Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[roli]

"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." -- Master Je Tzu

Is this his own quote? it sure sounds like I heard this somewhere before.....!

Mat 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

 

[Sola'lor]

Is this his own quote? it sure sounds like I heard this somewhere before.....!

Mat 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Unfortunatly there are some LDS members that try and exalt themselves. The result is never good. But I think most LDS members do their best to be humble and submit to God's will.

 

[Francine]

Is this his own quote? it sure sounds like I heard this somewhere before.....!

Mat 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

That's exactly where I got it. Matthew is one of four biographies of Master Je Tzu.

 

[roli]

Sure, I believe I my Church is true. Do you believe yours is true? Why is it okay for you to believe yours is true, but it's not okay for me to believe mine is true?

I don't believe my church to be true ,I believe we teach, preach and live according to the truth of God's word and we don't bring in extra books that men have claimed to write from a divine prophetic revelation of God
That is such an open door , in our culture today,where would you draw the line.
I mean the bible was canonized by jewish / hebrew scholars,and early christians.
How have your extra books been canonized or verified or scrutinized, is there any ribbinical scholars, hebrew or jew that have have placed any authority over your books, verified it with the criteria the scholars did in determining the bible.

I believe there are a lot of different intrepratations and understandings of the word and many a church have divided over such matters.
But we don't preach anything contrary to sound doctrine as Paul says" let him be accursed" the question is, are there opposing teachings in your books.

If what we taught actually did contradict scripture, you'd have a point.

Where would you like me to begin and what book are you referring to.

We don't insist on anything. But God gives wisdom to those who ask in faith and don't already have their minds made up. Have you read the Book of Mormon or did you just decide to dispense with that part and just pray about it instead?

That's the thing ,i have the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of Truth who dwells in me as a Christian, he is my comforter, guide and who leads me into all truth.
If you have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ says he gives those who believe him and receive him ,there should be no contradictions from our bible and what all your books and the bible you use teach.

No, because I can't think of any we've changed.

What doctrine would you like to examine, sin, God,Jesus Christ ,Holy Spirit, salvation, redemption. judgement, hell.
Pick one and please share with us what your bible version speaks of it and what your other books say about it and then I will compare it with either greek or hebrew and say 5 versions of the bible, KJV NKJV,NIV ,NASB

I do worship Him in spirit and in truth. And I believe He is a spirit, too. I also believe you and I are spirits... spirits clothed in flesh. Surely you're not going to argue that Jesus ceased to be God when he was alive here on earth! There is nothing in the scriptures that says a spirit can not dwell within a physical body. Jesus is proof that it can. It is further proof that a spirit that dwells within a physical body does not automatically cease to be God

Well I agre that Jesus never ceased to be God, and that the Holy Spirit rested upon Jesus and that everything Jesus did was in the spirit, but I'm not sure I understand what your alluding to in your concluding statement.

 

[s2a]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that we don't believe Kolob to be on any star charts. On the other hand, maybe it is. Maybe everybody else just knows it by a different name.

A most gentle equivocation, I must say. ;-)

You said (to FFH):

Most of s2a's questions were not tough at all. Most of them could be answered in one sentence, without any research. Most Latter-day Saints could answer 90% of them in our sleep. I was in the middle of trying to find out how many children Joseph Smith fathered when I saw that nutshell had already posted answers to all of the questions. Consequently, I didn't bother to repeat what he had already said. There weren't too many ways of answering most of the questions.

You go girl!

I merely commented on his question about Kolob, because I think he knows darned well that we can't point it out to him on a star chart. (Well, I should say most of us can't. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you could. ).

For the record..I can't say I "know" whether or not any LDS adherent can or can not provide the coordinates as to where to look (or gaze upon) Kolob in the night skies. I know that I claim no especial revelation of it's claimed existence. I only know that I have a powerful telescope, and that I'd prefer to see "Heaven" as a star-gazing alternative to boring nebulae, "dime-a-dozen galaxy" clusters, and mundane planetary/stellar objects. If you tell me where you live (geographically), and what time (day or night) of you might wish to observe (firsthand!) the rings of Saturn, or some popularly named nebulae (like the Horsehead, or Crab), or Alpha Centauri...I can lend you exacting coordinates to observe them for yourself, just as they are (or were, to be more accurate).

And that's what's fun about astronomy...

...You need never accept my claims of some existent, distant galaxy as an article of faith, or unburdened evidential proof. I can describe--exactly--where you may look to see the same "truth" as I might readily observe it for myself.

S2a doesn't typically "go easy" on theists of any kind, but he doesn't give us any worse time than he does anybody else. In that regard he is a kind of an "equal opportunity skeptic."

For that, you get frubals.

You need to stop playing the role of being the only Latter-day Saint who is willing and able to defend your faith. Everybody here knows that's not the case.

For that too...;-)

 

[Francine]

The only worthy males hold the priesthood. Women have access to the priesthood through their husbands, fathers, or other male(hometeachers, relatives, etc.). Maybe another member can explain the relationship better.

Modern Catholic bishops don't let women do anything cool like ministry either. But in the early Church, there was a female Apostle, named Junia.

Rom.16:[7] Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

 

[Francine]

Now it's your turn (let's wait until after you've taken your turn before we comment on each other's doctrinal explanations of the others point of view).

God was once a man like us. The Father of us all dwelt on a world the same as Jesus Christ himself did. God, although now divinized, is an exalted version of his former self - a glorified man. God changes, eternally evolving into a more exalted being. The Holy Ghost is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose but are three seperate beings. Each has a different role to play in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our ruler. Jesus Christ is our savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer of all truth.

 

[Sola'lor]

I don't believe my church to be true ,I believe we teach, preach and live according to the truth of God's word and we don't bring in extra books that men have claimed to write from a divine prophetic revelation of God
That is such an open door , in our culture today,where would you draw the line.
I mean the bible was canonized by jewish / hebrew scholars,and early christians.
How have your extra books been canonized or verified or scrutinized, is there any ribbinical scholars, hebrew or jew that have have placed any authority over your books, verified it with the criteria the scholars did in determining the bible.

Our books have been canonized by prophets of God. I imagine a prophet has way more authority then a scholar.

I believe there are a lot of different intrepratations and understandings of the word and many a church have divided over such matters.
But we don't preach anything contrary to sound doctrine as Paul says" let him be accursed" the question is, are there opposing teachings in your books.

I believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I haven't seen any significant contradictions. There's probably more contradictions in within the Bible it'self than there are with with Bible and Book of Mormon.

 

[Francine]

Wow, I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the rolly-eyed smilie all the time. Last time I checked, this topic was under "debates".

Rolly-eyes are a devastating counter-argument!

 

[Sola'lor]

God was once a man like us. The Father of us all dwelt on a world the same as Jesus Christ himself did. God, although now divinized, is an exalted version of his former self - a glorified man. God changes, eternally evolving into a more exalted being. The Holy Ghost is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose but are three seperate beings. Each has a different role to play in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our ruler. Jesus Christ is our savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer of all truth.

This is intersting. I want to see where you two take this.

 

[Sola'lor]

Rolly-eyes are a devastating counter-argument!

Nothing can beat a rolly-eyes. Except maybe a fish slap. I'm not sure if we have one of those though.

 

[roli]

I see. Well, the KJV doesn't change the gospel message, so I guess I'm on safe ground.

I'm not sure if your being facetious or sarcastic here or serious

First of all, whether the Bible is complete and whether it's inspired are two different issues entirely. The Bible never even claims to be complete; as a matter of fact, it clearly states that it is not. If you want to discuss that point further, let me know. I do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

The world could not contain all the accounts of Jesus aloneand yes, there are alot of things not mentioned in the bible, but either God gave us waht we needed or he is the one who has failed

Most of us carry what we call a "quad." It contains the Holy Bible as well as our other "Standard Works." And you are again mistaken if you believe that we use it only "once in a while." We use it constantly. I don't think I've ever been to church in my life when we did not read from and learn from the Bible.

I had already mentioned you may use in your studies at church or personal, but in all my encounters on the streets or elsewhere, I have never seen the bible in the hand of a LDS brother , the only time I personally have seen this is when they are confronted with a Christian, or if someone calls for the bible to be reviewed.
I know what I have expereinced, because that was always the first question I asked, why don't you carry the bible as opposed to the book of mormon,if your christian.
Are you saying that they were all wrong in carrying their Book of Mormom.
It would make more sense to carry the bible in your hand more than the Book Mormon anyways, maybe you do that now, I don't know.
That's not important though.

Now I don't carry my scriptures wherever I go. If you were to bump into me on the street, at the grocery store or at work, you probably would find that I don't carry my scriptures. If you think that means that I don't use them daily, you're wrong.

I never said that if you'll go back to my thread where I commented on that.
Come on ,do you really have to clarify that you don't carry scripture when your shopping or at work. My point is I see the majority carry the BM more than the bible.

Well then, why don't you start a one-on-one debate to try to do so? I've suggested it at least three times now.

You pick the doctrine ,salvation, God as a husband, Jesus Christ and Lucifer,sim, hell, punishment, Holy SPIRIT

This Kat coils only when she is ready to pounce, roli. I'm jetting no where. I'm asking you to prove to me in a one-on-one debate that LDS doctrine contradicts the Bible. Put your money where your mouth is, pal

.
I was'nt obviously saying you were ,if you read the context of my thread, I was describing an encounter on the street, when a mormon is challenged in doctrine by a christian. It has happened in everyone of my conversations and I know it has happend to other well versed christians who confront them on the street.
Maybe they were all rookies ,I don't know but I had one recently almost crying crying and saying ,if you would just say the prayer and the spirit will show you truth.
I said ,I have the Holy Spirit as my helper and guide into all truth, the inner witness of his spirit to my sprit that I am the son of God and heirs to the Kingdom.
His freind had to help him gain his composure. Am I saying that about you , no.

I have no meetings scheduled, roli. Nobody is waiting for me. I'm just waiting for you.

I have been waiting for you as well, this is what I have dreamed about and prepared my whole life for...this moment.

Well, our doctrine definitely is more comprehensive than yours, if that's what you mean. But clarifying or expounding upon a teaching alluded to in the Bible is not the same thing as altering it

Remember were talking about revised doctrines of the christian chruch that have taken place in the past 200 yrs by a man with a prophecy and where there is no record of any kind of scholarly authority, canonization, accountability, standards, just one man with a revelation and some friends that beleived it.
Well, I guess we'll see if comprehensive is the word ,it sure sounds fitting.

 

[Francine]

Ah, I see, so you think she made up the whole "I met with the missionaries" thing.

Uh, yeah. That's the ticket. I never met Sister Umptyscrunch and Sister So-and-So. I don't really have a Book of Mormon, I never read it, if you asked me to turn to the book of Jacob I would be flailing through the pages for hours. Everything I know about the CoJCoLDS I learned from Mike Huckabee campaign literature.

 

[Sola'lor]

Everything I know about the CoJCoLDS I learned from Mike Huckabee campaign literature.

Hahahaha. Classic.

 

[roli]

No, that is not the case at all. I beliieve our prophet receives direct guidance from heaven on probably a daily basis. The intensity of the impressions of the Spirit may range from what some would call "inspiration" to more intense and direct "revelation". In either case, Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church is moving the Church forward through the prophet. Most of the revelations received by the current prophet are for guiding the Church and its members, as oppossed to establishing doctrine. Now, if God wants to reveal doctrine from heaven, it will come to the prophet and will be sustained by the rest of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

He hear's from God, and God can't lie, right..!!! and so your saying none of the prophets after Smith ever contradicted him, or even added or removed new doctrinal revelations and prophecies as they took control.
But is'nt it true that some of the teachings, doctrines ,writings of the original founders have changed today and throughout the years with each different new prophet.
I undersatnd men die out but is there not alot of contradiction within your own prophet circle.
Why have the prophets of Mormonism not arrived at the truth by now ,you would think that you would have arrived.

But if I were to bring up all the teachings of the past with what you practice or don't practice now, what would we see and how do you defend that.

 

[Delphine]

Sorry if these seems like a silly question, but I do wonder, if it is possible to receive and accept the gospel after death (if you have been baptized by proxy), then why worry so much about converting people in this life? 85 years of mortal life doesn't seem like much of a head start.

 

[doppelganger]

The world could not contain all the accounts of Jesus aloneand yes, there are alot of things not mentioned in the bible, but either God gave us waht we needed or he is the one who has failed

There's a third option: "God" gave us everything we needed, and THEN we failed.

YouTube - Moses Ten Commandments - Mel Brooks (go to :55).

 

[Sola'lor]

The world could not contain all the accounts of Jesus aloneand yes, there are alot of things not mentioned in the bible, but either God gave us waht we needed or he is the one who has failed.

God didn't assemble the Bible. The Bible was assembled throughout history by religious leaders and scholars as you pointed out. So if it's not complete it's not God's fault. It's their fault. I would never limit myself to the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Actually right now I'm studying the Non-biblical books. There's some very interesting stuff there that also expounds on the Bible. But that study is just a personal thing.

I had already mentioned you may use in your studies at church or personal, but in all my encounters on the streets or elsewhere, I have never seen the bible in the hand of a LDS brother , the only time I personally have seen this is when they are confronted with a Christian, or if someone calls for the bible to be reviewed.
I know what I have expereinced, because that was always the first question I asked, why don't you carry the bible as opposed to the book of mormon,if your christian.
Are you saying that they were all wrong in carrying their Book of Mormom.
It would make more sense to carry the bible in your hand more than the Book Mormon anyways, maybe you do that now, I don't know.
That's not important though.

I encountered this many times on my mission. We would tell people that we don't carry a Bible because everyone already has one. The Philippines is full of Christians. We aren't there to bring them the bible. We are there to bring them the Book of Mormon. Actually toward the end of my mission I started carrying a quad because I got one of the small ones and it was easier to carry.

You pick the doctrine ,salvation, God as a husband, Jesus Christ and Lucifer,sim, hell, punishment, Holy SPIRIT

In a way. We all pick what doctrine we want when we decide what church we want to be part of.

When a mormon is challenged in doctrine by a christian.

Odd. Mormons are Christian too.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

It has happened in everyone of my conversations and I know it has happend to other well versed christians who confront them on the street.
Maybe they were all rookies ,I don't know but I had one recently almost crying crying and saying ,if you would just say the prayer and the spirit will show you truth.
I said ,I have the Holy Spirit as my helper and guide into all truth, the inner witness of his spirit to my sprit that I am the son of God and heirs to the Kingdom.
His freind had to help him gain his composure. Am I saying that about you , no.

Were they missionaries? Missionaries are discouraged from enetering into confrontations. Confrontations have contention and contention doesn't allow the Spirit to be present.

I have the Holy Sprirt to be with me as a constant companion too.

Remember were talking about revised doctrines of the christian chruch that have taken place in the past 200 yrs by a man with a prophecy and where there is no record of any kind of scholarly authority, canonization, accountability, standards, just one man with a revelation and some friends that beleived it.
Well, I guess we'll see if comprehensive is the word ,it sure sounds fitting.

That's the thing about prophets. They don't have to have scholarly learning. They don't need to know anything. If God chooses to speak through someone He will give them what they need to know to deliver His message.

 

[tomspug]

You don't pray to Jesus Christ? But you follow his words. And you try to follow what the Holy Spirit guides you to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like service to me.

"Thou shalt not serve any other gods before me."

My point is, if you don't believe in the Trinity, then you shouldn't treat other parts of the Godhead like they are God (like other Christian denominations do). Maybe you DO treat them differently. If so, how?

And Bishka, please, you're singling me out, which is why I feel unwelcome. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm not the only one disagreeing with LDS doctrine. I've only posted, like, four times on this thread.

 

[roli]

The claim of our Church is very bold, in my opinion. It is not intended to be offensive, however. The reason our church spends so much time, effort, and money on missionary work is because we really do believe it's true and really do believe it's an important message for all of humanity, including those who are already Christian. Our message is a message of love for everyone. Why else would we spend so much effort on spreading the message to the world? If anyone thinks that our top church leaders get some special personal gain or financial bonus based on conversion rates, they are very, very, very mistaken. President Hinckley did not choose to run our Church. He was called of God and now spends nearly every waking moment working himself to the bone to spread the message of truth. The motivation is pure. Even if you don't accept the message as true, I absolutely and positively guarantee, that if you spent the time to get to know the Prophets and Apostles today, to understand them and their lives, you would agree.

I know the prophets and apotles of the bible and the truth that is withing scripture, are you saying I need to believe your prophets to be saved from my sin

Where does it place the rest of believers? I believe I have someting as a church member that other beievers do not have. They need it. God wants them to have it. The fact that I believe this, does not mean that I think I'm better than someone who does not yet have what I have.

We as born again ,spirit filled believers have Jesus as our savior ,the Holy Spirit as our witness and the scriptures, what more do we need.

Do I think you are lost or deceived? Lost? I'm not sure what that means. You have not yet found the fulness of the truth of Christ.

I have trusted Christ as my atonement for sin and believe he died rose again and sent his spirit into our hearts, that is the confirmation of the truth of Christ
What other truth are you referring to, please explain specifically.

The Lord Jesus Christ may be more pleased with the way you live your life, than he is with the way I live my life, but he still wants me to offer you the truth that I have

Whta truth that Jesus ,God and the apotsles and prophets have'nt already spoke of and I have'nt already received

. It will bless your life. You need to receive the saving ordinances, as only performed in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The sooner you do, the better off you will be.

I am blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places according to Eph.
I ahve adoption as a son of God ,I have the mind of Christ and his Holy Spirit that confirms this.
I am seated with Christ in heavely places, my name is written in the lambs book of life, I'm an heir and joint heir with Christ, how much better does it get.

These ordinances are even offered to those who have died and are in the Spirit World. Do you have any idea how much time and energy our church spends researching genealogy and performing vicarious ordinances for the dead in our temples?

The bible teaches it's appointed man to die once than be judged, there is no such thing ,eevr in scripture that says that.

Why in the world would we do this if our motivation was anything other than pure? What possible gain is there?

You can be pure in your intentions ,but you can also be purely wrong.

Are you deceived? To some extent, yes. You understand an awful lot of truth, but to whatever extent you believe in false doctrines or false biblical interpretations which developed over the centuries, to that extent you are deceived.

What doctrines are false, the biblical one's. If that's the case then were all deceived.
Listen there are not 2 truths about Christ, he was either the son of God, born into this world ,but always eternal with the father in heaven,as Jesus states many times
Or he is Lucifer's brother which goes against any biblical interpretation.
Only one of us are correct, he can't be both

Does that mean that I think I know more than you? Sometimes, yes, and sometimes, no. You may have a better understanding of parts of the Bible than I do and you may have better insights than I do into some profound scriptural meanings. I assume I could learn a lot from you and other Christians in this regard. However, I believe there are some important things that I understand that you do not.

It's not about who knows more it's always about truth

This would be things concerning the nature of the Godhead, the plan of salvation, the necessity of priesthood and other things only taught in my church.

But such topics go against mainstream judeo Christian scripture, does that not concern you.
Who was Paul and Jesus talking about regarding false prophets,teachers,and doctrine coming into the church. You or us...!

Are we better than other people simply because we belong to the true restored Church of Jesus Christ? Absolutely not

I'm sure you say that ,but one can not feel empowered when they claim they belong to the true church of God ,making every other church fail in comparision to you.
We don't believe we are the restored true chruch ,we align ourselves up to what jesus taught concerning what the church is.