its program. Therefore scientists made a chip to override RobotX's built in system.

Is that about accurate?

No, I cannot. I can choose, based on my wants, whether to obtain fish or beef. But I do not choose which one I actually want.

No. That's not correct. Say what?

If God is *all knowing* and *all powerful*, then anything that derives from God's actions is the responsibility of God. That includes the formation of Satan. If God allowed Satan to come into being, knowing Satan would be evil, then God shares in that evil.

That "reasoning" is flawed.
Knowledge does not make one responsible for the actions of anyone
The ability to stop something, does not make one responsible for someone's actions.

Having knowledge just means, one know something. They have not shared in what they know.
Having power to stop something does not mean that stopping that thing is the right thing to do.

Someone can have knowledge that a person will sabotage a submarine. They may also have knowledge that the sabotaging of the submarine is necessary, in order for the marines to realize the flaw in their security.
That person is not responsible for the actions, nor the consequences. The erson is an observer.
If they take action to stop the sabotaging, they will have to take action for every security breech... all of which will be greater than the first.
They would be the fix-it-all, patching up every problem the unlearned make.

Bringing that home to the OP.
The reason people make the terrible mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world is because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. Satan has been allowed to rule the world.
Does that mean God is not all-powerful? No. The reason Satan has that authority, is because God gave it to him.
God takes responsibility for allowing man's futility after that point - not for Satan's actions.

So during the limited time Satan is allowed to rule, God does not help Satan rule. If he did, he would be responsible for Satan's actions, in that when Satan's "puppets" wreck havoc, and God intervenes, making Satan's rulership look good, he is supporting Satan' argument, that man c rebel against God, and be successful and blessed.

Will God take responsibility for the lives lost during the time he allow manking to be subjected to futility?
The answer...
(Isaiah 25:8) He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

(John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out. . .

(Revelation 20:12, 13) 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.

Yes. God give them life in a new world wher they are free from suffering, and have the prospect of enjoying that life, forever.

That's fair enough, don't you think?

 

[ChristineM]

Exactly. So let's not go beyond the things writen.
(1 Corinthians 4:6) Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride. . .

So your isis etc is a guess... Ok, thanks

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can you answer the following please.
Are you God? Then how did you become judge of who is innocent?
Are you the absolute authority on what is right or wrong? Then how can you determine that something is wrong... especially when there is no absolute morality, according to you?

Pharaoh's son was not innocent. God would not put him to death if he were. Neither was the illegitimate child Bathsheba bore David in an illegal disapproved marriage.
Nor were those that died in the flood, the Canaanites Perizzites etc.
The meekest man in the 14 century knew this..
(Genesis 18:25) . . . It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?”

It's repeated. God does not execute the innocent, or the righteous. He is always just.

God determined who dies - the ultimate judge, and absolute moral authority. The one deserving of that because he created the things in heaven and on earth.
What have you made, that can compare?

If you want to say there is no God, fine, but to say the creator has no right to do what you don't like... you don't have anything to validate your position.

It is my opinion that ONLY religion could allow anybody to make such a wicked argument. Humans all over the world -- even the most savage -- accept that children shall not be held criminally responsible and punished by law (let alone by death). Every nation on earth has a minimum age of criminal responsibility.

But you excuse it because it's in the Bible, and therefore there must be something we don't know -- something that would render a child guilty enough to deserve death. In the case of David's son by Bathsheba, a death that took 7 full days of suffering for that child. That's what it says in II Samuel, Chapters 11 and 12. I do not care that the child was "illegitimate" as you say, or that David's marriage to Bathsheba was "disapproved." The guilty party was David, not the child. Did not David say to Nathan: “I have sinned against the Lord,” and did not Nathan reply, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die” (II Samuel 12:13-14)?