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Answering Atheists

Yazata

Active Member
I still think that the most perfect universe would almost necessarily have to include imperfections.

Otherwise most of the human virtues like courage, discovery, fortitude, strength, compassion and love would become kind of meaningless.

So one might want to argue that God intentionally, knowingly and lovingly created evils because the best and most perfect reality would have to include them, so that the inhabitants of that reality have space to grow and become as perfect as they can be.

"Evil" might not be an entirely bad thing if it tempers us and makes us better than we could be in its absence.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
If you don't believe in evil, then the Epicurean Paradox doesn't really apply to your beliefs. It's mostly in relation to claims by people saying that god is both maximally powerful and good but still allows evil to exist.

This paradox is a straw-man. That, you should know. But, he is opposing the first philosophy, thus it is addressing a different proposition which cannot be applied to a being where the proposition and the argument are both made by the same person.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes, I've often seen atheists trying to exploit that 'argument from evil' or some variant on it.
Thank you for that. At least that clarifies it's not just a few persons that hear this from Atheists.
The title is appropriate then. :)

Well, premise 1 seems wrong to me. It's based on the traditional theistic attributes along with the assertion that if God exists then God must possess these attributes. I'd question how anyone (especially an atheist) supposedly knows that about a putative transcendent being.

So the argument would work a lot better if 1. was replaced by something like

1. A traditional set of theistic attributes attribute omnipotence, omniscience, and moral perfection to God.

Which would require changing 7. to

7. Therefore, this particular set of traditional theistic attributes isn't consistent.
Very nice.

I still don't think that the argument succeeds even if we make that move, but it's stronger.

My primary objection would probably be to premise 4. If 'evil' is read to mean 'imperfection', then a pretty strong argument can be made that imperfection is necessary in order for life to be most perfect (or perfected).

What I mean by that rather paradoxical statement is this:

If a person never knows fear, he or she could never know courage.

If people never knew suffering, people would never know compassion.

If people never knew ignorance, they would never know learning or discovery.

If people never knew difficulty, they would never know strength.

If people never knew loneliness, they would never truly value love.

If everything was already perfect, people could never grow.

And on and on, most of our most valued virtues only make sense in conditions of imperfection.

So one might argue that a truly good and truly loving God might intentionally throw eternal souls out of heavenly bliss into human avatars in a sort of transitory video game environment so that they might fully develop as persons, so that they might come to know what the human virtues mean.
I think your argument would be better if you didn't use the word "imperfection", since that can mean different things.
For example, perfection does not mean invincible, or infallible. So to one who understands the term different to what you have in mind, that could cause... a bit of confusion.

However, taking your argument, from the perspective you are presenting...
It's not unreasonable.
The scripture I quoted in Romans 8, actually helps us to visualize things in that way.
There, Paul said... "For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us."

In other words, what we suffer now, is temperary, and the reverse of it will be both permanent and as one writter described it, "exquisite delight in the abundance of peace".
It would be like going through an operation, to give you a whole new pair of legs, or remove cancer, or hernia.
The temperary pain may be hard to bear, but the way you feel after, words cannot express. You are grateful. :)

I like how James puts it. James 1:4 . . .let endurance complete its work, so that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.

We could liken the situation to one where, a reckless individual creates a tragedy, and one has to take time to repair the damage.
Thing take time, and we have to endure, but we do not complain, when persons are doing something to fix the problem.

God is not sitting twiddling his thumbs, as some may suggest. ;) He is actively involved in his desire, as expressed in the Bible... “‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I still think that the most perfect universe would almost necessarily have to include imperfections.

Otherwise most of the human virtues like courage, discovery, fortitude, strength, compassion and love would become kind of meaningless.
They're only virtuous at all because of the needs that come out of living in a imperfect universe.

So one might want to argue that God intentionally and knowingly created evils because the best and most perfect reality would have to include them, so that reality's inhabitants can grow and become as perfect as they can be.
Are you arguing that? Are you saying "that God intentionally and knowingly created evil"?

And it sounds like you're arguing for something like Leibniz's "best of all possible worlds" response to the PoE, which strikes me as strange.

If this world is as good as it can possibly be, then any act we might do could only make it worse.

In that case, wouldn't virtues like courage and fortitude be meaningless? A minute ago, you said that it would be a problem if they were.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
This paradox is a straw-man. That, you should know. But, he is opposing the first philosophy, thus it is addressing a different proposition which cannot be applied to a being where the proposition and the argument are both made by the same person.

What? I'm struggling to understand what it is you're saying. Could you run that by me again and unpack that more?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-
  1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  5. Evil exists.
  6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it? :shrug:
Do aborted embryos's souls go to Heaven? If yes, then in order to have a permanent lasting freedom it is not necessary to suffer, since we know that human fertilised eggs do not have a nervous system.

Therefore, your defence does not obtain.

Ciao

- viole
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
When you say you "don't believe in evil", I am assuming you don't mean you don't think there is evil, or am I wrong?
Perhaps you think that everything is good? I don't know... I am asking. :shrug:

There is only grey, in my view. It's not black and white. I don't live or think in the good/bad Abrahamic model. There is that which takes one away from God, and that which takes one closer to God.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You don't need to.

The Problem of Evil works just fine if you approach it with these two starting premises:

- God has a will and can exert it.
- things exist that are not aligned with God's will.
I believe the first one, sort of, but definitely don't believe the second one. I'm a monist.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-
  1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  5. Evil exists.
  6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it? :shrug:

Well, you may think it is not sound (perhaps not convincing), but many theologians say this is the best argument argument against classical theism, and indeed, theologians and apologists made up a new field to study theodicies (basically, to make excuses that explain evil), and the literature (of back and forth arguments) is huge and complex.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well, you may think it is not sound (perhaps not convincing), but many theologians say this is the best argument argument against theism, and indeed, theologians and apologists made up a new field to study theodicies (basically, to make excuses that explain evil), and the literature (of back and forth arguments) is huge and complex.
Considering the vast number of god-concepts to which the Problem of Evil doesn't apply, I'm not sure how it could ever be "the best argument against theism."
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
Considering the vast number of god-concepts to which the Problem of Evil doesn't apply, I'm not sure how it could ever be "the best argument against theism."

Sure, I thought it was more than obvious I was talking about classical theism. I'm of course aware of the minority of believers who aren't adepts of the Abrahamic religions (which may accept different definitions of gods).
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
This can be seen as an argument about Judaism. I think its stretching to insist its an argument about planet Earth or about atheism or about all people. The creation is formed in a place that is chaotic, not out of nothing but out of previously existing elements. I suppose that is Israel created out of the nations. So then Paul is likely continuing his argument from chapter seven and answering objections about how Judaism could have failed.
This would take another thread, to consider with you, because I would ask you to explain the whole of chapter 8, with your suggested view, and see how it works out. :D
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Epicurus was addressing a model, which is not relevant to theology in general. It is a particular model he was opposing. Thus, it does not apply for God itself.

True! His model does nothing to address the concept if god at all, but it does call into question of what a god's nature and character might be.

I would agree that it's just a straw man if someone wants to be an edgy atheist and copy paste it in a religious forum to "own the religious noobz," but it can be an interesting tool to go through with someone to find out what their actual beliefs are, IMO. :)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No, it is not. There is no the Atheists' argument. Atheism is the lack of belief/disbelief in gods. That is all.
***mod edit***

But to the OP: an atheist would not assert any of those positions because they do not believe that God/gods exist at all.

So when they do assert some of these claims, they are doing so as reiterated claims made to them, by theists.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Suppose this was in person and someone was trying to persuade me about God and I was still Hindu. I might have considered Brahman God. Or maybe even Shiva. Well as soon as they start outlining their points, I'll be correcting them and saying things like "I don't believe in evil", then they won't know what to say, because I don't.

So you don't believe rape or murder or anything else like that is evil? hmmm
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
***mod edit***

But to the OP: an atheist would not assert any of those positions because they do not believe that God/gods exist at all.

So when they do assert some of these claims, they are doing so as reiterated claims made to them, by theists.

Yes, as an atheist it is a feeling in me. I was never brought up really religious and learned to live without the belief in God, so when I tried to become a theist, it didn't feel right and I didn't need the feeling of believing in God.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Sure, I thought it was more than obvious I was talking about classical theism. I'm of course aware of the minority of believers who aren't adepts of the Abrahamic religions (which may accept different definitions of gods).

How does "abrahamic religions" differ from "classical theism" if I may ask? If I have misunderstood you I'm sorry in advance. I would like to know what you mean by that.
 
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