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Anti-theist? Why?

Nobody

Member
I've often seen it asked of atheists and anti-theists why they care about religions they consider nonsense. It's a fair question, what difference does it make to me what the religious believe? Why not mind my own business? I’d like to know why others hold a similar position, or an opposite one for that matter. I have many reasons I could give for being anti-theist, far too many, but this post will be too long anyway (apologies). Here is the main one.

Extremism.

The majority of religious people are good people who value empathy and compassion and are capable of showing it to those not in their faith. this feels like stating the obvious but I feel I need to explicitly state it when talking about extremism...

The problem is that all religions have some ethically bankrupt teachings, which even if happily ignored by the vast majority of the faithful, still remain as part of the religion (generally in scripture). The inconsistencies between the texts and the actions/beliefs of the faithful seems to be resolved by what I consider to be quite creative and entertaining reasoning as to why something stated in texts does not actually mean what it says, or there is always flat out denial. Naturally these hot-spots are always based on what is socially/culturally acceptable at the time.

Now this is pretty harmless right? Maybe a bit kooky but the logical hurdles they jump to reconcile reality and religion are somewhat impressive. If that was all there was to it I wouldn't remotely care about the beliefs of the religious, I'd say it's none of my business.
This was more or less my view on religion when I was young and the only extremism I was aware of was mostly confined to Northern Ireland, two sects of Christianity killing each other, while deeply tragic it was none of my business. Then 9/11 happened, and I realised that actually it was everybody’s business.

Unfortunately there are and always will be some people that are, for want of a better term, complete pricks. Those extremists who identify with a particular religion can find justification for their prickery via the worst their 'holy' texts have to offer, because the texts either explicitly do justify it or are so vague they could mean whatever you want them to mean. And the fact that they identify with a larger group only serves to reinforce their beliefs, this allows them to feel vindicated in their personal beliefs and do abhorrent things with a clear conscience, even though those actions may conflict with the views of the majority of the group.

It's a case of a minority spoiling it for the rest of them, but that's just how it goes.

The unalterable word of god syndrome just exacerbates matters. The problem of extremism could be vastly reduced in the long term if instead of making up half baked excuses for the worst parts of their faith, or just flat out denying that those parts even exist, they could be edited out by progressives within the religion. Realistically this seems very unlikely since the texts are considered sacred, untouchable, in some cases even the supposed word of a god. As things are now, scripture is imbued with divine properties which once again only helps the extremists convince themselves that their views are not only correct, but divinely inspired.

Religion, and all the people who practice it unwillingly and unknowingly enable extremism, without a large group to identify with extremists would have no base to derive so much certainty and justification for their beliefs/actions. If the Aztec religion was still around today most would not practice human sacrifice, however I'm damn sure you would get the occasional nutcase who is absolutely certain it is an important part of their cultural and religious heritage.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Why concern ourselves with religious beliefs?
There's an old saying in Revoltingistan.....
"Keep your enemies close. Keep the fundies closer.)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not all extremists cause problems.
It depends upon whether they interfere with the rights of others.
I'm a fan of extremists like Amish, libertarians & X-Games.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Not all extremists cause problems.
It depends upon whether they interfere with the rights of others.
I'm a fan of extremists like Amish, libertarians & X-Games.
Just underscores how ridiculous it is to condemn "the religious" because of their existence.

Hell, by some fellow rfer's assessment, I'm an extremist myself. "You're just the nice extremists."
 

Nobody

Member
Extremists suck no matter what their variety. Why pick on the religious?

Firstly sheer weight of numbers, the amount of extremists that derive their ideology from religion dwarfs all other kinds of extremism combined.
Secondly views based on fait can inspire a fervour and fanaticism far more intense than anything else.
For instance I consider myself an extreme anti-theist, while I would like it if religion ceased to be, I acknowledge that is unrealistic and see secularism as a pretty good compromise. And I would never consider physically harming someone for merely disagreeing with me.
 

Nobody

Member
Not all extremists cause problems.
It depends upon whether they interfere with the rights of others.
I'm a fan of extremists like Amish, libertarians & X-Games.

I can honestly say I have never thought of the Amish as extremists, that made me smile though.

You are right in what you have said, my own, apparently warped definition of extremism took those qualifiers as a given.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Firstly sheer weight of numbers, the amount of extremists that derive their ideology from religion dwarfs all other kinds of extremism combined.
Gee, could that possibly be because the vast majority of PEOPLE are religious?

I mean, "the religious" can't even agree on whether there's a God, why should I be held responsible for someone on the other side of the world blowing up a bus?

Secondly views based on fait can inspire a fervour and fanaticism far more intense than anything else.
I disagree completely, but you're quite welcome to back up your claim.

For instance I consider myself an extreme anti-theist, while I would like it if religion ceased to be, I acknowledge that is unrealistic and see secularism as a pretty good compromise. And I would never consider physically harming someone for merely disagreeing with me.
What about that is extreme?
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Good OP. To a degree Im an anti-theist myself. But Im particular about what ideas I oppose on a regular basis. Hell. The magical garden story. The rejection of others. Fortunately we seem to have just recently clawed our way out of witch burnings. Crusades. Terrorism. Extremism of one kind or another. Opposition to condom use in aids-ridden countries. Charlatans. The attempt by some religious folks to prevent science from being taught. The general pattern of religions to oppose the progress of science at every step.

"Throughout the last 400 years, during which the growth of science has gradually shown men how to acquire knowledge of the ways of nature and mastery over natural forces, the clergy have fought a losing battle against science, in astronomy and geology, in anatomy and physiology, in biology and psychology and sociology. Ousted from one position, they have taken up another. After being worsted in astronomy, they did their best to prevent the rise of geology; they fought against Darwinism in biology, and at present they fight against scientific theories of psychology and education. At each stage, they try to make the public forget their previous obscurantism, in order that their present obscurantism may not be recognized for what it is." - Bertrand Russell, I think

And so it continues. The religious are constantly fighting against science and truth. Just recently I saw some state pass a bill that allows creationism to be taught in schools. :facepalm:

Come to think of it, my opposition to religion is on a very broad range of issues. Overall, religion has done terrible damage to humanity, and especially to humanity's progress. Were now in a time when many people are putting up a strong fight against the religious, and all our efforts are paying off big time. People are rejecting bankrupt religious ideas all over Europe and increasingly so in N. America.

Having said all that, Im certain there is a place for religion in Humanity that will be beneficial for society. There are a lot of good ideas out there.
 

Nobody

Member
Gee, could that possibly be because the vast majority of PEOPLE are religious?

By non religious extremists could you give me an example? I mean atrocities are commited on a daily basis in the name of one god or onother, it seems very disproportionate even if the majority of the population are religious. When was the last time a bomb went off (or anything else) because of an ideology not associated with religion.

I mean, "the religious" can't even agree on whether there's a God, why should I be held responsible for someone on the other side of the world blowing up a bus?

As I said in the OP, those that identify with a religion and are also violent extremists have their beliefs justifed, only to themselves of course, because the larger, more moderate beleivers provide a foundation of belief in whatever god they share. Without a large group to identify with they would not recieve constant reinforcment that their holy book, and by proxy their personal views could not possibly be wrong.

I disagree completely, but you're quite welcome to back up your claim.

What could possibly incite more passion than the belief in an all powerful being who loves you, and will quite literally make your life hell if you irritate him? I can understand how intoxicating that kind of faith must be.

What about that is extreme?

The part about desiring the eradication of all faith based ideologies.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
By non religious extremists could you give me an example? I mean atrocities are commited on a daily basis in the name of one god or onother, it seems very disproportionate even if the majority of the population are religious. When was the last time a bomb went off (or anything else) because of an ideology not associated with religion.
The Tea Party, America's founders, Hitler, Mao....

At any rate, I don't think religion has much to do with it. It serves as a handy oration, not much else.

As I said in the OP, those that identify with a religion and are also violent extremists have their beliefs justifed, only to themselves of course, because the larger, more moderate beleivers provide a foundation of belief in whatever god they share. Without a large group to identify with they would not recieve constant reinforcment that their holy book, and by proxy their personal views could not possibly be wrong.
I disagree again. We're simply not that unified.

What could possibly incite more passion than the belief in an all powerful being who loves you, and will quite literally make your life hell if you irritate him? I can understand how intoxicating that kind of faith must be.
That's 2 religions out of thousands. Admittedly, they're currently the 2 most popular, but eternal damnation is an aberrant theology.

And anyway, that's a very feeble support. Look around. Joe America cares WAY more about football than God.


The part about desiring the eradication of all faith based ideologies.
Hey, we'd all like it if everyone saw things our way. Takes a bit more than that to make an extremist in my book.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
The thing about extreme is that it is, and we are.

The thing about strangeness is, if you think about how strange everything is for about five seconds, it becomes pretty strange.

Xeper
 

Nobody

Member
The Tea Party, America's founders, Hitler, Mao....

The Tea Party seem pretty religious to me, but admiteddley I associate conservative right wing as religious so I'm clearly biased. The founders, yes I suppose in their day they were extreme, but they were not fighting for a particular religions dominance. Hitler did believe in a god, I think that is safe to say. And Mau, I'll give you that one, while not a seclularist the opposition to religion in public life is close enough to me.

At any rate, I don't think religion has much to do with it. It serves as a handy oration, not much else.

Quite, they all had their own ideologies, religion was merely a useful tool. But a very useful tool it was for them.

I disagree again. We're simply not that unified.

Unity isn't the issue, for example the large number of people who identify as Muslim give a sense of legitimacy to the Qu'ran which bolsters any Muslim ideology, no matter how different to each other. It is that false sense of worth that enable the extreme minority to be so certain of their faith.

That's 2 religions out of thousands. Admittedly, they're currently the 2 most popular, but eternal damnation is an aberrant theology.

I must confess my main problem is with the Abrahamic religions because they are the most harmful, but I see all religions as uneccasarry at best.

And anyway, that's a very feeble support. Look around. Joe America cares WAY more about football than God.

Of course they care more about football, the average Christian could not take their religion as seriously as extremists do or they would be members of Westboro Baptists lol.
But seriously, how often do people get deliberately murdered for their choice of football team, people just aren't that emotionally invested in football as extremists are in their god.

Hey, we'd all like it if everyone saw things our way. Takes a bit more than that to make an extremist in my book.

The definition of extremist can vary I now realise, just to clarify my idea of a religious extremist is someone with faith, who is willing to subvert the free will of others. When I say extremist that is the kind of people I'm referring to.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
just to clarify my idea of a religious extremist is someone with faith, who is willing to subvert the free will of others. When I say extremist that is the kind of people I'm referring to.
And I'm saying the qualifier of "with faith" is not only unnecessary, but sheer bias.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
"Religion makes a fantastic scapegoat for those who refuse to see that within the hearts of all men is a darkness."

I don't know if I agree with this statement in full, but it it is apparently easier for some people to believe it's religion's fault, not human nature. That hits too close to home for them if they admit that darkness lies in every heart. They'd rather detach themselves from the "bad people" by creating a scapegoat instead of conceding that they too have the potential to have a fervent rampage.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would agree that false religion has been, and continues to be, a source of evil, whether you call it extremism or just wicked conduct. That does not mean that all religion is wicked, but most of it is. The Bible lays at the feet of false worship the blood shed on earth. "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." (Revelation 18:24) I believe there is only one true religion that truly follows the Christ. One faith out of thousands. No wonder Christ said that few would find the road to life. (Matthew 7:13,14)

 

HerDotness

Lady Babbleon
I would agree that false religion has been, and continues to be, a source of evil, whether you call it extremism or just wicked conduct. That does not mean that all religion is wicked, but most of it is.

Would you be more specific about what exactly you consider to be "false religion"? I'm especially wondering about what you think constitutes "most of it [religion]" being wicked.

I don't want to misunderstand or misperceive, and what you say here seems so very general that I really haven't any sense of what it is you're including.
 
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