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Answering Questions

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why do you keep parroting yourselves, as though you are trying really hard to convince yourselves?


Yes. I am actually. I am doing so... again, for the benefit of those who keep
R.245d407a5e227742fbd5e92c0a768f49

...and repeatedly parroting themselves... "I haven't seen any evidence. You haven't given any evidence."
And yet, you still haven't produced this evidence that you claim you have.
A less patient person might assume you had no such evidence and were merely attempting to bore us into submission.

However, I will keep asking until you produce it.
So, for the nth time, what is this evidence you have for a divine creator?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So, for the nth time, what is this evidence you have for a divine creator?
Why do you keep asking? It is because Baha'u'llah proved he was God's messenger by his life and character and the truth in his writings. And he says there is a God.

Oops, wrong thread and wrong religion. The Bible says there is a God and everything in the Bible has proven itself to be true.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hmm. You do realise that 600BC is in the 6th century BC?
The last year of it. The very next year — 601BC — is considered 7th Cent. BC. And that was just for the copy!

Besides, you stated “all the evidence suggests a date around 5th-6th C BC.” That is wrong.
So you are basically admitting that the oldest extant text that bears similarity to the OT is from the 6th century BC.

Bears similarity”? It’s word for word.





Remember that you are claiming it is 1000 years older than that.

This is really the only valid point here.

What "original writings"? Why do you claim the scrolls must be a copy of much earlier texts? How do you know they are not the first attempt at recording the ideas they contain?

Never heard that excuse before. You are stretching.

Important point to bear in mind here. Anecdotal tales are not regarded as "evidence" by rational people, especially if they are making extraordinary claims.

It depends on the person relating the experience…. For an extraordinary statement coming from an anonymous source — like you or I sitting behind a computer screen — or one who is a known substance abuser — No way.

But for highly respected people to even admit to such “extraordinary claims” — claims that could seriously damage that respect — their claims carry more weight.

Throughout the centuries, there have been too many, to arbitrarily discount.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The Bible says there is a God and everything in the Bible has proven itself to be true.
What'sthisnow?:confused:

  • the first day - light was created
  • the second day - the sky was created
  • the third day - dry land, seas, plants and trees were created
  • the fourth day - the Sun, Moon and stars were created
  • the fifth day - creatures that live in the sea and creatures that fly were created
  • the sixth day - animals that live on the land and finally humans, made in the image of God were created
  • by day seven, God finished his work of creation and rested, making the seventh day a special holy day
You think that has "proven itself to be true"? By the time we get to day 3 a small child with a half decent education should be rolling its eyes and have a question or two.

Oh and why would a deity with literally limitless power, need to rest? :rolleyes:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Ok, sorry for the repeating questions (I don't want to make wrong assumptions), but you answer for question 1 is definitely yes.
And I assume your answer for question 2 is also yes since you don't see a real distincition between the two.

Well, since science can never be absolute certain of anything, this means science for you is not valuable as a method for (reliable) knowledge. In other words: according to you it is not reasonable to accept scientific knowledge/facts/theories.
Therefore it can not be used to justify or verify claims in the Bible.

Next question is: how do you confirm anything with absolute certainty?


You earlier stated the following: "No. I accept the knowledge that there is a creator, even though I do not have absolute proof of that knowledge."
It seems that you are not absolute certain (there is no absolute proof), so why are you accepting this 'knowledge'?
Wouldn't it be consistent to not believe in a creator?
This is what I meant with a different standard. You want absolute certainty when it comes to science, but when it comes to a believe in a creator you don't require the same standard.
I'm curious why that is.
If you make wrong assumptions, your follow up questions will be based on those wrong assumptions, and therefore be irrelevant.
Listening is an art. It also involves removing our biases, and accepting the answer given.
You did neither.

Have I misrepresented you? Then please do not misrepresent me... Otherwise, I might have to conclude that you have a twisted agenda.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The last year of it. The very next year — 601BC — is considered 7th Cent. BC.
So you admit I was correct when I said it was 6th C BC.
The latest study of the scrolls produced a date of "immediately prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586/7 BCE. According to a leading expert, the study should "settle any controversy over [the date of] these inscriptions".

And that was just for the copy!
You said this before, but you have still to explain how we know the scroll is a copy and not the original.

Besides, you stated “all the evidence suggests a date around 5th-6th C BC.” That is wrong.
In which case you will be able to present evidence that shows it was written earlier.

Bears similarity”? It’s word for word.
No it isn't. The text is incomplete so no such assertion can be made. It is described as having "Biblical parallels".

This is really the only valid point here.
Indeed. And one you have still failed to demonstrate.

Never heard that excuse before. You are stretching.
I asked you how you know it is a copy and not an original, given that it is the oldest known text of its kind.
I see you can't provide an answer. Interesting...

It depends on the person relating the experience….
No it doesn't. It depends on the claim and the evidence to support it.

For an extraordinary statement coming from an anonymous source — like you or I sitting behind a computer screen — or one who is a known substance abuser — No way.
But for highly respected people to even admit to such “extraordinary claims” — claims that could seriously damage that respect — their claims carry more weight.
Throughout the centuries, there have been too many, to arbitrarily discount.
Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
It is irrelevant how many people claim to have seen ghosts. There has never been any evidence to support those claims and every attempt to demonstrate them has failed.
Sometimes, if you can't find what you are looking for, it's because it isn't there.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What'sthisnow?:confused:

  • the first day - light was created
  • the second day - the sky was created
  • the third day - dry land, seas, plants and trees were created
  • the fourth day - the Sun, Moon and stars were created
  • the fifth day - creatures that live in the sea and creatures that fly were created
  • the sixth day - animals that live on the land and finally humans, made in the image of God were created
  • by day seven, God finished his work of creation and rested, making the seventh day a special holy day
You think that has "proven itself to be true"? By the time we get to day 3 a small child with a half decent education should be rolling its eyes and have a question or two.

Oh and why would a deity with literally limitless power, need to rest? :rolleyes:
You take me too literally. That was a joke. It is the same argument, just a different religion. Both Baha'is and Christians can't prove anything. All they can do is have faith and believe. Of course, we all know that the Sun did stop in the sky for a day... don't we? No, I'm fine with it all be myth. But people seem to need their myths to give meaning to their lives.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You take me too literally. That was a joke. It is the same argument, just a different religion. Both Baha'is and Christians can't prove anything. All they can do is have faith and believe. Of course, we all know that the Sun did stop in the sky for a day... don't we? No, I'm fine with it all be myth. But people seem to need their myths to give meaning to their lives.
I guess some people don't know you well enough. Maybe if you said you were Atheist, that would help them see you are on their side.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You take me too literally. That was a joke. It is the same argument, just a different religion. Both Baha'is and Christians can't prove anything. All they can do is have faith and believe. Of course, we all know that the Sun did stop in the sky for a day... don't we? No, I'm fine with it all be myth. But people seem to need their myths to give meaning to their lives.
Ah ok, my apologies, I misunderstood.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So you admit I was correct when I said it was 6th C BC.
No, you were wrong. And I debunked it, as anyone looking at our dialogue history can see.
You said this before, but you have still to explain how we know the scroll is a copy and not the original.

I’m citing the experts. You disagree with them, eh?
It’s not “the original”....
It’s too short. Lol.

When someone can’t acknowledge their own error, debate is futile.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, you were wrong. And I debunked it, as anyone looking at our dialogue history can see.
Are you high?
The scrolls have been dated around 575BC. I provided references for that. This is, unequivocally, the 6th century BC.
You assert they are much older but have provided no evidence for that claim.

I’m citing the experts. You disagree with them, eh?
What "experts"? That is what I am asking for. The evidence! :rolleyes:
It's no good just making a claim. You have to support it (as I have done) or it can be dismissed.

It’s not “the original”....
It’s too short. Lol.
Don't understand.

When someone can’t acknowledge their own error, debate is futile.
Careful with that irony, it can burn.
 

AppieB

Active Member
If you make wrong assumptions, your follow up questions will be based on those wrong assumptions, and therefore be irrelevant.
Listening is an art. It also involves removing our biases, and accepting the answer given.
You did neither.

Have I misrepresented you? Then please do not misrepresent me... Otherwise, I might have to conclude that you have a twisted agenda.
I’m sorry, making wrong assumptions is the last thing I want. Hence the many (repeating) questions.
It would be helpfull if you would point out where I made a mistake.

About question 1. It seemed to me that your answer was yes. You stated earlier: "It's either verified, or it's not. There is no such thing as 99% verified". In another post you answered: "If you believe that science does not verify anything 100%, then I fail to see the point of your questions, because I have already said that it is reasonable to accept what science can verify."
I asked a few times the following question: Do you hold the believe that science is only valuable or reasonable to accept when there is "no doubt" and 100% certainty? I got some ambiguous answers which I assumed leads to the answer yes. Now I’m not so certain. So can you please answer the question with yes or no? And if you want to elaborate, please do.

Is my assumption on question 2 wrong? I personally would consider them the same. As I thought you did. Please calrify if I’m wrong.

Do you understand that science cannot be absolutely certain of anything? I’ve pointed this out several times, but I’m not quite sure if you get this.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
And yet, you still haven't produced this evidence that you claim you have.
A less patient person might assume you had no such evidence and were merely attempting to bore us into submission.

However, I will keep asking until you produce it.
So, for the nth time, what is this evidence you have for a divine creator?
In that case, since you are so impatiently demanding. Here you go. Romans 1:18-20
Go your way merrily, and have a nice day.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
In that case, since you are so impatiently demanding. Here you go. Romans 1:18-20
Go your way merrily, and have a nice day.


"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

I don't see any objective evidence there for any deity? Just some subjective claims and platitudes.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I’m sorry, making wrong assumptions is the last thing I want. Hence the many (repeating) questions.
It would be helpfull if you would point out where I made a mistake.

About question 1. It seemed to me that your answer was yes. You stated earlier: "It's either verified, or it's not. There is no such thing as 99% verified". In another post you answered: "If you believe that science does not verify anything 100%, then I fail to see the point of your questions, because I have already said that it is reasonable to accept what science can verify."
I asked a few times the following question: Do you hold the believe that science is only valuable or reasonable to accept when there is "no doubt" and 100% certainty? I got some ambiguous answers which I assumed leads to the answer yes. Now I’m not so certain. So can you please answer the question with yes or no? And if you want to elaborate, please do.

Is my assumption on question 2 wrong? I personally would consider them the same. As I thought you did. Please calrify if I’m wrong.

Do you understand that science cannot be absolutely certain of anything? I’ve pointed this out several times, but I’m not quite sure if you get this.
Let's go way back - back into time.
Let's see who is being vague.
weary-face_1f629.png


First, you were about the consensus.
Agenda #1. Is it reasonable to accept an explanation/model when there is a scientific consensus?

Did I answer that question. YES, but it didn't fit your agenda.
Science is not about consensus. It's about the experimental inquiry that produces verifiable data.
So the answer to your question is no.
If the results of the experiment can be verified, then it's reasonable to accept these.

There are some things we can believe reasonably, even though we cannot be sure, but we can reasonably feel sure.
I wish I knew what you don't understand about believing.

You kept pressing your agenda.
If those scientist/experts agree about a specific explanation, wouldn't it be reasonable to accept this as the best explantion currently available?

Yet you say this...
Actually I agree. Also science is not 100% sure (or absolute sure), nor is any other method. But we could be reasonably sure

Look at the two of these.
I said:
There are some things we can believe reasonably, even though we cannot be sure, but we can reasonably feel sure.
You said:
Actually I agree. Also science is not 100% sure (or absolute sure), nor is any other method. But we could be reasonably sure

Before I continue, tell me what's the difference between the two.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

I don't see any objective evidence there for any deity? Just some subjective claims and platitudes.
How do we objectively determine those who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
In that case, since you are so impatiently demanding. Here you go. Romans 1:18-20
Go your way merrily, and have a nice day.
Sorry, but you posted the wrong link.
That was just a verse from the Bible.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sorry, but you posted the wrong link.
That was just a verse from the Bible.
No. It was an answer to your question. You didn't want to wait for the details remember? Your impatient demands were met. Don't waste my time with complaints. See yah.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
No. It was an answer to your question. You didn't want to wait for the details remember? Your impatient demands were met. Don't waste my time with complaints. See yah.

What you posted wasn't evidence for a deity, just a string of platitudes and claims from the bible. Also this is a debate forum, so I will complain when someone offers vapid BS, ad pretends they've offered credible argument or objective evidence, whenever I am minded to, as will others I imagine. That was a pretty good teenage girl impression though, if that's the tone you were aiming for.
 
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