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Answering Atheists

Nimos

Well-Known Member
It's relevant because God did create animals not to eat each other. It's in the Genesis account.
But then he changed it after the fall, why?

Yes... and... ?
So when God chooses not to do anything, I would call that evil.

Allowing someone to rape another? Okay. Play God for a moment. Tell me what you would do.
Well if I didn't want people to rape each other, I would simply remove that urge from all humans and animals.

:( Are you okay?
You are focusing on God's power yes?
Is power God's only attribute? So let's say God uses his power. How does that show he is wise and just?
No, but being all powerful is one of his attributes.

Had God used his powers to remove evil from the beginning, then we wouldn't have know about it so it would have made no difference to us. God could even remove it now and just make us forget what evil is, again it would make no difference to us.

So everything God does is wise according to his own standards, because he can do whatever he want.

Its not like God is going, "oh no that random guy on RF forum, said I was evil" what should I do. He doesn't care, he will throw me in hell if he feel like it :)

If God exist, Its not like im going to end up before him and we are going to have a long discussion about whether he is justified in throwing me to hell or not, he is probably already telling Satan to throw in a few extra pieces of wood. :)

Okay. Tell us how God "could also have made it so humans in much higher degree lived in harmony with nature, not needing to expand and subdue everything around us. Meaning he could have made human nature different than what it is."
Please don't tell me you can't because you are not omnipotent and omniscient, because you would kill off your argument one time.
He could have made everyone herbivores and made plants contain all the nutrients we need and so we had to eat less of them or that they grew 10 times as fast.

He could have solved overpopulation, so parents could only ever have two children at the same time. There are lots of way that he could have solved it.

I don't think it would be extremely difficult to come up with better ways, than having predators bite their teeth into some other animal.

Why is the 5 year old kid any different to Hitler in this case? Are you saying you know what state the 5 year old kid is in relation to the established law?
What? What does it matter, what the 5 year old's relationship to the law is? He is just a random kid that fell on the track. :)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Can I say, that no answer satisfies one who insists on having it their way. :)
Let me try one more time.

You are putting a door on with some hinges. You have a scewd3iver to send home the screws.
screwdriver-xl.png

Each turn of the screw will take milliseconds, and sending home each screw may take seconds.

Someone offers to do it for you. They bring along their tool.
visseuse10.png

He places the tool against the head of the screw, and presses the trigger. You hear VROOM, and "instantly" the screw is home. In less than a second with some milliseconds to spare, you can use our door.

Magic. No.
The process was sped up so fast, you barely saw it. It happened almost instantly.

Think of a miracle in this way. It's an action involving processes, that's beyond your ability to understand because you don't know what "tool" is being used.
You can't see what processes are involved, but the one with the ability is using knowledge, and an ability far beyond any human's, to carry out processes, at a far greater speed, and with far greater ability than you can imagine.

When the tree withered instantly, processes were taking place extremely rapidly.

If there existed a camera that could capture each frame, you would be able to sit and watch it in slow motion... but that would be impossible. ;)

Hope you got it. Otherwise, I can't help.

This is completely irrelevant though. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make any difference as far as the argument goes. I have no idea why you are mentioning this.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Well, He could have just zapped all the innocent little children into heaven instead of horrifically drowning them. ..

Some say that drowning is the most pleasant way to die. Maybe they are correct, I have not died in any way yet, so I can’t say.

...Genesis obviously has multiple authorship. ..

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Realistically, Genesis obviously has multiple authorship.
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.

Perhaps you don't, but Biblical scholars do. You might want to take the time to read this...
Texts of Genesis: J, E, and P

It's somewhat long and you probably won't bother to actually read it.

It discusses the content of Genesis:
First, each of these two sections of Genesis contains a different introduction for the creation story.​

It goes into detail about the way the different sections of Genesis are written.
The sections also differ in genre. One is written in poetry and the other is written in prose.​

It delves into the context of Genesis:
This account above from Genesis 1:1-2:3 contains elements very similar to Mesopotamian creation stories found in The Epic of Gilgamesh and other texts. It takes ideas of the firmament common in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian cosmology, but it restructures the creation so that it is the work of a single deity rather than a combined effort of several gods in conflict.
It arrives at: (My emphasis)
What do we make of these distinctions? What do they suggest about the authorship of Genesis? Biblical scholars today think they indicate that several people wrote the creation accounts, and then these accounts were anthologized together much later in the book we currently call Genesis.
And suggests:
If students are reading a study Bible like the Anchor Bible series, the editors helpfully mark which sections come from the J, E, and P Texts.​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Some say that drowning is the most pleasant way to die. Maybe they are correct, I have not died in any way yet, so I can’t say.

Yes, it is so pleasant that waterboarding has been outlawed. Having tons of mud crush you down is also pleasant, isn't it? Better than being torn to shreds by trees in a flash flood.

An omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would have zapped all the innocents into heaven - harmlessly and painlessly.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Ultimate power does not mean able to do anything, so the choice of usage is contextual.
God has ultimate power. There is nothing more powerful, nor anything that can prevent him accomplishing his wll.
However, God cannot do anything. For example, he cannot kill himself - he cannot die. Nor can he lie, but those things are not required for power.

So perhaps it is important we be clear on, and have an understanding of the correct usage of our terms.

Ultimate power also does not mean breaking laws that cannot be broken.

You contradicted yourself with the two statements in bold. The laws are more powerful than God if they prevent him from accomplishing his will.

For example, God is described in the Bible, as the beginning and the end.
How can he be anything else? Because he cannot be second or third, does that mean he is not omnipotent?
So you're saying that he was the first to lie, therefore, is the creator of evil.

Can 1 + 1 = 5, at any point in time? In our mind it can.
If in our mind it can, then going by your, our minds are more powerful than God.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But then he changed it after the fall, why?
He changed it? Why do you think he changed it? Do you think God is responsible for everything? He is not.

So when God chooses not to do anything, I would call that evil.
"God chooses not to do anything"? Have you read the Bible Nimos?
Perhaps repeat that statement to yourself, and listen carefully to it. The read the Bible. You will... at least you should realize the statement is far from the truth. God choose to do something, far greater than anything you can.

Well if I didn't want people to rape each other, I would simply remove that urge from all humans and animals.
:dizzy: So that I understand you clearly... Remove what urge? The urge to rape, or the urge for sex.

No, but being all powerful is one of his attributes.

Had God used his powers to remove evil from the beginning, then we wouldn't have know about it so it would have made no difference to us. God could even remove it now and just make us forget what evil is, again it would make no difference to us.

So everything God does is wise according to his own standards, because he can do whatever he want.

Its not like God is going, "oh no that random guy on RF forum, said I was evil" what should I do. He doesn't care, he will throw me in hell if he feel like it :)

If God exist, Its not like im going to end up before him and we are going to have a long discussion about whether he is justified in throwing me to hell or not, he is probably already telling Satan to throw in a few extra pieces of wood. :)
o_O Did you just answer the question? It doesn't appear you did.
What does God exercising his power in the way you think he should, have to do with God's wisdom and justice?
I'm curious though... how was God to use his power to remove evil from the beginning?

He could have made everyone herbivores and made plants contain all the nutrients we need and so we had to eat less of them or that they grew 10 times as fast.

He could have solved overpopulation, so parents could only ever have two children at the same time. There are lots of way that he could have solved it.

I don't think it would be extremely difficult to come up with better ways, than having predators bite their teeth into some other animal.
God made his creature herbivores. Plants contain all the nutrients we need. No need for them to grow 10 times faster. (Daniel 1:12-17)
Why would you blame God for overpopulation? Do you realize how many people have children from more than one woman; from adulterous relationships; out of wedlock... Are you aware of how many children come into this world by people who just live for sex? :eek:
As you saw from scripture, the animals were made to live together in peace. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

What? What does it matter, what the 5 year old's relationship to the law is? He is just a random kid that fell on the track. :)
Read John 3:16-21, 36.It doesn't matter where he fell. He fell.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
He changed it? Why do you think he changed it? Do you think God is responsible for everything? He is not.
well something changed the animals eating habits right? and God chose to not do anything about it, correct?

"God chooses not to do anything"? Have you read the Bible Nimos?
Perhaps repeat that statement to yourself, and listen carefully to it. The read the Bible. You will... at least you should realize the statement is far from the truth. God choose to do something, far greater than anything you can.
Yes, lets talk about that. What exactly does God do in the bible that you think is so amazing?

:dizzy: So that I understand you clearly... Remove what urge? The urge to rape, or the urge for sex.
Remove the urge to rape.

o_O Did you just answer the question? It doesn't appear you did.
What does God exercising his power in the way you think he should, have to do with God's wisdom and justice?
I'm curious though... how was God to use his power to remove evil from the beginning?
Well depending on where evil comes from, but yes pretty straight forward he could just have gotten rid of it.

God made his creature herbivores. Plants contain all the nutrients we need. No need for them to grow 10 times faster. (Daniel 1:12-17)
Why would you blame God for overpopulation? Do you realize how many people have children from more than one woman; from adulterous relationships; out of wedlock... Are you aware of how many children come into this world by people who just live for sex? :eek:
As you saw from scripture, the animals were made to live together in peace. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
Well not all overpopulation is caused by humans, animals can do it as well. What does it matter how many children there is from adulterous relationships etc. When we are talking about how God could have made it differently. He could have made it so humans bound to each other for life if that would be a good idea.

How things are now is irrelevant, when its about how they could be done differently.

Read John 3:16-21, 36.It doesn't matter where he fell. He fell.
Yes, and? the question were what good reason you would have to not help him?
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
...
An omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would have zapped all the innocents into heaven - harmlessly and painlessly.

By what the Bible tells, the people who were drowned were evil/unrighteous, why would you think they go to heaven? And, when they have rejected God, why expect God to protect them and go against their will?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
well something changed the animals eating habits right?
Yes. Survival.

and God chose to not do anything about it, correct?
"not to do anything"? What do you mean?
Do you mean God allowed that course without interfering? Yes. Man also. (Genesis 9:2-7)

Yes, lets talk about that. What exactly does God do in the bible that you think is so amazing?
There is quite a lot. Did you have something specific in mind?

Remove the urge to rape.
You want God to remove the urge to rape? While he is at it, would you be okay with him removing the urge to complain against him.? Is that fine with you?

Well depending on where evil comes from, but yes pretty straight forward he could just have gotten rid of it.
Up till now you have not been willing to offer up any suggestions on getting rid of evil. Why not?

Well not all overpopulation is caused by humans, animals can do it as well. What does it matter how many children there is from adulterous relationships etc. When we are talking about how God could have made it differently. He could have made it so humans bound to each other for life if that would be a good idea.
Made it so how? By permanent hypnotism... how? Out with it. Tell us how.

How things are now is irrelevant, when its about how they could be done differently.
Which you are drawing a blank.

Yes, and? the question were what good reason you would have to not help him?
Did you read the scripture? Then maybe you are looking for something other than help.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
An omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would have zapped all the innocents into heaven - harmlessly and painlessly.


By what the Bible tells, the people who were drowned were evil/unrighteous, why would you think they go to heaven?

So, in your mind and the mind of your God, a four year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a one year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a fetus is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God all animals are evil and unrighteous.

Yet all these creatures are the direct result of His creation.

That says a lot about you and it says a lot about your God. For one thing, he clearly is not omnibenevolent.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Ultimate power does not mean able to do anything, so the choice of usage is contextual.
God has ultimate power. There is nothing more powerful, nor anything that can prevent him accomplishing his wll.
However, God cannot do anything. For example, he cannot kill himself - he cannot die. Nor can he lie, but those things are not required for power.

So perhaps it is important we be clear on, and have an understanding of the correct usage of our terms.
I agree with you about both sides should agree and understand the definition of the words used. But there's also one other important thing that we should be clear on, and that is, don't be dishonest and change what you said just because you can't defend your position.

So how about we stick to what you said earlier in this thread.

Post #34
God can do anything he wants. He just does not act like we do. Act and then panic.

If God wants to lie, he can and will lie.

If God wants to be malicious, he can and will be malicious.

If God wants to break laws that are unbreakable by humans, he can and will break those laws.

If God wants to commit immoral acts, he can and will do those immoral acts.

And lastly, if God wants to reveal himself to weak finite humans because they ask him, he can and will reveal himself to them.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Yes. Survival.
No, more than that.

A shark is not exactly designed to eat seaweed and the like, so after the fall, God or whoever "redesign" the animals, must have change the sharks otherwise they would have died.

"not to do anything"? What do you mean?
Do you mean God allowed that course without interfering? Yes. Man also. (Genesis 9:2-7)
As above, a shark amongst many other predators are not designed to eat or live off plants, so if God originally designed them to. And they suddenly change their eating habits after the fall, that will require a change to their digesting system or they would die. Who changed the animals, if not God?

There is quite a lot. Did you have something specific in mind?
No, you said he did so many amazing things, so im fine with you choosing whichever you think is so amazing?

You want God to remove the urge to rape? While he is at it, would you be okay with him removing the urge to complain against him.? Is that fine with you?
Why would that need to change?

Up till now you have not been willing to offer up any suggestions on getting rid of evil. Why not?
Well I did just suggest that God could have removed the urge to rape. I also suggested that he could change how humans and animals survive, by simply letting them eat plants. He could also simply have made it so earthquakes etc. weren't needed.

I would consider that a start and he could go through all the stuff that is considered evil and either remove or change them.

Made it so how? By permanent hypnotism... how? Out with it. Tell us how.
Just as there are certain animals that bind for life, humans are not far off, we get married and in some cases people live happily ever after together. So he could have made it so when people are in love they give off a scent that their partner can pick up, if the love ever goes away the scent will go as well and people would know and could split with each other in peace. Again there are lots of ways to do it, that would be less problematic than how it is now.

Which you are drawing a blank.
No, its irrelevant because we are talking about how to change stuff. And if we change them these things wouldn't be there anymore, so its not important whether it used to be like that or not.

Did you read the scripture? Then maybe you are looking for something other than help.
Yes, I have read the scripture, in fact I have read the bible. I still don't see how that is relevant for the question I asked?
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
So, in your mind and the mind of your God, a four year old child is evil and unrighteous. ...

I can’t really tell did God think so. If they were righteous, I believe they are in eternal life with God and the drowning is not in my opinion then a problem for them. Also, it seems to me that all bodies die at some point. So, it is kind of pointless to take them somehow differently than all other people.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

In Biblical point of view, death of a body is not the end. And this “life” is not even meat to last forever. That is why I don’t see it a problem, if even the body of a righteous person dies.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Previously...
By what the Bible tells, the people who were drowned were evil/unrighteous, why would you think they go to heaven?
So, in your mind and the mind of your God, a four year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a one year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a fetus is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God all animals are evil and unrighteous.
I can’t really tell did God think so. If they were righteous, I believe they are in eternal life with God and the drowning is not in my opinion then a problem for them.

That is not what you said in the post I quoted above. You seem to be confused contradicting yourself.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
That is not what you said in the post I quoted above. You seem to be confused contradicting yourself.

Sorry. By what the Bible tells, the reason for drowning was:

God saw the earth, and saw that it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen. 6:12-13

By that, all were corrupted, violent and evil, (=unrighteous) and therefore drowned.

My second answer was to say, if there was righteous person who died, which I don’t know existed, he would be in eternal life with God and the drowning would not really be a problem for that person. But, because of Gen. 6:12-13, I don’t think any righteous person drowned.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.


Genesis may have multiple authors and is not considered history but a collection of re-worked legends and myths designed to give an emerging society stories of their own. The myths are taken from Mesopotamian creation myths. Scholars do not consider it anything but folktales. Exodus is now considered a foundation myth or a story told about the origins of the people to give them unity. But it's another made-up story.

"
Religion Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel

K.L. Sparks (ordained Baptist Pastor, PhD in Hebrew Bible/Ancient Near East)

As a rule, modern scholars do not believe that the Bible's account of early Israel's history provides a wholly accurate portrait of Israel's origins. One reason for this is that the earliest part of Israel's history in Genesis is now regarded as something other than a work of modern history. It's primary author was at best an ancient historian (if a historian at all), who lived long after the events he narrated, and who drew freely from all sources that were not historical (legends and theological stories); he was more concerned with theology than with the modern quest to learn "what actually happened" (Van Seters 1992; Sparks 2002, pp 37-71; Maidman 2003).

As a result, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are better understood as windows into Israelite history than as portraits of Israel's early history. Almost as problematic as an historical source is the book of Exodus. This book tells the story of Israel's long enslavement in Egypt and of it's eventual emancipation; it also narrates the first stages of Israel's migration from Egypt toward Palestine. The trouble with this story, historically speaking, is that the Egyptians seem to have known nothing of these great events in which thousands of Israelite slaves were released from Egypt because of a series of natural (or supernatural( catastrophes - supposedly including the death of every firstborn Egyptian man and beast.
Religion, Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel
 

ecco

Veteran Member
By that, all were corrupted, violent and evil, (=unrighteous) and therefore drowned.

My second answer was to say, if there was righteous person who died, which I don’t know existed,

We seem to be going in circles. Pick a position and stick to it.
As I stated earlier,
So, in your mind and the mind of your God, a four year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a one year old child is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God, a fetus is evil and unrighteous. In your mind and the mind of your God all animals are evil and unrighteous.
Please explain how a one-year-old child or a fetus can be corrupted.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No, more than that.
More than survival?

A shark is not exactly designed to eat seaweed and the like, so after the fall, God or whoever "redesign" the animals, must have change the sharks otherwise they would have died.
What evidence is there against a shark being designed to eat seaweeds? Moreover, what evidence is there that a shark is not a species quite similar to its kind, but quite different in its characteristics?

According to your people adapting different traits and abilities is not unheard of.
Study reveals lactose tolerance happened quickly in Europe
The ability for humans to digest milk as adults has altered our dietary habits and societies for centuries. But when and how that ability -- known as lactase persistence or lactose tolerance -- occurred and became established is up for debate. By testing the genetic material from the bones of people who died during a Bronze Age battle around 1,200 BC, an international team of scientists including Krishna Veeramah, PhD, of Stony Brook University, suggest that lactase persistence spread throughout Central Europe in only a few thousand years, an extremely fast transformation compared to most evolutionary changes seen in humans. Their findings are published in Current Biology.

Why then would God need to intervene, when he designed everything with the mechanism for change? Even rock changes.

As above, a shark amongst many other predators are not designed to eat or live off plants, so if God originally designed them to. And they suddenly change their eating habits after the fall, that will require a change to their digesting system or they would die. Who changed the animals, if not God?
Covered above, I think.

No, you said he did so many amazing things, so im fine with you choosing whichever you think is so amazing?
Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 40:26; Psalm 139:14 ...

Why would that need to change?
Well if you want God to take away people's urge to do wrong, why is rebellion against God to be excluded?

Well I did just suggest that God could have removed the urge to rape. I also suggested that he could change how humans and animals survive, by simply letting them eat plants. He could also simply have made it so earthquakes etc. weren't needed.
So 1) stop humans from being independent thinkers, or developing their own character, or person. 2) remove the essential elements necessary for protecting and sustaining life on earth.
Do you know how volcanoes, lightning bolts and the movement of magma in the earth's crust, contribute to life on earth? These are all essential elements. The earth has a protective "shield" and atmosphere, necessary for survival.
If it were different, you and I would not be here. In fact, those looking on at what God did, would have reason to complain about what God did.

You can't blame God for earthquakes and hurricanes either, when in reality, man has contributed to the increase, and severity of natural elements.
This coming from your people, again.

Global warming is making some extreme weather events worse.
As Earth’s climate has warmed, a new pattern of more frequent and more intense weather events has unfolded around the world. Scientists identify these extreme weather events based on the historical record of weather in a particular region. They consider extreme weather events to be those that produce unusually high or low levels of rain or snow, temperature, wind, or other effects. Typically, these events are considered extreme if they are unlike 90% or 95% of similar weather events that happened before in that same area.

Global warming can contribute to the intensity of heat waves by increasing the chances of very hot days and nights. Warming air also boosts evaporation, which can worsen drought. More drought creates dry fields and forests that are prone to catching fire, and increasing temperatures mean a longer wildfire season. Global warming also increases water vapor in the atmosphere, which can lead to more frequent heavy rain and snowstorms.

A warmer and more moist atmosphere over the oceans makes it likely that the strongest hurricanes will be more intense, produce more rainfall, and possibly be larger. In addition, global warming causes sea level to rise, which increases the amount of seawater, along with more rainfall, that is pushed on to shore during coastal storms. That seawater, along with more rainfall, can result in destructive flooding. While global warming is likely making hurricanes more intense, scientists don’t know yet if global warming is increasing the number of hurricanes each year. The effect of global warming on the frequency, intensity, size, and speed of hurricanes remains a subject of scientific research.


How Do Humans Affect the Environment?
Human activity has had an effect on the environment for thousands of years, from the time of our very earliest ancestors. Since Homo sapiens first walked the earth, we have been modifying the environment around us through agriculture, travel and eventually through urbanization and commercial networks. At this point in earth’s physical history, our impact on the environment is so substantial that scientists believe “pristine nature,” or ecosystems untouched by human intervention, no longer exist.1

In ways both positive and negative - and likely in more ways than you’d even think - human civilization and technology have affected our earth, altering our planet forever.
Consider these five tangible impacts our species has had on the environment, and whether you’re one who will advance their effects or intercede to halt them.

These impacts are expected to intensify in the coming decades.

Human activity can trigger earthquakes, but how many? This number might surprise you

How Humans Are Causing Deadly Earthquakes
Mining, dam building, and fracking are among the causes.


Unlike man, God can control the weather, and he can teach man to properly manage, and keep the right balance in earth's systems.

I would consider that a start and he could go through all the stuff that is considered evil and either remove or change them.
Question : If there is an almighty creator, would he not know better than you, what to do?
So would your suggestions not amount to a futile exercise?
You could just say, you think God does not exist, because you think things would be different if he did.
, fullstop.
That argument is baseless however, because what you think, is not true, just because you think it, and there are always more than one reason for something being the way it is. Often, we have little or no facts, and make judgments with that limited knowledge/

Just as there are certain animals that bind for life, humans are not far off, we get married and in some cases people live happily ever after together. So he could have made it so when people are in love they give off a scent that their partner can pick up, if the love ever goes away the scent will go as well and people would know and could split with each other in peace. Again there are lots of ways to do it, that would be less problematic than how it is now.
t1818.gif
He could have made oranges to taste like bush too. In fact he could have made everything to taste like bush.
God made humans with free will - the freedom to choose. There is nothing wrong with that. Perhaps only 10% of humanity would think that's a problem. :(

No, its irrelevant because we are talking about how to change stuff. And if we change them these things wouldn't be there anymore, so its not important whether it used to be like that or not.
What things would not be there? We were talking about evil, right?
The solution to evil does not lie in removing man's heart. How about training the heart. What if man developed the heart that does not include evil. How about that?

Yes, I have read the scripture, in fact I have read the bible. I still don't see how that is relevant for the question I asked?
According to the scripture, God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
Why, might they be destroyed? Since you say you read the Bible, then you can answer that question.
 
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