• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Any Defenses of Materialism?

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Humans can change their states of mind and brain, towards good, consciously. I feel blessed that this understanding and the associated simple techniques came to me, who by parental and (mis)educational conditioning believed the opposite, for 40 years and suffered through imagination of being under control of chemical gods.

We are neither the mental states nor the brain states. We, by being mindful of the emotional states, as seer, can mitigate the adverse conditions of debilitating emotions.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I notice that for intercessory prayer only the papers that showed some positive correlation has been cited, not the far larger of papers that found no and even negative correlation resulting in larger analysis that eventually showed that there was no effect. Is this the case for all of them. When it comes to statistical signals, weak positive and negative correlation often crop up in samples which on further study, disappear. Thus by selectively citing only the positives, one can create a false impression (a problem that spans a lot of psychology and biological results that have shown poor repeatability). If enough evidence from large scale studies did throw up similar results consistently, it would be published front page and would be very big news.

Not that you care for scientific studies!

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2012/278730/
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Humans can change their states of mind and brain, towards good, consciously. I feel blessed that this understanding and the associated simple techniques came to me, who by parental and (mis)educational conditioning believed the opposite, for 40 years and suffered through imagination of being under control of chemical gods.

We are neither the mental states nor the brain states. We, by being mindful of the emotional states, as seer, can mitigate the adverse conditions of debilitating emotions.

Seconded. I can't imagine I'd make a good psychologist if I just told patients they were a slave to their situations and conditioning with no way out.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, things (i.e. Ganzfeld ESP experiments) can get repeated on five continents and by multiple labs and not be accepted by some. After thinking about this for years, I have come to believe it comes down to 'who' is the official determiner when some say 'Yes' and some say 'No'? On a controversial subject the answer is 'we are each our own determiner' and our conclusion holds sway over our jurisdiction of one person. I have also honestly concluded that some mainstream people are too emotionally attached to a materialist worldview trumping over these silly religious and superstitious types that their views are not to be trusted.

Fortunately, parapsychology experiments do not require equipment and science outside the scope of the intelligent layman. So, any intelligent layman can easily understand the arguments from all sides if he spends the time. Dr. Gary Schwartz's triple-blind experiments with allegedly gifted mediums rules out the traditional hot and cold reading hypothesis of the skeptics. And he is not the only one to have studied this mediumistic phenomena in a list that includes many prestigious scientists.

To me the really interesting evidence though is not from the laboratory, but from a serious analysis of 'beyond the normal' phenomena from the real world; things like verifiable NDE memories, verifiable details of childhood reincarnation memories, spirit communications to the living, and several other things.

So, to me, ruling over my jurisdiction of one person, I see all this philosophical and scientific debate between materialists and non-materialists on the nature of the mind to have been trumped by the real-world evidence.
I believe otherwise. To date there exists no good quality evidence for any of these phenomena. Some researchers have reported positive results, but have never been vindicated by others and have always always been shown to be due to flawed methodology.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not that you care for scientific studies!

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2012/278730/
Its widely known that religion/spirituality leads to better physical and mental health. I have never disputed that. I have practiced regular meditation for 20 years now. We are discussing the ontological basis of these practices, not their benefits which are validated through large scientific evidence (some, not all). Its the difference between saying that martial arts improves health because of how it impacts circulation and muscles and that it does so because of an invisible fluid called chi.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
According to who?
BY most scientists, including psychologists

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/may/12/psychic-claims-james-randi-paranormal



When care is taken in the method design all that we ever get are negative results. I however do support the continuation of both the Ganzfeld as well the NDE experiments by Dr. Parnia, because while the experiments have been inconclusive (some metaanalysis show no correlation and others show a slight effect) it is hoped that better quality control and statistical tools will either confirm or disconfirm the effects conclusively.

https://books.google.com/books?id=h...anzfeld ESP experiments metaanal;ysis&f=false
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a psychological term. Thought you didn't believe in psychology?
It was a joke.
I do not believe in the effectiveness of therapy as a treatment of psychological disorder over and above say home-made procedures like joining an activities group or a book club, going to church or meditation etc....all of which are quite free.

This is your discipline that you consider so scientific,

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results

A 30% replication rate is not science. Though I am not sure if the data analyzed very recent papers or well-established results of the field with at least 5-10 year pedigree.
 
Last edited:

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It was a joke.
I do not believe in the effectiveness of therapy as a treatment of psychological disorder over and above say home-made procedures like joining an activities group or a book club, going to church or meditation etc....all of which are quite free.

Well sure, you've made it clear you're some sort of modern fideist.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
BY most scientists, including psychologists

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/may/12/psychic-claims-james-randi-paranormal



When care is taken in the method design all that we ever get are negative results. I however do support the continuation of both the Ganzfeld as well the NDE experiments by Dr. Parnia, because while the experiments have been inconclusive (some metaanalysis show no correlation and others show a slight effect) it is hoped that better quality control and statistical tools will either confirm or disconfirm the effects conclusively.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hJZWCgAAQBAJ&lpg=PT202&ots=68SvDF6yol&dq=Ganzfeld ESP experiments metaanal;ysis&pg=PT202#v=onepage&q=Ganzfeld ESP experiments metaanal;ysis&f=false
How many psychologist understand parapsychology and its detailed studies? This is not something they are trained in. Those that study these phenomena scientifically are 'parapsychologists' who overwhelmingly do believe something not understood by materialist science is going on. Here is I believe a conservatively written quote by one if the leading parapsychologists, Dr. Dean Radin:

“After a century of increasingly sophisticated investigations and more than a thousand controlled studies with combined odds against chance of 10 to the 104th power to 1, there is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist. While this is an impressive statistic, all it means is that the outcomes of these experiments are definitely not due to coincidence. We’ve considered other common explanations like selective reporting and variations in experimental quality, and while those factors do moderate the overall results, there can be no little doubt that overall something interesting is going on. It seems increasingly likely that as physics continues to redefine our understanding of the fabric of reality, a theoretical outlook for a rational explanation for psi will eventually be established.”

My evaluation of the media skeptic crowd (the James Randi types), is that they are really not skeptics at all, but no-holds-barred defenders of an atheist-materialist worldview. All good researchers and parapsychologists consider themselves open-minded skeptics interested in determining the truth. The pseudo-skeptic crowd has no interest in the truth, but in discrediting anyone whose research disagrees with the atheist materialist position. The pseudo skeptics have an emotional-based position and such positions work against the spirit of science.

Readers who are interested must do their own homework in any contentious field. I have done mine I feel objectively, but of course no one is going to take my word for it. Study for youself if parapsychology is interesting to you.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Makes not a lick of sense to me. Honestly, the fundamental problem with the general question of "what is the fundamental substance that things reduce to" is that the major ideas about this are all non-falsifiable. It's philosophy. What drives me nuts is not these various positions in of themselves, but when it is posited that they are the "correct" position and that others are "wrong." That's rubbish. Build the ontology you want, and stick with it until it no longer suits.
Saying that they're "all non-falsifiable" is another way of saying that there's no justification for belief in anything beyond the material stuff that we actually have evidence for.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think that describes how I feel about the matter, too.

Sometimes talking about this stuff is more of a word game than a what is reality game. We stick the ideas into sentences and put those sentences next to other sentences and deduce that we've said something. We then ask the other person to do something similar with their preferred ideas and deduce that we are having a debate. Neither of us really knowing either position in any concrete fashion or how to proceed.
I think that if we're being fair to materialism and non-materialism, the division breaks down like this:

- materialists incorporate facts and ideas into their worldview based on what they're convinced of, and they interpret these facts to all make up one general (and perhaps messy and often counter-intuitive) whole, "the material" (or "the natural").

- non-materialists also incorporate facts and ideas into their worldview based on what they're convinced of, and they interpret these facts to make up two distinct parts of a dichotomy: "the material" and "the immaterial" (or "the natural" and "the supernatural"). Within each of these categories, things may be messy and often counter-intuitive, but there's still a clear divide between what is material and what is immaterial, and both actually exist.

So maybe it's just an aesthetic preference. At the very least, it seems to me that any claim that materialism isn't viable would have to be supported by demonstrating a real divide between "the material" and "the immaterial" in facts that are generally accepted.

Materialism definitely isn't a matter of factual bias, because any "supernatural" claim could be incorporated into a materialist worldview, whether it's ghosts, psychic ability, or the idea that our consciousness resides somewhere other than our brains. With any of these, we're talking about - if the claims are true - real effects that have manifestations in physical effects, so they could be accepted by materialist. The materialists would just presume that the effects are expressions of physical phenomena, and once the phenomena are better understood, the materialist worldview would just expand to accommodate them.

If we're being fair to both sides, then the disagreement between materialists and immaterialists should be like disagreements between biologists about whether two parts of a population form distinct subspecies, or the two "subspecies" are better understood as just examples of variation within a species that should be considered all together.

It isn't really about evidence or which claims a person is going to accept. I think too often, "materialism" is just a label that people with poor standards of evidence put on people who don't accept their claims. It's sour grapes: "he thinks my beliefs are faulty, so there must be something wrong with him."

If two people have the same standards of evidence but one is a materialist and one isn't, they'll both accept the same claims as factual; the only difference is whether they'll categorize those factual claims into one big group or two separate groups. That's it. When a materialist rejects a claim that a non-materialist accepts, it isn't about anything inherent in materialism; it's because the two people have different standards of evidence (or are privy to different information).
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Saying that they're "all non-falsifiable" is another way of saying that there's no justification for belief in anything beyond the material stuff that we actually have evidence for.

Perhaps to you it is. To others, it is not saying that at all.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please do. I can access everything for now, but I will be leaving soon, so its good to have free resources. I still do not consider your skepticism warranted.

I read your responses to my latest posts, and have thought about how best to reply all day. I realize that I have fenced myself into the position of having to provide explanations to a non-specialist concerning the nuances of and regarding the experimental methodologies and issues confronting the study of consciousness, the brain, and quantum physics. In short, to provide explanations regarding the least understood and most complicated fields of study that exist.

It is precisely this complicated nature, however (at least concerning cognition and the brain), that makes such a simplification somewhat possible. I can easily explain how the research on the neural correlates of consciousness (or any other attempts to reduce the “mind” or consciousness to neurophysiology) is plagued by fundamental issues in general and suffers from severe limitations in the extreme cases of the careful application of current experimental capacities to well-designed experiments and their subsequent analyses.

First, current brain-imaging technologies are fairly unproblematic (extremely so, actually) from a technical, engineering perspective. MRI, fMRI, and some other technologies are so exact they are used in experiments in fields like quantum computing, nanotechnology, and quantum control. However, very few scientists using these technologies to study cognition/consciousness/the “mind” are able to understand the nature of (or mathematical analysis of) the signal data generated, let along the fundamentals of the physics exploited by these instruments. Most cognitive neuroscientists lack an understanding of mathematics necessary to really understand the statistical methods they employ, and are almost completely ignorant of any physics or chemistry.

Second, even if we consider the relatively sophisticated applications of neuroimaging technologies in order to reduce the “mind” to correlated neurophysiological activity, we immediately encounter serious problems:

“Brain imaging, as the newest tool in our attempts to solve the mind-brain problem, has garnered most of the attention in this field in recent years. Unfortunately, much of the newly forthcoming body of knowledge highlights our inability to resolve certain of the most fundamental scientific controversies. The problem is that imaging techniques such as the fMRI are gradually demonstrating that however useful they are in studying neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, they are not as useful as was originally hoped in the search for brain correlates of cognitive activity. Indeed, it may not be an exaggeration to assert that the most robust conclusion to be drawn from this work is that specifically with regard to its application to the study of cognitive processes brain imaging has demonstrated that it is not doing what it is supposed to do — that is, localize modular cognitive processes in a particular place or a number of particular places on or in the brain. Furthermore, every day we learn more about potential artifacts, statistical misdirections, and other confounds that raise fundamental questions about this approach to solving the mind-brain problem.”

Uttal, W. R. (2011). Mind and Brain: A Critical Appraisal of Cognitive Neuroscience. MIT Press.

Third, neuroscience research rests upon the assumption that the mind can be reducible to the brain (or that cognition more generally can be), although this is seldom expressed (there is generally no need; the evidence that there exists a clear, causal relationship between cognition and neural activity is overwhelming and there is no evidence that the former does not depend upon the latter). That this assumption is made is unproblematic; the issue with the assumption emerges when our current inability to connect neurophysiological/computational models of neural activity with anything more than basic cognitive processes. Cognitive neuroscience research (including all fMRI and other functional neuroimaging research) depends upon the use of statistical analyses of signals (usually with various poor assumptions that plague the sciences thanks to the widespread use of NHST) to analyze proxies of neural activity far too vast for our most complicated neural population models (which are theoretical anyway, and rely upon imaging and various assumptions as well as some properties of information theory and other mathematical fields for their very existence).

In other words, mental/cognitive states/processes are defined operationally and then attempts are made to determine if a suitably unique region of the brain across subjects shows a suitably high level of activation during these predefined states/processes. No mental state or cognitive process has ever been shown to correlate consistently with ANY unique brain state, and likely will never be. Cognitive processes relate to neural processes that are constantly in flux. Also, as we lack a rather basic understanding of “the neural code”, we can’t even in principle produce models of neural activity which could be used to compare neuroimaging data to so as to allow for a kind of “idealistic” reductionism of brain activity to idealized mathematical models.

Fourth, the “consistent histories” approach to quantum theory at best excludes the necessity of a conscious observer from quantum mechanics. It is, however, fundamentally rooted in the expression of systems in terms of probabilities and thus does nothing to rid us of the correlations between measurements of systems which demonstrate (in principle 100%) correlations that satisfy your 1-4 requirements.

Fifth, I have included a bibliography I have made extremely brief so as not to overwhelm. Because my central field has been neuroscience, I have started with brain studies rather than quantum physics or the status of materialism in contemporary physics. I have tried to limit myself to one or two sources that are freely available and recent for a variety of important issues in the field. I have, with one exception, not included any books, volumes, dissertations, etc. I have tried to refer only to easily accessible material (i.e., no studies which depend crucially upon an ability to understand and/or a familiarity with the technical aspects of neuroimaging, neurodynamics, etc.).



Bennett, C. M., & Miller, M. B. (2010). How reliable are the results from functional magnetic resonance imaging?. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1191(1), 133-155.



Brett, M., Johnsrude, I. S., & Owen, A. M. (2002). The problem of functional localization in the human brain. Nature reviews neuroscience, 3(3), 243-249.

Carp, J. (2012). On the plurality of (methodological) worlds: estimating the analytic flexibility of fMRI experiments. Frontiers in neuroscience, 6, 149.

Carp, J. (2012). The secret lives of experiments: methods reporting in the fMRI literature. Neuroimage, 63(1), 289-300.

Del Pinal, G., & Nathan, M. J. (2013). There and up again: on the uses and misuses of neuroimaging in psychology. Cognitive neuropsychology, 30(4), 233-252.

Eklund, A., Nichols, T. E., & Knutsson, H. (2016). Cluster failure: Why fMRI inferences for spatial extent have inflated false-positive rates. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 201602413.

Fiedler, K. (2011). Voodoo correlations are everywhere—not only in neuroscience. Perspectives on Psychological Science, 6(2), 163-171.

Haig, B. D. (2013). Detecting psychological phenomena: Taking bottom-up research seriously. The American journal of psychology, 126(2), 135-153.

Hanson, S. J., & Bunzl, M. (Eds.). (2010). Foundational Issues in Human Brain Mapping. MIT Press.

Kievit, R. A., Romeijn, J. W., Waldorp, L. J., Wicherts, J. M., Scholte, H. S., & Borsboom, D. (2011). Modeling mind and matter: Reductionism and psychological measurement in cognitive neuroscience. Psychological Inquiry, 22(2), 139-157.

Klein, C. (2010). Images are not the evidence in neuroimaging. The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science, 61(2), 265-278.

Lavazza, A., & De Caro, M. (2010). Not so fast. On some bold neuroscientific claims concerning human agency. Neuroethics, 3(1), 23-41.

Parens, E., & Johnston, J. (2014). Neuroimaging: Beginning to appreciate its complexities. Hastings Center Report, 44(s2), S2-S7.

Petersson, K. M., Nichols, T. E., Poline, J. B., & Holmes, A. P. (1999). Statistical limitations in functional neuroimaging II. Signal detection and statistical inference. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences, 354(1387), 1261-1281.

Poldrack, R. A. (2008). The role of fMRI in cognitive neuroscience: where do we stand?. Current opinion in neurobiology, 18(2), 223-227.

Raemaekers, M., Du Plessis, S., Ramsey, N. F., Weusten, J. M. H., & Vink, M. (2012). Test–retest variability underlying fMRI measurements. Neuroimage, 60(1), 717-727.

Ramsey, J. D., Hanson, S. J., Hanson, C., Halchenko, Y. O., Poldrack, R. A., & Glymour, C. (2010). Six problems for causal inference from fMRI. neuroimage, 49(2), 1545-1558.

Rigoni, D., Kühn, S., Sartori, G., & Brass, M. (2011). Inducing disbelief in free will alters brain correlates of preconscious motor preparation the brain minds whether we believe in free will or not. Psychological science, 22(5), 613-618.

Schwartzman, A., Dougherty, R. F., Lee, J., Ghahremani, D., & Taylor, J. E. (2009). Empirical null and false discovery rate analysis in neuroimaging. Neuroimage, 44(1), 71-82.

Turkheimer, F. E., Aston, J. A., & Cunningham, V. J. (2004). On the logic of hypothesis testing in functional imaging. European journal of nuclear medicine and molecular imaging, 31(5), 725-732.

Van Horn, J. D., & Poldrack, R. A. (2009). Functional MRI at the crossroads. International Journal of Psychophysiology, 73(1), 3-9.

Vul, E., Harris, C., Winkielman, P., & Pashler, H. (2009). Puzzlingly high correlations in fMRI studies of emotion, personality, and social cognition. Perspectives on psychological science, 4(3), 274-290.

Vul, E., & Pashler, H. (2012). Voodoo and circularity errors. Neuroimage, 62(2), 945-948.

Wardlaw, J. M., O'Connell, G., Shuler, K., DeWilde, J., Haley, J., Escobar, O., ... & Schafer, B. (2011). “Can it read my mind?”–What do the public and experts think of the current (mis) uses of neuroimaging?. PloS one, 6(10), e25829.

If you can't find any copy of any of these, I'll provide them
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fortunately, parapsychology experiments do not require equipment and science outside the scope of the intelligent layman.
That's because such experiments don't utilize necessary controls, aren't well designed, fail to actually measure or define in general how one might measure that which they seek to demonstrate exist, and in general "do not require equipment", experimental methods, analyses, or approaches that are within the sciences or within the scope of the informed layperson familiar with scientific research in a relevant domain.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When care is taken in the method design all that we ever get are negative results. I however do support the continuation of both the Ganzfeld as well the NDE experiments by Dr. Parnia, because while the experiments have been inconclusive (some metaanalysis show no correlation and others show a slight effect) it is hoped that better quality control and statistical tools will either confirm or disconfirm the effects conclusively.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hJZWCgAAQBAJ&lpg=PT202&ots=68SvDF6yol&dq=Ganzfeld ESP experiments metaanal;ysis&pg=PT202#v=onepage&q=Ganzfeld ESP experiments metaanal;ysis&f=false
I don't own this edition (but rather trust he previous edition). In the edition I own, I find: "parapsychological studies are often better designed, and their results more impressive, than clinical drug trials: 'by all the normal rules for assessing scientific evidence, the case for ESP has been made. And yet most scientists still refuse to believe the findings, maintaining that ESP simply does not exist'"
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Perhaps to you it is. To others, it is not saying that at all.
It may not be what you intend, but it's the inescapable implication.

Anything that served as evidence of the existence of the "immaterial" would also serve as evidence that materialism was false.

When you say that materialism is unfalsifiable, you imply that there's no evidence whatsoever for the immaterial.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
:D
Its widely known that religion/spirituality leads to better physical and mental health. I have never disputed that. I have practiced regular meditation for 20 years now. We are discussing the ontological basis of these practices, not their benefits which are validated through large scientific evidence ......

Ontological basis of meditation practice undertaken by a 'mind' fully constrained by brain chemicals??:D Of course it is the chemicals.

(Success of pranayama, meditation, and mindfulness, OTOH, indicates the deeper ontological foundation of the seer consciousness that observes the moment to moment change of objects-thoughts. It indicates that we are the master seer consciousnesses and not the constrained thoughtful minds-bodies, that we seem to believe usually. )
 
Top